BoxRec

keithmoonhangover wrote:

Giancarlo wrote:

keithmoonhangover wrote: He defeated the reigning champion in Valuev.

He defeated his #1 and overdue mandatory contender in Ruiz - he HAD to take that fight or he would have been stripped.

He had an easy defence, like most heavyweight's in history have done.

Then he lost to the best heavyweight in the world.

Doesn't sound like a fraud to me.

Awesome spin, Keith.

Where would you rank the great man as heavyweight champion?

In between Ali and Louis?

The fight against Harrison was a disgrace. Make no mistake about that. But it was no worse than Bowe fighting Ferguson and Dokes.

But Haye is no BOWE, BOWe went 2-1 against HOLYFIELD.

THE MESSIAH wrote:

keithmoonhangover wrote:

Giancarlo wrote:
Awesome spin, Keith.

Where would you rank the great man as heavyweight champion?

In between Ali and Louis?

The fight against Harrison was a disgrace. Make no mistake about that. But it was no worse than Bowe fighting Ferguson and Dokes.

But Haye is no BOWE, BOWe went 2-1 against HOLYFIELD.

He did, but Bowe also REFUSED to fight Lennox Lewis. Classy.

exittored wrote:

mkirkhope wrote:

TheCobra wrote: LMAO *imagines finding a WBC silver belt in a xmas cracker. WBC 'SIlver' belt, what on earth is the world coming to.

Is Stiverne not the guy that calls himself B:Ware or something cheesy like that?

Yeah like Dr Steelhammer isn't cheesey...Bermine just happens to be one of the hardest punchers in the whole heavyweight division and better then some of the crapola the Klitschko's have faced over the last few years.

Fighting Stiverne in America on HBO September/October for the WBC Mandatory position is the smartest move Haye can make if he decides to continue boxing.

Stiverne was knocked out by an 11-15 journeyman four years ago, held to a draw by a 17-17 journeyman two years ago, made a past it Ray Austin look like Larry Holmes for 9 rounds just a few weeks ago, and has never defeated a top 25 opponent. He has been mediocre throughout his entire pro career and isn't better than Briggs, Johnson, Sosnowski or even the version of Austin that fought Wlad, let alone legit top 10 opponents like Arreaola, Chagaev, Haye, Chambers, Peter, Thompson, Gomez, and Solis.

keithmoonhangover wrote:

THE MESSIAH wrote:

keithmoonhangover wrote: The fight against Harrison was a disgrace. Make no mistake about that. But it was no worse than Bowe fighting Ferguson and Dokes.

But Haye is no BOWE, BOWe went 2-1 against HOLYFIELD.

He did, but Bowe also REFUSED to fight Lennox Lewis. Classy.

No worse than Ferguson and Dokes.... Michael Dokes was a 34 ex world champion who had lost to just 3 guys..... He was possibly in the top ten at the time of the fight.

Jesse Ferguson was a journeyman, who had just beaten one of the leading contenders and danger man of the devision..... He should have been in the top ten following the Mercer win.

Harrison was a joke.... Ferguson can be considered something similar to Danny Williams receiving his shot on the back of beating Tyson.... no one here said Danny didn't deserve it and was a joke challenger.

crusader wrote:

exittored wrote:

mkirkhope wrote: Is Stiverne not the guy that calls himself B:Ware or something cheesy like that?

Yeah like Dr Steelhammer isn't cheesey...Bermine just happens to be one of the hardest punchers in the whole heavyweight division and better then some of the crapola the Klitschko's have faced over the last few years.

Fighting Stiverne in America on HBO September/October for the WBC Mandatory position is the smartest move Haye can make if he decides to continue boxing.

Stiverne was knocked out by an 11-15 journeyman four years ago, held to a draw by a 17-17 journeyman two years ago, made a past it Ray Austin look like Larry Holmes for 9 rounds just a few weeks ago, and never defeated a top 25 opponent. He has been mediocre throughout his entire pro career and isn't better than Briggs, Johnson, Sosnowski or even the version of Austin that fought Wlad, let alone legit top 10 opponents like Arreaola, Chagaev, Haye, Chambers, Peter, Thompson, Gomez, and Solis.

First of all Ray Austin is a spoiler and crafty so can make most heavyweights look bad and the Charles Davis fight was one of those lazy performances from Bermane that have cost him in the past too.

How do you know he isn't better then Johnson, Sosonowski or Briggs...i'll tell you how because you don't and he'd certainly beat the likes of Sosonowski, the Rahman that faced Wladimir and have a good chance against Peter, Thompson and Arreola as all he needs is to land one punch to end a fight.

Anyway back to the point of this thread. Bermane Stiverne is the man Haye needs to target in the Autumn to get that WBC Mandatory position and therefore be able to fight Vitali Klitscho summer 2012 as he'll have to make a Mandatory defence by then and obviously there won't be any rematch clauses attached to the fight either.

Looking at it from Haye's point of view, he thought he'd be basking in the glory right now, his career capped, retirement beckoning. To go from that place to having to reset your goals and recapture the hunger you were supposed to have quenched with a win over Wlad seems impossibly hard.

To have to fight guys you were deriding not so long ago, who have an excellent chance of beating you, further compounding your misery.

Povetkin, Solis, Arreola... could all end in absolute disaster.

Then there's Vitali. I'd like to hear what Booth thinks of that match, after Saturday.

Personally, I think Haye would have more success landing on Vitali than he did Wlad, but it won't be enough to keep Vitali honest, he'll just take his licks and dish out his own, giving Haye no room to reset. As much as I like Haye, he doesn't win that argument unless he lands something very special.

Part of me wants him to earn another crack at Wlad, beat a contender or two at the head of the queue and then start beating the rematch drum.

31 is young in heavyweight terms and there are some positives to take away from the Klitschko fight, his two most prominent flaws, punch resistance and stamina both saw him proud, he was able to reach Klitschko and touch him up on more than one occassion, he just wasn't able to land that one peach that made the difference. Maybe a rematch would see a different outcome, Klitschko outworked him, he didn't outclass him.

The other part of me realises that hindsight's a bit*h when it comes to this sport. Haye could be ending his career on a much more devestating note than this.

Retiring might better serve his legacy than taking another run at it imo, maybe I'm underestimating Haye though.

exittored wrote:

crusader wrote:

exittored wrote: Yeah like Dr Steelhammer isn't cheesey...Bermine just happens to be one of the hardest punchers in the whole heavyweight division and better then some of the crapola the Klitschko's have faced over the last few years.

Fighting Stiverne in America on HBO September/October for the WBC Mandatory position is the smartest move Haye can make if he decides to continue boxing.

Stiverne was knocked out by an 11-15 journeyman four years ago, held to a draw by a 17-17 journeyman two years ago, made a past it Ray Austin look like Larry Holmes for 9 rounds just a few weeks ago, and never defeated a top 25 opponent. He has been mediocre throughout his entire pro career and isn't better than Briggs, Johnson, Sosnowski or even the version of Austin that fought Wlad, let alone legit top 10 opponents like Arreaola, Chagaev, Haye, Chambers, Peter, Thompson, Gomez, and Solis.

First of all Ray Austin is a spoiler and crafty so can make most heavyweights look bad and the Charles Davis fight was one of those lazy performances from Bermane that have cost him in the past too.

How do you know he isn't better then Johnson, Sosonowski or Briggs...i'll tell you how because you don't and he'd certainly beat the likes of Sosonowski, the Rahman that faced Wladimir and have a good chance against Peter, Thompson and Arreola as all he needs is to land one punch to end a fight.

Anyway back to the point of this thread. Bermane Stiverne is the man Haye needs to target in the Autumn to get that WBC Mandatory position and therefore be able to fight Vitali Klitscho summer 2012 as he'll have to make a Mandatory defence by then and obviously there won't be any rematch clauses attached to the fight either.

Stiverne's best wins are over Kerston Manswell and a shot Ray Austin, so he hasn't done anything to suggest that he is better than Briggs, Johnson, Sosnowski are/were. Sosnowski fought on par with Dimitrenko---a top ten opponent, unlike Stiverne---for 11 rounds--and his best results are relatively similiar to Stiverne's best results, so I don't see a Stiverne win as a foregone conclusion.

Peter (the pre Wlad II version), Arreola, and Thompson would all be strong favorites against Stiverne. They have fought at a higher level, had success at a higher level, and none of them would be clearly outboxed for 9 rounds by a washed up Ray Austin. Sure, Stiverne has power, but it took him ten rounds to take out his first half decent opponent, so don't count on him doing the same to a world class opponent who can take a good shot.

Does Stiverne want to risk his mandatory spot? He will be set to make a very nice wage against Vitali (Solis made almost $2 million US) and a title will be on the line.

crusader wrote:

exittored wrote:

crusader wrote: Stiverne was knocked out by an 11-15 journeyman four years ago, held to a draw by a 17-17 journeyman two years ago, made a past it Ray Austin look like Larry Holmes for 9 rounds just a few weeks ago, and never defeated a top 25 opponent. He has been mediocre throughout his entire pro career and isn't better than Briggs, Johnson, Sosnowski or even the version of Austin that fought Wlad, let alone legit top 10 opponents like Arreaola, Chagaev, Haye, Chambers, Peter, Thompson, Gomez, and Solis.

First of all Ray Austin is a spoiler and crafty so can make most heavyweights look bad and the Charles Davis fight was one of those lazy performances from Bermane that have cost him in the past too.

How do you know he isn't better then Johnson, Sosonowski or Briggs...i'll tell you how because you don't and he'd certainly beat the likes of Sosonowski, the Rahman that faced Wladimir and have a good chance against Peter, Thompson and Arreola as all he needs is to land one punch to end a fight.

Anyway back to the point of this thread. Bermane Stiverne is the man Haye needs to target in the Autumn to get that WBC Mandatory position and therefore be able to fight Vitali Klitscho summer 2012 as he'll have to make a Mandatory defence by then and obviously there won't be any rematch clauses attached to the fight either.

Stiverne's best wins are over Kerston Manswell and a shot Ray Austin, so he hasn't done anything to suggest that he is better than Briggs, Johnson, Sosnowski are/were. Sosnowski fought on par with Dimitrenko---a top ten opponent, unlike Stiverne---for 11 rounds--and his best results are relatively similiar to Stiverne's best results, so I don't see a Stiverne win as a foregone conclusion.

Peter (the pre Wlad II version), Arreola, and Thompson would all be strong favorites against Stiverne. They have fought at a higher level, had success at a higher level, and none of them would be clearly outboxed for 9 rounds by a washed up Ray Austin. Sure, Stiverne has power, but it took him ten rounds to take out his first half decent opponent, so don't count on him doing the same to a world class opponent who can take a good shot.

Does Stiverne want to risk his mandatory spot? He will be set to make a very nice wage against Vitali (Solis made almost $2 million US) and a title will be on the line.

Ray Austin isn't shot, just old and apart from Wlad and Solis he hadn't been beaten since 2002. Dimentrenko hasn't beaten anyone of note so i don't even know why you'd have him in the Top 10, neither has Sosnowski who a few years back was nearly knocked out by Zuri Lawrence! Briggs is just a punchbag now and unless he lands with one of his wild swings has nothing else going for him, Johnson has no wins of note and i was talking about the Peter that faced Wlad second fight who is just a fat lazy bum.

David Haye has made around £20 million pounds in his last few fights, i'm sure if he was really headstrong about finding some kind of redemption he could make Stiverne an offer he couldn't refuse and i'm sure Bermane would take it thinking he could knock out Haye and collect a big paycheck and then face Vitali for another big paycheck.

exittored wrote:

crusader wrote:

exittored wrote: First of all Ray Austin is a spoiler and crafty so can make most heavyweights look bad and the Charles Davis fight was one of those lazy performances from Bermane that have cost him in the past too.

How do you know he isn't better then Johnson, Sosonowski or Briggs...i'll tell you how because you don't and he'd certainly beat the likes of Sosonowski, the Rahman that faced Wladimir and have a good chance against Peter, Thompson and Arreola as all he needs is to land one punch to end a fight.

Anyway back to the point of this thread. Bermane Stiverne is the man Haye needs to target in the Autumn to get that WBC Mandatory position and therefore be able to fight Vitali Klitscho summer 2012 as he'll have to make a Mandatory defence by then and obviously there won't be any rematch clauses attached to the fight either.

Stiverne's best wins are over Kerston Manswell and a shot Ray Austin, so he hasn't done anything to suggest that he is better than Briggs, Johnson, Sosnowski are/were. Sosnowski fought on par with Dimitrenko---a top ten opponent, unlike Stiverne---for 11 rounds--and his best results are relatively similiar to Stiverne's best results, so I don't see a Stiverne win as a foregone conclusion.

Peter (the pre Wlad II version), Arreola, and Thompson would all be strong favorites against Stiverne. They have fought at a higher level, had success at a higher level, and none of them would be clearly outboxed for 9 rounds by a washed up Ray Austin. Sure, Stiverne has power, but it took him ten rounds to take out his first half decent opponent, so don't count on him doing the same to a world class opponent who can take a good shot.

Does Stiverne want to risk his mandatory spot? He will be set to make a very nice wage against Vitali (Solis made almost $2 million US) and a title will be on the line.

Ray Austin isn't shot, just old and apart from Wlad and Solis he hadn't been beaten since 2002. Dimentrenko hasn't beaten anyone of note so i don't even know why you'd have him in the Top 10, neither has Sosnowski who a few years back was nearly knocked out by Zuri Lawrence FFS! Briggs is just a punchbag now when faced with anyone outside the top 50, Johnson has wins of note and i was talking about the Peter that faced Wlad second fight who is just a fat lazy bum.

David Haye has made around £20 million pounds in his last few fights, i'm sure if he was really headstrong about finding some kind of redemption he could make Stiverne an offer he couldn't refuse and i'm sure Bermane would take it thinking he could knock out Haye and collect a big paycheck and then face Vitali for another big paycheck.

Dimitrenko is ranked #8 by The Ring, Fightnews, and Boxrec, and is at worst a consensus top 15 heavyweight. This is because he has scored has several wins over opponents who were top 25ish at the time--something which can't be said about Stiverne. Sosnowski was never close to getting stopped by Zuri Lawrence, and your assertion that he was makes me think that you are joking or didn't watch the fight. Besides, Lawrence is a better fighter than Demtrius King (who actually knocked Stiverne out) and Charles Davis.

As for Peter, he was not a "fat lazy bumb" when he rematched Wlad. On the contrary, Peter was still ranked in the top ten by The Ring, he was the fourth lightest he had been in 8 years, and he was coming off a second round KO of Nagy Aguilera (who had just iced Maskaev in 1)—a much better result than a second round KO of BoxRec's #182 heavyweight, Kerston Manswell.

I understand your point about Stiverne, but I find it unlikely that he is offered enough to give up the huge payday/title shot combo. I'm not even sure if HBO would accept him as an opponent given how crappy he looked against Austin. The HBO commentators said that Austin was making him look like an amateur, and they were still very unimpressed with Stiiverne when he turned things around.

crusader wrote:

exittored wrote:

crusader wrote: First of all Ray Austin is a spoiler and crafty so can make most heavyweights look bad and the Charles Davis fight was one of those lazy performances from Bermane that have cost him in the past too.

How do you know he isn't better then Johnson, Sosonowski or Briggs...i'll tell you how because you don't and he'd certainly beat the likes of Sosonowski, the Rahman that faced Wladimir and have a good chance against Peter, Thompson and Arreola as all he needs is to land one punch to end a fight.

Anyway back to the point of this thread. Bermane Stiverne is the man Haye needs to target in the Autumn to get that WBC Mandatory position and therefore be able to fight Vitali Klitscho summer 2012 as he'll have to make a Mandatory defence by then and obviously there won't be any rematch clauses attached to the fight either.

Stiverne's best wins are over Kerston Manswell and a shot Ray Austin, so he hasn't done anything to suggest that he is better than Briggs, Johnson, Sosnowski are/were. Sosnowski fought on par with Dimitrenko---a top ten opponent, unlike Stiverne---for 11 rounds--and his best results are relatively similiar to Stiverne's best results, so I don't see a Stiverne win as a foregone conclusion.

Peter (the pre Wlad II version), Arreola, and Thompson would all be strong favorites against Stiverne. They have fought at a higher level, had success at a higher level, and none of them would be clearly outboxed for 9 rounds by a washed up Ray Austin. Sure, Stiverne has power, but it took him ten rounds to take out his first half decent opponent, so don't count on him doing the same to a world class opponent who can take a good shot.

Does Stiverne want to risk his mandatory spot? He will be set to make a very nice wage against Vitali (Solis made almost $2 million US) and a title will be on the line.

Ray Austin isn't shot, just old and apart from Wlad and Solis he hadn't been beaten since 2002. Dimentrenko hasn't beaten anyone of note so i don't even know why you'd have him in the Top 10, neither has Sosnowski who a few years back was nearly knocked out by Zuri Lawrence FFS! Briggs is just a punchbag now when faced with anyone outside the top 50, Johnson has wins of note and i was talking about the Peter that faced Wlad second fight who is just a fat lazy bum.

David Haye has made around £20 million pounds in his last few fights, i'm sure if he was really headstrong about finding some kind of redemption he could make Stiverne an offer he couldn't refuse and i'm sure Bermane would take it thinking he could knock out Haye and collect a big paycheck and then face Vitali for another big paycheck.

Dimitrenko is ranked #8 by The Ring, Fightnews, and Boxrec, and is at worst a consensus top 15 heavyweight. This is because he has scored has several wins over opponents who were top 25ish at the time--something which can't be said about Stiverne. Sosnowski was never close to getting stopped by Zuri Lawrence, and your assertion that he was makes me think that you are joking or didn't watch the fight. Besides, Lawrence is a better fighter than Demtrius King (who actually knocked Stiverne out) and Charles Davis.

As for Peter, he was not a "fat lazy bumb" when he rematched Wlad. On the contrary, Peter was still ranked in the top ten by The Ring, he was the fourth lightest he had been in 8 years, and he was coming off a second round KO of Nagy Aguilera (who had just iced Maskaev in 1)—a much better result than a second round KO of BoxRec's #182 heavyweight, Kerston Manswell.

I understand your point about Stiverne, but I find it unlikely that he is offered enough to give up the huge payday/title shot combo. I'm not even sure if HBO would accept him as an opponent given how crappy he looked against Austin. The HBO commentators said that Austin was making him look like an amateur, and were still very unimpressed with Stiiverne when he turned things around.[/quote]

Well there's no point continuing whether or not Stiverne beats a bunch of bums/has beens of the Heavyweight division apart from saying they're all poor and the the Heavweight division is crap which is stating the obvious.

HBO would accept Stiverne as an opponent if matched with David Haye, he may have looked poor against Austin but he finished the job with a KO which saved him for another day. As i said it's really up to Haye to make him a fantastic offer which would match what he would make against Vitali and then some, it'd be a risk but one that could bring him much more money in the future and i'm sure Stiverne would think he could beat Haye so would take the risk.

Apparently negotiations have begun for a WBA "regular" title fight between Chagaev and Povetkin. Could Haye target the new "world champ"?

http://www.BS.com/povetkin-vs- ... ght--41200

Move to Germany, pick up vacant WBO belt at airport baggage reclaim, then fill the void left by Sven Ottke and make hundreds of "world title" defences in front of huge silent appreciative crowds, who absolutely love to see safetly first performances, 10 or so punches per round, and lots of complaining to house referee.

keithmoonhangover wrote:
You're not a Haye fan clearly.

Anyone who still is, clearly must enjoy that feeling of being shafted.

King Geedorah wrote:Did someone compare an admittedly past his prime Mike ‘No Jokes’ Dokes to a never had a prime Audley Harrison? If so, then we can safely say that the Haye debate has jumped the shark.

Dokes is a dude. Sure, he was done when Bowe did him but the big man was still swinging away when having his head taken off by Ruddock and Riddick.

I really do like Audley, I really do, but there is really no comparison, really.

Get up, get, get, get down, 1988-era Dokes ain’t no joke in this town.

P.E. in full effect BOYZ!!

THE MESSIAH wrote:
But Haye is no BOWE, BOWe went 2-1 against HOLYFIELD.

...and a peak Holyfield

The more you re-cap on Holyfields career ... the more you realize he has never got the full credit the GREAT fighter has ever recieved.
I place Holyfield above Ali.
Certainly there were past champions who could have beaten him. But I would place him as beating more past champions than any other through the divisions history.

tonyevs wrote:

THE MESSIAH wrote:
But Haye is no BOWE, BOWe went 2-1 against HOLYFIELD.

...and a peak Holyfield

The more you re-cap on Holyfields career ... the more you realize he has never got the full credit the GREAT fighter has ever recieved.
I place Holyfield above Ali.
Certainly there were past champions who could have beaten him. But I would place him as beating more past champions than any other through the divisions history.

Is it April the 1st?

keithmoonhangover wrote:

tonyevs wrote:

THE MESSIAH wrote:
But Haye is no BOWE, BOWe went 2-1 against HOLYFIELD.

...and a peak Holyfield

The more you re-cap on Holyfields career ... the more you realize he has never got the full credit the GREAT fighter has ever recieved.
I place Holyfield above Ali.
Certainly there were past champions who could have beaten him. But I would place him as beating more past champions than any other through the divisions history.

Is it April the 1st?

Ok .. your opinion.

But explain .. if you can??

tonyevs wrote:

keithmoonhangover wrote:

tonyevs wrote:
...and a peak Holyfield

The more you re-cap on Holyfields career ... the more you realize he has never got the full credit the GREAT fighter has ever recieved.
I place Holyfield above Ali.
Certainly there were past champions who could have beaten him. But I would place him as beating more past champions than any other through the divisions history.

Is it April the 1st?

Ok .. your opinion.

But explain .. if you can??

I love Holyfield, he's one of my favourite fighters of all time, so I'm not hating on him.

Jack Johnson would take him out late in a defensive display.

Jack Dempsey would have dragged him into a tear up and stopped him in an exciting fight

Joe Louis would have beaten him with ease.

Marciano loses to Holyfield

Ali wins a wide decision - if it gets that far.

I've got more if you want it.

keithmoonhangover wrote:

tonyevs wrote:

keithmoonhangover wrote: Is it April the 1st?

Ok .. your opinion.

But explain .. if you can??

I love Holyfield, he's one of my favourite fighters of all time, so I'm not hating on him.

Jack Johnson would take him out late in a defensive display.

Jack Dempsey would have dragged him into a tear up and stopped him in an exciting fight

Joe Louis would have beaten him with ease.

Marciano loses to Holyfield

Ali wins a wide decision - if it gets that far.

I've got more if you want it.

Please no more..

As soon as you mentioned Jack Johnson - and knowing how much quality film, or lack of thats about of him exists - I knew where you were coming from. And don`t have time to waste

I bet you argue Harry Grebs position as number 1 middleweight also

tonyevs wrote:

keithmoonhangover wrote:

tonyevs wrote: Ok .. your opinion.

But explain .. if you can??

I love Holyfield, he's one of my favourite fighters of all time, so I'm not hating on him.

Jack Johnson would take him out late in a defensive display.

Jack Dempsey would have dragged him into a tear up and stopped him in an exciting fight

Joe Louis would have beaten him with ease.

Marciano loses to Holyfield

Ali wins a wide decision - if it gets that far.

I've got more if you want it.

Please no more..

As soon as you mentioned Jack Johnson - and knowing how much quality film, or lack of thats about of him exists - I knew where you were coming from. And don`t have time to waste

I bet you argue Harry Grebs position as number 1 middleweight also

Nope. Robinson is top. But Ketchel is above Greb.

Holyfield over Ali though mate. Come on, don't mug yourself, it embarrasing.

keithmoonhangover wrote:

tonyevs wrote:

keithmoonhangover wrote: I love Holyfield, he's one of my favourite fighters of all time, so I'm not hating on him.

Jack Johnson would take him out late in a defensive display.

Jack Dempsey would have dragged him into a tear up and stopped him in an exciting fight

Joe Louis would have beaten him with ease.

Marciano loses to Holyfield

Ali wins a wide decision - if it gets that far.

I've got more if you want it.

Please no more..

As soon as you mentioned Jack Johnson - and knowing how much quality film, or lack of thats about of him exists - I knew where you were coming from. And don`t have time to waste

I bet you argue Harry Grebs position as number 1 middleweight also

Nope. Robinson is top. But Ketchel is above Greb.

Holyfield over Ali though mate. Come on, don't mug yourself, it embarrasing.

How many months have you been following boxing?

seriously though ..

You need to do some research on your old-timers my friend ...
Robinson was indeed arguably the best fighter EVER ... but .. well just do some research and find out for yourself .
Its a great era in boxing during that time, and hopefully you will uncover some wellknown truths not always correctly remembered in todays boxing articles ... if you know what I mean?

tonyevs wrote:

keithmoonhangover wrote:

tonyevs wrote: Please no more..

As soon as you mentioned Jack Johnson - and knowing how much quality film, or lack of thats about of him exists - I knew where you were coming from. And don`t have time to waste

I bet you argue Harry Grebs position as number 1 middleweight also

Nope. Robinson is top. But Ketchel is above Greb.

Holyfield over Ali though mate. Come on, don't mug yourself, it embarrasing.

How many months have you been following boxing?

seriously though ..

You need to do some research on your old-timers my friend ...
Robinson was indeed arguably the best fighter EVER ... but .. well just do some research and find out for yourself .
Its a great era in boxing during that time, and hopefully you will uncover some wellknown truths not always correctly remembered in todays boxing articles ... if you know what I mean?

I've been watching and following boxing for 34 years and I know my stuff mate.

Opinions are opinions, but you saying Holyfield rates above Ali is far more far fetched than Johnson beating Holyfield.

keithmoonhangover wrote: I've been watching and following boxing for 34 years and I know my stuff mate.

.

ok ..

I`ll have to take your word on that

There are some great books on these era`s ... and every boxing fan needs to start a good old collection of BN from the era they like to quote great fighters from.

Let him fight Mike Perez!!!

tonyevs wrote:

keithmoonhangover wrote: I've been watching and following boxing for 34 years and I know my stuff mate.

.

ok ..

I`ll have to take your word on that

There are some great books on these era`s ... and every boxing fan needs to start a good old collection of BN from the era they like to quote great fighters from.

They say that when you assume something, that is makes an ass of u and me and in your case it's true. You are assuming that I don't have a great deal of knowledge about boxing.

I have over 100 hardback books about boxing that start as far back as the bareknuckle days.

I not saying I know more than anyone else, but I know enough.

Next lecture please.