BoxRec

raylawpc wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

raylawpc wrote:

zzzzzz

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zzzzzz[/quote]

bengulnaci1 wrote:Very underrated fighter.

Good boxing skills and impressive punching power.

Loses to Larry Holmes(TKO11), Mike Tyson(TKO4) & Vitali Klitshko(UD12).

Could win and lose against Evander Holyfield (either L12 Dec or W TKO8) & Lennox Lewis (L12 Dec or KO6).

Would win against David Haye (TKO8).

I have to say (sorry Ray), in my opinion, Lyle did tend to tire but that didn't mean he was any less dangerous, just less active.

I just watched Ali-Lyle again, and I still don't think Lyle "was gassed" against Ali. Here's the Youtube for the last three rounds:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9-7Qrr7 ... re=related

The 11th starts at 6:59. Look who's dancing . . . Lyle. Not Ali. Simply put, Lyle got tagged. I will admit that I might have been wrong with something else regarding this fight. For years, I've believed Ferd Hernandez stopped it too soon. After watching it this time. I think Ferd was right to stop it.

Here's the last half of Lyle-Foreman:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgFABFKMo-E

Although both men are tired, I think it is as much a result of the punishment they both received as it is from being "gassed." I think getting hit multiple times on the chin by George Foreman would tend to have that effect on you.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

raylawpc wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

zzzzzz

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raylawpc wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

raylawpc wrote:

zzzzzz

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raylawpc wrote:

bengulnaci1 wrote:Very underrated fighter.

Good boxing skills and impressive punching power.

Loses to Larry Holmes(TKO11), Mike Tyson(TKO4) & Vitali Klitshko(UD12).

Could win and lose against Evander Holyfield (either L12 Dec or W TKO8) & Lennox Lewis (L12 Dec or KO6).

Would win against David Haye (TKO8).

I have to say (sorry Ray), in my opinion, Lyle did tend to tire but that didn't mean he was any less dangerous, just less active.

I just watched Ali-Lyle again, and I still don't think Lyle "was gassed" against Ali. Here's the Youtube for the last three rounds:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9-7Qrr7 ... re=related

The 11th starts at 6:59. Look who's dancing . . . Lyle. Not Ali. Simply put, Lyle got tagged. I will admit that I might have been wrong with something else regarding this fight. For years, I've believed Ferd Hernandez stopped it too soon. After watching it this time. I think Ferd was right to stop it.

Here's the last half of Lyle-Foreman:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgFABFKMo-E

Although both men are tired, I think it is as much a result of the punishment they both received as it is from being "gassed." I think getting hit multiple times on the chin by George Foreman would tend to have that effect on you.

You've pretty much wiped out any discussion in here. No need to pick it back up.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

raylawpc wrote:

bengulnaci1 wrote:Very underrated fighter.

Good boxing skills and impressive punching power.

Loses to Larry Holmes(TKO11), Mike Tyson(TKO4) & Vitali Klitshko(UD12).

Could win and lose against Evander Holyfield (either L12 Dec or W TKO8) & Lennox Lewis (L12 Dec or KO6).

Would win against David Haye (TKO8).

I have to say (sorry Ray), in my opinion, Lyle did tend to tire but that didn't mean he was any less dangerous, just less active.

I just watched Ali-Lyle again, and I still don't think Lyle "was gassed" against Ali. Here's the Youtube for the last three rounds:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9-7Qrr7 ... re=related

The 11th starts at 6:59. Look who's dancing . . . Lyle. Not Ali. Simply put, Lyle got tagged. I will admit that I might have been wrong with something else regarding this fight. For years, I've believed Ferd Hernandez stopped it too soon. After watching it this time. I think Ferd was right to stop it.

Here's the last half of Lyle-Foreman:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgFABFKMo-E

Although both men are tired, I think it is as much a result of the punishment they both received as it is from being "gassed." I think getting hit multiple times on the chin by George Foreman would tend to have that effect on you.

You've pretty much wiped out any discussion in here. No need to pick it back up.

zzzzzz

raylawpc wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

raylawpc wrote: I just watched Ali-Lyle again, and I still don't think Lyle "was gassed" against Ali. Here's the Youtube for the last three rounds:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9-7Qrr7 ... re=related

The 11th starts at 6:59. Look who's dancing . . . Lyle. Not Ali. Simply put, Lyle got tagged. I will admit that I might have been wrong with something else regarding this fight. For years, I've believed Ferd Hernandez stopped it too soon. After watching it this time. I think Ferd was right to stop it.

Here's the last half of Lyle-Foreman:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgFABFKMo-E

Although both men are tired, I think it is as much a result of the punishment they both received as it is from being "gassed." I think getting hit multiple times on the chin by George Foreman would tend to have that effect on you.

You've pretty much wiped out any discussion in here. No need to pick it back up.

zzzzzz

Who knew a discussion of Ron Lyle would become so heated.

I miss Granberry

I hope the old man is still with us.

He was great foil.

ThatOne wrote:Who knew a discussion of Ron Lyle would become so heated.

I miss Granberry

I hope the old man is still with us.

He was great foil.

I didn't think it was heated. I slept through most of it.

ThatOne wrote:Larry Holmes

Mike Tyson

Evander Holyfield

Lennox Lewis

Vitali Klitshko

David Haye

He loses to almost all of them, except for Haye.

ThatOne wrote:Who knew a discussion of Ron Lyle would become so heated.

I miss Granberry

I hope the old man is still with us.

He was great foil.

I think Granberry was banned, but yeah, I do hope the old fellow is still with us.

Evander was not a big HW puncher, the guy threw the kitchen sink at fighter after fighter and they kept taking it. Stewart, Cooper, Czyz . . these wern't guys with concrete jaws and Holyfield absolutely NAILED them with shot after shot with them still coming forward. If Lyle got 3-4 clean shots on these guys, they are down on the canvas, without question.

Also speaking of the size, Evander had to maintain a strict diet and training regime to get up to 215. If he were just an average joe on a normal diet, he'd be walking around at 200 lbs or less. Lyle was a guy who between fights was up in the 230s+ and trained DOWN to 215-220. He was clearly the naturally bigger man.

Funny how you go on and on about size meaning nothing with your beloved Dempsey yet here you're focused on 10 pounds being a major difference between Heavyweights. They had virtually the same height and reach. Like i said, if Lyle was slightly bigger it was quite insignificant and nowhere near the difference between Holyfield and Bowe.

It's also puzzling that you portray Lyle as this guy who could take down a building with one swat but Shavers & Mathis are really his only stoppages of note. He could definitely punch, but nothing that Evander hasn't seen before. Lyle didn't beat that level fighter, and he wouldn't beat Holy either. No matter how it was contested and no matter how many times they fought. He would always lose.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Funny how you go on and on about size meaning nothing with your beloved Dempsey yet here you're focused on 10 pounds being a major difference between Heavyweights. They had virtually the same height and reach. Like i said, if Lyle was slightly bigger it was quite insignificant and nowhere near the difference between Holyfield and Bowe.

It's also puzzling that you portray Lyle as this guy who could take down a building with one swat but Shavers & Mathis are really his only stoppages of note. He could definitely punch, but nothing that Evander hasn't seen before. Lyle didn't beat that level fighter, and he wouldn't beat Holy either. No matter how it was contested and no matter how many times they fought. He would always lose.

While I agree that Holyfield would be a pretty big favorite against Lyle, it's pretty silly to say that he could beat him every time they fought. Holyfield was hittable and and inconsistent, while Lyle was a very big hitter. You can look at his record all you want and say that Shavers and Mathis are the only stoppages of note, but you might want to actually watch him fight. He had a prime Foreman staggering like a drunk with just about every solid punch he landed, and I think George had a pretty good chin.

Lyle was in the same league as guys like Foreman and Shavers when it came to sheer power, he just seemed to lack the confidence to use all that power properly. And with the possible exception of Lewis, Holyfield didn't fight anyone who could hit as hard as Lyle. A prime Foreman certainly could, but the power of the romanticized Old George was a mere shadow of what he brought a few decades earlier.

I think we generally agree on this matchup, but to say that two world class fighters with less than stellar defenses could only produce one winner no matter how many times they fought is just not defensible.

BTW, I do also agree that size is pretty much irrelevant in this matchup. Holyfield had an excellent mix of abilities to trouble any HW in history, regardless of size, when he was on his game.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Oh, cmon Saad. I actually agree with most of your points in this thread, but you drastically over-rate your mans punch with that last line. Lyle lands punch after punch after punch after punch the way Holyfield did vs. Foreman, Cooper & co. & the results are miles different.

Holyfield simply did not have a HW punch. It was at best marginlly above average. At best.

Holyfield not having a Heavyweight punch is one of the more preposterous things I've ever read. I don't disagree that Lyle hit harder. It was the much part that I would contest.

Their punching power was leagues apart. Lyle rocked Foreman several times and knocked him down twice over five rounds. Holyfield landed many more punches over twelve rounds and never put Foreman down. Holyfield had decent power for a heavyweight, but he was no knockout artist. Lyle was a BIG heavyweight puncher.

The Great John L wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Funny how you go on and on about size meaning nothing with your beloved Dempsey yet here you're focused on 10 pounds being a major difference between Heavyweights. They had virtually the same height and reach. Like i said, if Lyle was slightly bigger it was quite insignificant and nowhere near the difference between Holyfield and Bowe.

It's also puzzling that you portray Lyle as this guy who could take down a building with one swat but Shavers & Mathis are really his only stoppages of note. He could definitely punch, but nothing that Evander hasn't seen before. Lyle didn't beat that level fighter, and he wouldn't beat Holy either. No matter how it was contested and no matter how many times they fought. He would always lose.

While I agree that Holyfield would be a pretty big favorite against Lyle, it's pretty silly to say that he could beat him every time they fought. Holyfield was hittable and and inconsistent, while Lyle was a very big hitter. You can look at his record all you want and say that Shavers and Mathis are the only stoppages of note, but you might want to actually watch him fight. He had a prime Foreman staggering like a drunk with just about every solid punch he landed, and I think George had a pretty good chin.

Lyle was in the same league as guys like Foreman and Shavers when it came to sheer power, he just seemed to lack the confidence to use all that power properly. And with the possible exception of Lewis, Holyfield didn't fight anyone who could hit as hard as Lyle. A prime Foreman certainly could, but the power of the romanticized Old George was a mere shadow of what he brought a few decades earlier.

I think we generally agree on this matchup, but to say that two world class fighters with less than stellar defenses could only produce one winner no matter how many times they fought is just not defensible.

BTW, I do also agree that size is pretty much irrelevant in this matchup. Holyfield had an excellent mix of abilities to trouble any HW in history, regardless of size, when he was on his game.

Do you really think I've never seen Ron Lyle fight? If so, you shouldn't bother reading my posts. I don't see a scenario where Lyle can win. Bad style match up for him and he simply isn't good enough.

Obviously you wouldn't give Bowe credit for anything. But Lyle never hit anyone as hard as Riddick hit Evander in their first fight.

jezzamundo wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Oh, cmon Saad. I actually agree with most of your points in this thread, but you drastically over-rate your mans punch with that last line. Lyle lands punch after punch after punch after punch the way Holyfield did vs. Foreman, Cooper & co. & the results are miles different.

Holyfield simply did not have a HW punch. It was at best marginlly above average. At best.

Holyfield not having a Heavyweight punch is one of the more preposterous things I've ever read. I don't disagree that Lyle hit harder. It was the much part that I would contest.

Their punching power was leagues apart. Lyle rocked Foreman several times and knocked him down twice over five rounds. Holyfield landed many more punches over twelve rounds and never put Foreman down. Holyfield had decent power for a heavyweight, but he was no knockout artist. Lyle was a BIG heavyweight puncher.

Foreman was sturdier in his comeback and Holyfield hurt him more than any other fighter. Were Young and Ali vastly superior punchers to Holyfield as well? Like I said, I give Lyle the edge, but there is no evidence it's as vast as you guys are making it out to be.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Obviously you wouldn't give Bowe credit for anything. But Lyle never hit anyone as hard as Riddick hit Evander in their first fight.

I guess you haven't seen Lyle fight. Shavers either for that matter.

The Great John L wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Obviously you wouldn't give Bowe credit for anything. But Lyle never hit anyone as hard as Riddick hit Evander in their first fight.

I guess you haven't seen Lyle fight. Shavers either for that matter.

And clearly you have never seen Holyfield. That's a shame, he was much better than either one of them.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

jezzamundo wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote: Holyfield not having a Heavyweight punch is one of the more preposterous things I've ever read. I don't disagree that Lyle hit harder. It was the much part that I would contest.

Their punching power was leagues apart. Lyle rocked Foreman several times and knocked him down twice over five rounds. Holyfield landed many more punches over twelve rounds and never put Foreman down. Holyfield had decent power for a heavyweight, but he was no knockout artist. Lyle was a BIG heavyweight puncher.

Foreman was sturdier in his comeback and Holyfield hurt him more than any other fighter. Were Young and Ali vastly superior punchers to Holyfield as well? Like I said, I give Lyle the edge, but there is no evidence it's as vast as you guys are making it out to be.

Holyfield did hurt him more than anyone else - he landed scores of flush power shots to Foreman's chin, many in combination. No, Young and Ali were obviously less powerful punchers than Holyfield, although when Ali sat down on his straight right it was a knockout punch, though usually after an accumulation of damage. I would suggest that there is plenty of evidence of Lyle's power being significantly greater than Holyfield's, but I guess we will have to agree to disagree on that. No argument that Holyfield would win the fight, but the odds narrow when Evander decides to slug it out with a guy who is IMO a more powerful and explosive puncher than Bowe.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

jezzamundo wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote: Holyfield not having a Heavyweight punch is one of the more preposterous things I've ever read. I don't disagree that Lyle hit harder. It was the much part that I would contest.

Their punching power was leagues apart. Lyle rocked Foreman several times and knocked him down twice over five rounds. Holyfield landed many more punches over twelve rounds and never put Foreman down. Holyfield had decent power for a heavyweight, but he was no knockout artist. Lyle was a BIG heavyweight puncher.

Foreman was sturdier in his comeback and Holyfield hurt him more than any other fighter. Were Young and Ali vastly superior punchers to Holyfield as well? Like I said, I give Lyle the edge, but there is no evidence it's as vast as you guys are making it out to be.

Studier in his comeback? Based on what? He was staggering like a drunk vs Ken LaKusta and Cooney had him way more hurt with one left hook than Holyfield ever did with 15 consecutive punches.

The Ali KO was based on exhaustion and an awful gameplan in the African heat vs one of the greatest HWs of all-time. The Young KD was more of a slip due to massive dehydration, which caused his "come to JEsus" moment in the dressing room after the fight, than any punch by Young . . if you think Young ever "hurt" Foreman in that fight with a punch you are sorely mistaken. Lyle rocked his world in the 1st round with one right hand. If that's enough, just look at their fight vs mid-level comp . .Lyle regularly got guys out with one punch. Holyfield had to throw the kitchen sink at bloody Bobby Csyz

Awww, now you're upset. It's easy to tell because you blow everything out of context and ask silly questions. He was sturdier because he took a better punch. His legs were stronger and he was more relaxed in the ring. Mentioning Ali and Young was just in response to a point blank statement like Lyle floored Foreman and Evander didn't.

I'm sorry dempsey, Ron Lyle was the greatest buddy. Feel better....

In early December 1976,Ron Lyle signed a contract to fight Ken Norton in Las Vegas in February 1977.
which was supposed to have been the preliminary for the planned Muhammad Ali vs Duane Bobick title match from MSG,
to have been shown on closed circuit television.
That would have been a pretty good double-feature
compared to a lot of the heavyweight fights that actually were in 1977.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Awww, now you're upset. It's easy to tell because you blow everything out of context and ask silly questions. He was sturdier because he took a better punch. His legs were stronger and he was more relaxed in the ring. Mentioning Ali and Young was just in response to a point blank statement like Lyle floored Foreman and Evander didn't.

I'm sorry dempsey, Ron Lyle was the greatest buddy. Feel better....

His 40+ year old legs were stronger? B/c he was fatter? I'm not upset at all, I'm bemused this is even an argument.

It isn't an argument, more of a fact.