BoxRec

Goodnight, Irene wrote:I think class of opposition is very significant, in point of fact.

Robinson crammed a galaxy of stars onto his victims' ledger. Jones? Well...

Do you think the quality of opposition Jones faced has an impact on how well he would do against Robinson?

Yes. I do.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Yes. I do.

X2

There is no substitute for experience, and there are few fighters in history who had more experience against top fighters than SRR.

Boilermaker wrote:I know it is usually taboo at most places to suggest that Sugar Ray Robinson might actually lose fights, particularly to Jones Jr, but i don't see how Ray can be described as top notch and Jones not.

Well when most boxing pundits (and old boxers) talk about the pound-for-pound best fighters of all time, a few names always creep up:
Sugar Ray Robinson, Henry Armstrong, Willie Pep, Carlos Monzon, Benny Leonard, etc....

Roy Jones Jr is never mentioned. And then you come and talk about how they should be on the same level?

Boilermaker wrote:On a pure class level, it is noteworthy that Toney, Hopkins, and Ruiz, who Jones dominated all did things that not only Ray's opponents but also Ray himself was unable to do. There are still some good reasons why you might want to pick robinson but class fact or the opposition beaten is not really one of them, i wouldn't have thought.

Opposition is perhaps the best way to measure how good a fighter was... So in any head-to-head argument it is ESSENTIAL.

But let me tell you something, whatever Toney or Ruiz ever did, Jake LaMotta could've done in spades.

Crease wrote:

Boilermaker wrote:I know it is usually taboo at most places to suggest that Sugar Ray Robinson might actually lose fights, particularly to Jones Jr, but i don't see how Ray can be described as top notch and Jones not.

Well when most boxing pundits (and old boxers) talk about the pound-for-pound best fighters of all time, a few names always creep up:
Sugar Ray Robinson, Henry Armstrong, Willie Pep, Carlos Monzon, Benny Leonard, etc....

Roy Jones Jr is never mentioned. And then you come and talk about how they should be on the same level?

Roy isnt in Rays class pound for pound, but let us not forget that he is naturally a lot bigger than Ray. Middleweight is the maximum Ray gets up to , while it is the lowest Roy can drop to.

By the way, it could easily be argued in your pound for pound list that you left out the three best, but that is another argument. Of course Roy isnt mentioned among old timers as a great. He hasnt been out of the game for long enough. One thing is for certain, Middleweight Ray Robinson has lost to fighters who are not in the same class as Roy.

Boilermaker wrote:On a pure class level, it is noteworthy that Toney, Hopkins, and Ruiz, who Jones dominated all did things that not only Ray's opponents but also Ray himself was unable to do. There are still some good reasons why you might want to pick robinson but class fact or the opposition beaten is not really one of them, i wouldn't have thought.

Opposition is perhaps the best way to measure how good a fighter was... So in any head-to-head argument it is ESSENTIAL.

But let me tell you something, whatever Toney or Ruiz ever did, Jake LaMotta could've done in spades.
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You are kidding arent you. I will admit to not being much of a fan of Lamotta (at least not as much as most). Ruiz beat Evander Holyfield at a time when Evander, while aged was still very dangerous. You surely dont think Lamotta does this do you. Toney got an older still evander but also held his own with some modern super heavyies. Let us not forget that that Sugar Ray was not good enough to win a light heavyweight title, much less a heavyweight one. Toney, Hopkins and Ruiz all have a decent chance against Robinson (no weight restrictions) let alone Jake Lamotta.

Ray ranks a lot higher at welterweight and maybe even pound for pound against Roy. But head to head Jones Jr should really win, even at middleweight.

A guy named Ray should always win . . .

The End wrote:I know we are in boxers of the past and i will be in a very small minority but this aint no walk in the park for Robinson. At middleweight Robinson struggled with Fullmer Basilio Ralph Jones and others. Ralph Jones damn sure aint Roy Jones. More times than not i see Robinson losing this one. Roy was bigger and faster and more elusive I think he could take this one because I'm not letting nostalgia consume me.

Fullmer destroys Jones at middleweight. Basilio and Tiger Jones? well, SRR was not the same fighter in the late 50s.

The great Roy Jones, Jr. was a magnificent fighter who had tremendous skills and reflexes. But, how could he beat a hard-punching and fast middleweight like the great original Sugar Ray? Robinson gets Jones' chin and it is all over.

elmersalsa wrote:The great Roy Jones, Jr. was a magnificent fighter who had tremendous skills and reflexes. But, how could he beat a hard-punching and fast middleweight like the great original Sugar Ray? Robinson gets Jones' chin and it is all over.

Robinsons gets anyones chin and it could well be all over.

Boilermaker wrote:Roy isnt in Rays class pound for pound, but let us not forget that he is naturally a lot bigger than Ray. Middleweight is the maximum Ray gets up to , while it is the lowest Roy can drop to.

Indeed, but if they are fighting at the same weight (Middleweight) then why would that be such an issue? I would also add that Robinson beat the great Jake LaMotta repeatedly and Jake was able to get up to the 160s lbs and even up to 175 lbs and his heaviest.

To me this proves descisively that Robinson could cope and beat naturally bigger guys.

Boilermaker wrote:One thing is for certain, Middleweight Ray Robinson has lost to fighters who are not in the same class as Roy.

Yes I will concede that Robinson lost to wrse fighters than Roy. But when most of these fighters beat Robinsons, we was already past his best.

Here's a few statistics for you:
11 of his 19 losses came on (and after) 1961 - when Robinson turned 40.

Even Terry Downes (an English Middleweight) once said:
"I beat a man called Sugar Ray Robinson... But I never fought the Real Sugar Ray"
and even later as an old man, Downes commented saying that he did not think he could have went 10 rounds with a prime Ray Robinson.

So mate I don't you can take these fights into account when discussing Robinson. I could very easily say that:
If Lebedev or Green could beat Jones, then Robinson would KILL HIM!!!

Boilermaker wrote:On a pure class level, it is noteworthy that Toney, Hopkins, and Ruiz, who Jones dominated all did things that not only Ray's opponents but also Ray himself was unable to do.ght.

Such as? Would you care to give some examples?

Boilermaker wrote:You are kidding arent you. I will admit to not being much of a fan of Lamotta (at least not as much as most). Ruiz beat Evander Holyfield at a time when Evander, while aged was still very dangerous. You surely dont think Lamotta does this do you..

Well Pound-For-Pound, LaMotta would give Holyfield one hell of a fight.

I notice that when folks mention how unorthodox Randy Turpin was in his fight with SRR they dont talk about the rematch 90 days later when Ray wasn't taking his " circus " on a European tour.

The " Styles make fights " argument is a terrible and flawed cliche, because the truly great fighters adapt to whatever style is in front of them, and Ray was the master at that.

I actually saw Ray in an open training session for that fight at Earls Court, and he had a magician, a team of dancers, a midget, and hairdressers in his entourage. I honestly dont think he took that whole tour too seriously.

Crease wrote:

Boilermaker wrote:Roy isnt in Rays class pound for pound, but let us not forget that he is naturally a lot bigger than Ray. Middleweight is the maximum Ray gets up to , while it is the lowest Roy can drop to.

Indeed, but if they are fighting at the same weight (Middleweight) then why would that be such an issue? I would also add that Robinson beat the great Jake LaMotta repeatedly and Jake was able to get up to the 160s lbs and even up to 175 lbs and his heaviest.

It isnt really a big issue. But the point is that the higher you go in weight, the better your chin has to be. At face value, Roy has a weak chin. But when you look at when it was cracked, It was only by big hitting light heavyweights (leaving asside the fact that this was when he was older). Ray's chin has never really even been tested at this weight. It looked okay in the Maxim fight, but it is always forgotten that it wasnt good enough to last the distance. Yes i know it was mainly heat and exhaustion, but that is part of the chin and he wouldnt have collapsed if Maxim had not thrown a punch that at least hurt him. He wouldnt have felt the need to keep moving around etc. There has to be a question as to whether Ray Could stand up to even light heavys punch well enough. There is no question relating to Roy. Now obviously because the fight is at middleweight, which theoretically means neither chin will have to stand up to a light heavy punch, (obviously it isnt really that simple) but the middleweight Ray is fighting has proven he has light heavyweight style power. No Tom Hearns or anything, but i dare say he probably hits as hard or harder than Maxim even as a middleweight. Ray hasnt yet proven that he can stand up to this sort of power.

To me this proves descisively that Robinson could cope and beat naturally bigger guys.

Boilermaker wrote:One thing is for certain, Middleweight Ray Robinson has lost to fighters who are not in the same class as Roy.

Yes I will concede that Robinson lost to wrse fighters than Roy. But when most of these fighters beat Robinsons, we was already past his best.



Here's a few statistics for you:
11 of his 19 losses came on (and after) 1961 - when Robinson turned 40.

Even Terry Downes (an English Middleweight) once said:
"I beat a man called Sugar Ray Robinson... But I never fought the Real Sugar Ray"
and even later as an old man, Downes commented saying that he did not think he could have went 10 rounds with a prime Ray Robinson.

So mate I don't you can take these fights into account when discussing Robinson. I could very easily say that:
If Lebedev or Green could beat Jones, then Robinson would KILL HIM!!!

Agreed. It was a bit of a throw away point. But still you do point out what concents me about Ray at middleweight. He really was starting to get past his best by the time he was a middleweight. Ray is a great, maybe the greatest, Welterweight. When past his best he went on to dominate the middleweight division. But it wasnt a dominance where he was unbeatable, possibly more because of his age than anything else. He dominated because he was that good that it didnt matter that he wasnt as good as he used to be. Jones was a great middle/light heavy right in his prime at these weights. He is the more proven fighter at the weight because of this. Ray is not without chance and i am not sure if i have even necessarilly picked Jones. My main point is that he is not outclassed and it is wrong to say so. Ray at his best could easily win and would probably almost certainly win one in a series. But dont lose site of the fact that he will be the slower fighter and believe it or not he may even have a less proven chin.

Boilermaker wrote:On a pure class level, it is noteworthy that Toney, Hopkins, and Ruiz, who Jones dominated all did things that not only Ray's opponents but also Ray himself was unable to do.ght.

Such as? Would you care to give some examples?

Boilermaker wrote:You are kidding arent you. I will admit to not being much of a fan of Lamotta (at least not as much as most). Ruiz beat Evander Holyfield at a time when Evander, while aged was still very dangerous. You surely dont think Lamotta does this do you..

Well Pound-For-Pound, LaMotta would give Holyfield one hell of a fight.

Pound for pound I agree. But this is not a pound for pound fight we are talking about. I cant see La Motta beating the Holyfield that Toney beat or the Holyfield Ruiz beat. I cant really see Robinson beating him either. Yet Toney and Ruiz both did. That is not arguable. I think that places these guys well in discussions.

If it was Joey Maxims punches that made Ray collapse, can you explain why Ruby Goldstein also collapsed 3 rounds earlier? Surely Joey wasn't punching him as well.

duranfan wrote:If it was Joey Maxims punches that made Ray collapse, can you explain why Ruby Goldstein also collapsed 3 rounds earlier? Surely Joey wasn't punching him as well.

I would like to think that both Maxim and Robinson were in a little bit better condition than Ruby Goldstein!

You raise an interesting point though. Who lasts the distance in a Robinson v Maxim fight with one of our current modern nutritioned Superheavyweight as a special guest referee. Maxim might stop the pair of them in one fight

To suggest that SRR's collapse was brought on by his inability to cope with Maxim's power is as far fetched as saying Nielsen collapsed form the punches of Dick Ryan rather than dehydration. Maxim was not even a particularly hard puncher, LaMotta probably punched a fair bit harder and Robinson took those punches without flinching. No one is knockout proof but SRR comes as close as any fighter you'll ever see.

hhaehre wrote:To suggest that SRR's collapse was brought on by his inability to cope with Maxim's power is as far fetched as saying Nielsen collapsed form the punches of Dick Ryan rather than dehydration. Maxim was not even a particularly hard puncher, LaMotta probably punched a fair bit harder and Robinson took those punches without flinching. No one is knockout proof but SRR comes as close as any fighter you'll ever see.

To suggest that one of the greatest fighters of all time could not pace himself well enough to get through a fight in the hot sun is quite simply what is ridiculous.

Incidentally, as a matter of interest what chance to the Ray Robinson fans give a prime Roy Jones Jr of lasting the distance against Joey Maxim, in similar conditions..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IV8lTKRr ... re=related

I just rewatched from round 10 (follow the above links).

it is quite clear that from this point at least, Maxim was hitting a lot cleaner and harder than Ray Robinson. Particularly with the left.

Boilermaker wrote:

hhaehre wrote:To suggest that SRR's collapse was brought on by his inability to cope with Maxim's power is as far fetched as saying Nielsen collapsed form the punches of Dick Ryan rather than dehydration. Maxim was not even a particularly hard puncher, LaMotta probably punched a fair bit harder and Robinson took those punches without flinching. No one is knockout proof but SRR comes as close as any fighter you'll ever see.

To suggest that one of the greatest fighters of all time could not pace himself well enough to get through a fight in the hot sun is quite simply what is ridiculous.

Incidentally, as a matter of interest what chance to the Ray Robinson fans give a prime Roy Jones Jr of lasting the distance against Joey Maxim, in similar conditions..

How much chance would we give a past his prime version of Ray Robinson not to get sparked by Tarver?

If Jones fought a guy 2 full divisions above his prime weight, who was actually any good (Schmeling, Paterson), 15 rounds, no juice... I don't think he hears the final bell.

So what are you trying to say? The heat made no difference to the man that was 19lbs lighter?

One round to go Ray is up on all the cards, to the point where Maxim can only win be KO, and he quits because Maxim is getting the better of the fight?

I dont know very much about biology but I would have thought that in severe heat the lighter man would suffer more from dehydration that the heavier one.

No, I think we can safely assume the heat, and only the heat forced Ray Robinson to collapse in that fight, and the margin he was winning by would suggest Maxim had little or nothing to do with it.

This post is addressed to Boilermaker.

Boilermaker wrote:

hhaehre wrote:To suggest that SRR's collapse was brought on by his inability to cope with Maxim's power is as far fetched as saying Nielsen collapsed form the punches of Dick Ryan rather than dehydration. Maxim was not even a particularly hard puncher, LaMotta probably punched a fair bit harder and Robinson took those punches without flinching. No one is knockout proof but SRR comes as close as any fighter you'll ever see.

To suggest that one of the greatest fighters of all time could not pace himself well enough to get through a fight in the hot sun is quite simply what is ridiculous.

Here's the thing, unlike you I don't have to suggest anything. The film of the fight is readily available and anyone can see for them selves that Robinson collapsed from dehydration caused by the heat and not from Maxim's punches.

Boilermaker wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IV8lTKRr ... re=related

I just rewatched from round 10 (follow the above links).

it is quite clear that from this point at least, Maxim was hitting a lot cleaner and harder than Ray Robinson. Particularly with the left.

So . . . light-hitting Joe Maxim was the only guy to stop Sugar Ray and the heat had nothing to do with it?

Come on. It was a legit stoppage and win for Maxim (after all, it was just as hot for Maxim as it was for Robinson), but to suggest that Maxim was the better man that night is historical revisionism at its worst.

raylawpc wrote:

Boilermaker wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IV8lTKRr ... re=related

I just rewatched from round 10 (follow the above links).

it is quite clear that from this point at least, Maxim was hitting a lot cleaner and harder than Ray Robinson. Particularly with the left.

So . . . light-hitting Joe Maxim was the only guy to stop Sugar Ray and the heat had nothing to do with it?

Come on. It was a legit stoppage and win for Maxim (after all, it was just as hot for Maxim as it was for Robinson), but to suggest that Maxim was the better man that night is historical revisionism at its worst.

Hang on, I never said that the heat had nothing to do with it. Like the loose ropes in Zaire, it obviously played its role. Just like it was probably the part of the reason that Old Bob Fitzsimmons ever lost to Bill Lang, Or Jack Johnson lost to Willard, or Jeffries lost to Johnson. But at the end of the day, those fighters lost and it wouldnt really have mattered what the weather was like, they lost because their opponents handled the conditions better and started landing enough punches to tire the other guy out.

that is what happened with Ray robinson and he lost. I hardly think, by the way that Joey Maxim was light hitting when compared to Ray Robinson's welterweight opposition, do you?

raylawpc wrote:

Boilermaker wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IV8lTKRr ... re=related

I just rewatched from round 10 (follow the above links).

it is quite clear that from this point at least, Maxim was hitting a lot cleaner and harder than Ray Robinson. Particularly with the left.

So . . . light-hitting Joe Maxim was the only guy to stop Sugar Ray and the heat had nothing to do with it?

Come on. It was a legit stoppage and win for Maxim (after all, it was just as hot for Maxim as it was for Robinson), but to suggest that Maxim was the better man that night is historical revisionism at its worst.

How much chance would we give a past his prime version of Ray Robinson not to get sparked by Tarver?

If Jones fought a guy 2 full divisions above his prime weight, who was actually any good (Schmeling, Paterson), 15 rounds, no juice... I don't think he hears the final bell.

A few points about this:

1. The middleweight version of Roy Jones was never past prime and never got sparked by Tarver, although he might have.
2. Ray has fought one world class light heavyweight, and lost by TKO. It is not totally inconcievable that he doesnt see the final bell against Tarver. It is a bit of an unknown really because we dont know how his chin holds at the weight. Particularly if it is hot and outside.
3. I think Ray beats Tarver most times even past prime. But it is really irrelevant. I certainly have no doubt that any version of Ray wipes the floor with the current version of Jones probably even the amateur Lightweight version of Robinson.
4. Your point about weight is exactly what i am saying here. Ray is going to be fighting one division above his best weight against a guy who was younger, faster, stronger (maybe). The two fighters are in the same class.

duranfan wrote:So what are you trying to say? The heat made no difference to the man that was 19lbs lighter?

One round to go Ray is up on all the cards, to the point where Maxim can only win be KO, and he quits because Maxim is getting the better of the fight?

I dont know very much about biology but I would have thought that in severe heat the lighter man would suffer more from dehydration that the heavier one.

No, I think we can safely assume the heat, and only the heat forced Ray Robinson to collapse in that fight, and the margin he was winning by would suggest Maxim had little or nothing to do with it.

This post is addressed to Boilermaker.

Why would the lighter man suffer more from dehydration?

It is much harder for the heavier man because they have to drag their whole weight around which is much harder. Normally, the heavyier fighters are not in as good a condition because of this. There is no doubt that the heat helps the lighter man, in such a fight.

Of course i am sure the argument from Ray's fans is that Ray felt it more because he was moving around a lot more where as maxim was stationery and conserving energy. In theory, if it wasnt so hot he could have still run around. My point about Maxims punches is that if Maxim wasnt throwing punches Ray wouldnt have collapsed. In other words he could have went the 15 rounds no problems against the heavy bag!. Ray felt he couldnt stand still and stop running when he was tired and trade punches with Maxim and he made the concious decision not to do so. Why was this? I say it was because if he did so, Maxim had already shown his chin was good enough to take what little power Ray had left, and he also showed that he would be able to hit him clean and hard if he stayed in range. Maxim had enough power to discourage him and Ray felt he had to stay on his bike to survive but he wasnt good enough to so. Would he have had been able to in indoor air conditioning? Who knows but quite possibly not.

Here is a good Question for the Ray fans. If they (Joey and Ray) rematched a month later, in the same oppressive heat (maybe hotter even), who would win the fight?

Boilermaker wrote:Here is a good Question for the Ray fans. If they (Joey and Ray) rematched a month later, in the same oppressive heat (maybe hotter even), who would win the fight?

Maxim would win of course. Your flawless logic has showed us that Maxim would beat Ray by way of dehydration even if they fought naked on the North Pole in a blizzard. Just like Dick Ryan would always beat Brian Nielsen and Byrd would always beat Vitali.