BoxRec

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:
FlatnoseFlynn said he would hurt anyone in history with his power, I cited examples that prove that to be false. That was the extent of my involvement in this conversation until you asked me why I find his power to be overrated. Overrated doesn't mean minimal.

Bert Cooper, who nobody rates anywhere near Bruno as a puncher, scored a knock down over Holyfield. So in every way that is a poor example unless you're trying to prove my point for me.

P.S. So a fighters actual age is the gauge for where they are in their career? The fact is, Coeztee never had another meaningful moment in a prize ring. If you're caught up on his age, fair enough, he was shot. And he never had more than an average chin to begin with.

So a flash knockdown of Holyfield is enough to prove Coopers power but because Bruno didn't floor a big named fighter he couldn't punch, what sort of logic is that? Renaldo Snipes dropped Holmes and had him doing a silly walk, and Snipes couldn't punch for toffee, so does that mean Snipes is a big puncher now, or is Holmes chinny as well?

All I'm trying to say is Bruno could punch, no two ways about it. Just because there are no great examples of his power against world class opposition doesn't take that away from him. He hurt and wobbled a peak Tyson and he stopped some normally durable guys like Tills, Ferguson, Ribalta, even the aged Bugner still had a decent chin. Give the guy some credit.

I only mentioned Coetzee's age because you said he was ageing, he had just turned 31 the month prior to fighting Bruno, just pointing your mistake out.

Controversial wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:
FlatnoseFlynn said he would hurt anyone in history with his power, I cited examples that prove that to be false. That was the extent of my involvement in this conversation until you asked me why I find his power to be overrated. Overrated doesn't mean minimal.

Bert Cooper, who nobody rates anywhere near Bruno as a puncher, scored a knock down over Holyfield. So in every way that is a poor example unless you're trying to prove my point for me.

P.S. So a fighters actual age is the gauge for where they are in their career? The fact is, Coeztee never had another meaningful moment in a prize ring. If you're caught up on his age, fair enough, he was shot. And he never had more than an average chin to begin with.

So a flash knockdown of Holyfield is enough to prove Coopers power but because Bruno didn't floor a big named fighter he couldn't punch, what sort of logic is that? Renaldo Snipes dropped Holmes and had him doing a silly walk, and Snipes couldn't punch for toffee, so does that mean Snipes is a big puncher now, or is Holmes chinny as well?

All I'm trying to say is Bruno could punch, no two ways about it. Just because there are no great examples of his power against world class opposition doesn't take that away from him. He hurt and wobbled a peak Tyson and he stopped some normally durable guys like Tills, Ferguson, Ribalta, even the aged Bugner still had a decent chin. Give the guy some credit.

I only mentioned Coetzee's age because you said he was ageing, he had just turned 31 the month prior to fighting Bruno, just pointing your mistake out.

I never said Bruno couldn't punch, so you're wasting a lot of time if that is all you're trying to say. As for giving him credit, I've done that as well. I don't know what you're on about. He never hurt and wobbled Tyson, he landed a big shot in a time when nobody was hitting him at all.

What kind of logic is wanting it proven against contenders? The same kind of logic that keeps me from ranking David Rodriguez as a Heavyweight contender. A flash knockdown of Holyfield proves more than Bruno ever did, you're the one that brought Cooper up to begin with. I never said he hit harder than Frank, in fact I said quite the opposite. Take a deep breath and stop inventing things for me while you spit out absurd comparisons. Again, overrated doesn't mean he couldn't punch. He just didn't hit as hard as guys like Flynn and yourself claim he did.

Ok he was 31, he was also finished as a contender. I use aging for post-prime, but in case you missed I changed it to shot just for you. Gerrie was never hard to hurt anyway, just shows how weak Frank's resume is when it comes to KO's. He beat the dog shit out of Bonecrusher, to no avail.

Controversial wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:It was I who said Vitali cant punch for sh!t, and I stand by it.

His KO ratio is MEANINGLESS once you analyse his fights and career.

A more textbook case of misleading statistics, you could not find.

Apologies to SaadOffTheDeck in that case, I was going by memory. That argument could apply to almost anyone then. If you analyse Tysons career the biggest KO scalps on his resume were Holmes, Berbick, Thomas, Tubbs and Spinks, certainly arguments can be made about either their age, size, condition or overall ranking in HW history.

The same could be said about Klitsckos opponents. To say Vitali cannot punch is stretching the argument a bit far don't you think?

I submit the fight with a mummified, 3,000-year-old Shannon Briggs (yes, thats THE Shannon Briggs, who in his prime --- which had expired more than a FULL DECADE prior to this fight, was one of the WORST HW champs in the divisions entire history).

Have you seen this bout? Briggs is not missed with a punch all night, and from the fourth round on, Klitschko swings for the fences. Briggs battles asthma, fossilisation, and his own suckiness, but STILL, blow after blow after blow, he hangs in there. It is THE definitive display of ineffectual punching. I guarantee this fight will make a believer of my position out of you.

Youre being silly with the Tyson comparison and you know you are, so Im going to pass that one over.

Floyd Patterson has to top the bill on this one.

He was floored so many times in his career, yet it cannot be argued he was a great fighter with a long reign as HW champ.

Tommy Hearns is also worth a shout, although his main problem was stamina & the inability to improvise under pressure (early on in his career), but nevertheless, he was still always vulnerable to a big bomb from his opponent.

BarryWashington wrote:

Syntax Error wrote:Floyd Patterson has to top the bill on this one.

He was floored so many times in his career, yet it cannot be argued he was a great fighter with a long reign as HW champ.

Tommy Hearns is also worth a shout, although his main problem was stamina & the inability to improvise under pressure (early on in his career), but nevertheless, he was still always vulnerable to a big bomb from his opponent.

I think it was only early on that Patterson had these problems. Once he could get past the fourth round then he didn't seem to have durability issues. Don't believe he was knocked down once after the fourth round.

Hearns was knocked down 6 or 7 times in a career full of top opposition. It was certainly a weakness, but bad? Hell No

Lewis' two biggest drawbacks were his chin and heart. Not one other HW top-10er (I have him at #8) would go in ONE PUNCH from a McCall or Rahman.

Lets get real; if Jack Dempsey, Joe Louis, Rocky Marciano, or Jack Johnson had been hit with those particular punches they would have been KTFO. McCall and Rahman would have been the strongest most powerful fighters any of those men ever faced.

Hit anyone in the right spot with the right timing and they'll go, and it's especially true of the HWs. The bigger the fighter the more out of proportion their power becomes, compared to chin strength

theone wrote:

Lewis' two biggest drawbacks were his chin and heart. Not one other HW top-10er (I have him at #8) would go in ONE PUNCH from a McCall or Rahman.

Lets get real; if Jack Dempsey, Joe Louis, Rocky Marciano, or Jack Johnson had been hit with those particular punches they would have been KTFO. McCall and Rahman would have been the strongest most powerful fighters any of those men ever faced.

Both your claims are highly debatable. In fact, in Louis' case, he faced Baer and Galento --- two guys off the top of my head alone who punched harder than either of Lewis' (temporary) conquerors.

Nevertheless,

Joe Louis would have knocked out Rahman long before that shot materialized even in a hypothetical situation. Louis KO1 Rahman, and that's a fact Danno.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Joe Louis would have knocked out Rahman long before that shot materialized even in a hypothetical situation. Louis KO1 Rahman, and that's a fact Danno.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:
Both your claims are highly debatable. In fact, in Louis' case, he faced Baer and Galento --- two guys off the top of my head alone who punched harder than either of Lewis' (temporary) conquerors.

Nevertheless,

Come off it guys, have you ever watched Galento fight? He was hardly a boxing talent, short, fat and plodded around the ring with his arms down invariably winging punches like a complete novice and stumbling around the ring. His punch was all he had. If he could manage to floor Louis I'm sure Rahman or McCall could have as well. Hell even the powder puff Conn who was outweighed by 25lb had Louis in all sorts of trouble.

I didn't mention Galento. If you think Rahman would have a glimmer of hope against Joe Louis, enjoy your fantasy.

Rahman never scorched anyone like that in his whole career.

McCall never scorched anyone like that in his, either.

Briggs never made another rival dance like that with one short salvo.

Mercer wasnt a puncher and gets WAY too much credit in general for his power.

The above goes double for Klitschko.

Ruddock, Tua, Grant, Golota & Tyson hardly landed a blow between them.

Someone like a Rahman or a McCall would have an outside chance to knock Louis down, but out ala Lewis? It would never happen. His recuperative powers next to Lewis' look supernatural...and though Lewis wouldnt be rocked by Conn, the exchange Louis got into with Baer would have flattened Lewis, as would the bomb of a left hook Galento (who hit harder than Rahman or McCall) landed. Louis was back up INSTANTLY.

bruno's problem was his musculature - he could bang with immense power but had trouble letting it go at the right time due to being too muscled up.
glass jaw? jack bodell - and a true great

Joe Louis would have knocked out Rahman long before that shot materialized even in a hypothetical situation. Louis KO1 Rahman, and that's a fact Danno.

Saad...i consider you one of the better posters on this site, so it was surprising to read this rather irrelevant response to my statement from you. My point was in response to the comment that if said hypothetical punch DID actual land, no other fighter in the all-time heavy list other than Lewis would have been taken out.

Lewis wouldnt be rocked by Conn, the exchange Louis got into with Baer would have flattened Lewis, as would the bomb of a left hook Galento (who hit harder than Rahman or McCall) landed. Louis was back up INSTANTLY.

So Lewis couldnt be rocked by Conn, who rocked Louis badly, but Rahman and Mcalls punch that ko'd Lewis, wouldn't have ko'd Louis? Explain the physics of that to me please.

Tua and Tyson both landed several left hook bombs on Lewis and couldnt take him out. But Galento's would?

If you think Rahman would have a glimmer of hope against Joe Louis, enjoy your fantasy.

A glimmer? Of course he does. would i bet on him to do it? Hell no. But once again, its not the point.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Rahman never scorched anyone like that in his whole career.

McCall never scorched anyone like that in his, either.

Briggs never made another rival dance like that with one short salvo.

Mercer wasnt a puncher and gets WAY too much credit in general for his power.

The above goes double for Klitschko.

Ruddock, Tua, Grant, Golota & Tyson hardly landed a blow between them.

Someone like a Rahman or a McCall would have an outside chance to knock Louis down, but out ala Lewis? It would never happen. His recuperative powers next to Lewis' look supernatural...and though Lewis wouldnt be rocked by Conn, the exchange Louis got into with Baer would have flattened Lewis, as would the bomb of a left hook Galento (who hit harder than Rahman or McCall) landed. Louis was back up INSTANTLY.

So basically everyone Lennox Lewis fought couldn't punch, or the ones that did never landed any big punches on Lewis, that's a very convenient argument.

The point that was trying to be made, that THEONE clearly gets, is fighters like Bruno, Rahman etal have the punching power to hurt anyone, including Joe Louis. Thats not to say they would beat someone like Louis, or even land a big punch, but if they did just because they are not ATG fighters doesn't diminish their power and mean they couldn't hurt him.

Joe Louis' chin was hardly concrete and out of his 70 opponents only 15 weighed more that 200lbs. Of those 15 only a few were world class fighters. If Louis fought a 17 stone fighter like Bruno or Rahman there is a good chance if they landed flush they would have Louis in all sorts of trouble, plenty of much smaller and less skilled fighters did.

Galento was a complete joke as a fighter, he fought like someone who had never boxed before, and the punch he floored Louis with wasn't a bomb as you called it, it was a short left hook, he just caught Louis right. If someone as unskilled as Galento was could land a hook flush on Louis' chin then theres no reason why someone like Klitscko couldn't either.

theone wrote:

Joe Louis would have knocked out Rahman long before that shot materialized even in a hypothetical situation. Louis KO1 Rahman, and that's a fact Danno.

Saad...i consider you one of the better posters on this site, so it was surprising to read this rather irrelevant response to my statement from you. My point was in response to the comment that if said hypothetical punch DID actual land, no other fighter in the all-time heavy list other than Lewis would have been taken out.

Lewis wouldnt be rocked by Conn, the exchange Louis got into with Baer would have flattened Lewis, as would the bomb of a left hook Galento (who hit harder than Rahman or McCall) landed. Louis was back up INSTANTLY.

So Lewis couldnt be rocked by Conn, who rocked Louis badly, but Rahman and Mcalls punch that ko'd Lewis, wouldn't have ko'd Louis? Explain the physics of that to me please.

Tua and Tyson both landed several left hook bombs on Lewis and couldnt take him out. But Galento's would?

If you think Rahman would have a glimmer of hope against Joe Louis, enjoy your fantasy.

A glimmer? Of course he does. would i bet on him to do it? Hell no. But once again, its not the point.

Yup, a glimmer. He has none.

Controversial wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Rahman never scorched anyone like that in his whole career.

McCall never scorched anyone like that in his, either.

Briggs never made another rival dance like that with one short salvo.

Mercer wasnt a puncher and gets WAY too much credit in general for his power.

The above goes double for Klitschko.

Ruddock, Tua, Grant, Golota & Tyson hardly landed a blow between them.

Someone like a Rahman or a McCall would have an outside chance to knock Louis down, but out ala Lewis? It would never happen. His recuperative powers next to Lewis' look supernatural...and though Lewis wouldnt be rocked by Conn, the exchange Louis got into with Baer would have flattened Lewis, as would the bomb of a left hook Galento (who hit harder than Rahman or McCall) landed. Louis was back up INSTANTLY.

So basically everyone Lennox Lewis fought couldn't punch, or the ones that did never landed any big punches on Lewis, that's a very convenient argument.

The point that was trying to be made, that THEONE clearly gets, is fighters like Bruno, Rahman etal have the punching power to hurt anyone, including Joe Louis. Thats not to say they would beat someone like Louis, or even land a big punch, but if they did just because they are not ATG fighters doesn't diminish their power and mean they couldn't hurt him.

Joe Louis' chin was hardly concrete and out of his 70 opponents only 15 weighed more that 200lbs. Of those 15 only a few were world class fighters. If Louis fought a 17 stone fighter like Bruno or Rahman there is a good chance if they landed flush they would have Louis in all sorts of trouble, plenty of much smaller and less skilled fighters did.

Galento was a complete joke as a fighter, he fought like someone who had never boxed before, and the punch he floored Louis with wasn't a bomb as you called it, it was a short left hook, he just caught Louis right. If someone as unskilled as Galento was could land a hook flush on Louis' chin then theres no reason why someone like Klitscko couldn't either.

Its also a very true argument. You were the one, in fairness, who brought up Ruddock, Grant, Tua and Tyson. It was as if youd never seen the bouts (not saying that, but thats how it came across) because theyre all poor examples to defend Lewis' chin with. Big hitters who couldnt land a big hit to save themselves.

And Galento could punch. Klitschko cant.

The Briggs fight is the best possible example I could think of to disprove Klitschko's alleged power.

Anybody (Malignaggi included) can put an opponent in hospital if theyre in a situation where they can literally hit a guy in the face with EVERY punch they throw for twelve long rounds.

Never mind one-punch guy, the Briggs bout proves Klitschko isnt even a thousand-punch guy.

The guy just cannot punch a lick, and that fight is as golden a mark of proof as I could ask for. Lewis surviving his punches is no grand statement on the Englishman's chin at all.

Goodnight, Irene wrote: Its also a very true argument. You were the one, in fairness, who brought up Ruddock, Grant, Tua and Tyson. It was as if youd never seen the bouts (not saying that, but thats how it came across) because theyre all poor examples to defend Lewis' chin with. Big hitters who couldnt land a big hit to save themselves.

And Galento could punch. Klitschko cant.

At the end of the day LL fighters fought some of the biggest punchers in recent times, there is no way he went through every fight without being hit.

As mentioned before he was so under-prepared for Rahman and so knackered by the time the 5th round came he was an easy target. Whatever you say Rahman was in the best shape of his career, fighting for the title and up for the fight, with a lot to fight for. He had good power and landed flush on his LL chin with his 17.5 stone weight behind the punch. If Rahman had landed that punch on Louis I doubt he would have got up either. In my opinion that doesn't make LL chinny, that just makes LL stupid for not preparing properly and not taking the fight too seriously.

Out of interest as you seem to rate peoples power on who they knocked out, who did Galento ever knockout that makes his power so much better than Klitschkos?

Lewis was under-prepped, but he was also kicking Rahman's ass. He was under the pump just as much as Lewis when that shot landed.

"At the end of the day..." doesnt eliminate the facts...and the facts are beating a Tua or Ruddock does not acquit your chin by itself. Watch the Ruddock fight and tell me where that bout can be used to defend Lewis' chin. You cant.

I dont rate guys solely on who they KO. That was your inference from my thoughts, not any claim I made.

DetroitHxC wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Anybody (Malignaggi included) can put an opponent in hospital if theyre in a situation where they can literally hit a guy in the face with EVERY punch they throw for twelve long rounds.

Never mind one-punch guy, the Briggs bout proves Klitschko isnt even a thousand-punch guy.

The guy just cannot punch a lick, and that fight is as golden a mark of proof as I could ask for. Lewis surviving his punches is no grand statement on the Englishman's chin at all.

So how do you stop almost every person you've faced with no punch? I don't buy it.

By fighting THE most despicable crop of borderline-talentless, minimally-skilled, outright obese list of Heavyweights anybody's ever seen?

Ali would stop nearly everyone Klitschko has.

Just wanted to respond to some of the points regarding Louis and Lewis:

- Galento. Where is the evidence that he was just a hard puncher? If you are going to say Mercer and Rhaman didn't show they were hard punchers vs their competition, then show the big names that Galento proved it against.

-Rahman's ko punch vs Lewis. I agree that Rahman was not a huge punhcer, though he had some pop. However, the punch that he landed against Lewis was devastating. Just look at it. It was a punch that he probably couldn't have repeated if he fought Lewis 50 more times.
That punch would have knocked Joe Louis out. (Of course the odds that he would landed it are remote, but that is another story.) It would have knocked almost anyone out.
Once in a great while something like this happens. Benitez was not a huge puncher. However, the punch he landed against Hope was absolutely devastating.

-The McCall ko stoppage vs Lewis was premature. It almost certainly would not have been stopped in Joe Louis' era.

-It's an exaggeration to say Lewis didn't get hit at all in some of these fights. Tyson nailed him a few times as did Grant. What hard puncher did Louis go several rounds with that didn't hurt him?

When you down to it Lewis was knocked down twice in his career. Louis was knocked down 10 times. If you throw out fights when he was older, it is 5 times. Occasionally Lewis was hurt in other fights, and so was Louis. The area that favors Louis is that got stopped once instead of twice. However, if it wasn't for the premature stoppage vs McCall that might be even.

elmersalsa wrote:Glass Jaws:
Tiger Flowers
Lennox Lewis
Thomas Hearns
Bob Foster
Terry Norris
Julian Jackson
Bob Satterfield
Nino Valdez

Dumbest post of the year so far.

Controversial wrote:If you remember Bruno badly hurt Tyson with a left hook in their first fight

Badly hurt?

Dream on.