Fight Films Lost To History

[CNorkusJr]

Essentially Jacobs started out as a collector. Nothing more. He and Cayton combined their collections to form a commercial partnership whereby they would license footage. Cayton, the money man, would send Jacobs all over creation looking for these films to purchase. In most instances they purchased the film and nothing more. This has been shown in court on several occasions. They got around this because most people associated with these old fights were dead, had forgotten, or didnt care. Anyone who tried to step on their toes they strong armed with threats of legal action. When someone stood up to them they more often than not either dropped it or lost. In essence they believed that possession was nine tenths of the law and if they bought a film they owned the rights, the hoped the people they were selling to or threatening bought into this. Most did, but copyright law is more complex than that and it came back to bite them more than once. I have no doubt that they also filed copyrights on fights they had no business filing rights to, but you can file copyright on anything, the question is will it hold up in court? Most people wouldnt challenge them, and thats what they counted on.

Okay- I'm sure it is that way because there are numerous fight film collectors or dealers that offer copies of fight footage of these films for sale.Almost instantly one can go online or by other means and buy a copy of a fight that was just on TV a week before or so in DVD or VHS form. I am no attorney, but I would think the technicality of the matter is if you tend to show the film afterwards for profit or not, something that Jim Jacobs made clear to former boxers upon honoring their requests.
Whether he had the law behind him or not didnt matter for guys like my father because 90% of it was for family entertainment and the other 10% he would show them to various military orgs. he belonged to (VFW,Marine Corps League,Amer. Legion etc etc) after a meeting.

If you wish to see some of my fathers films, This is not the complete catalog of my fathers films that exists. There are others, its just whomever runs this site must have in his collection:

http://sosoboxing.com/videos/boxers-a-z/charley-norkus

[klompton]

Essentially Jacobs started out as a collector. Nothing more. He and Cayton combined their collections to form a commercial partnership whereby they would license footage. Cayton, the money man, would send Jacobs all over creation looking for these films to purchase. In most instances they purchased the film and nothing more. This has been shown in court on several occasions. They got around this because most people associated with these old fights were dead, had forgotten, or didnt care. Anyone who tried to step on their toes they strong armed with threats of legal action. When someone stood up to them they more often than not either dropped it or lost. In essence they believed that possession was nine tenths of the law and if they bought a film they owned the rights, the hoped the people they were selling to or threatening bought into this. Most did, but copyright law is more complex than that and it came back to bite them more than once. I have no doubt that they also filed copyrights on fights they had no business filing rights to, but you can file copyright on anything, the question is will it hold up in court? Most people wouldnt challenge them, and thats what they counted on.

Okay- I'm sure it is that way because there are numerous fight film collectors or dealers that offer copies of fight footage of these films for sale.Almost instantly one can go online or by other means and buy a copy of a fight that was just on TV a week before or so in DVD or VHS form. I am no attorney, but I would think the technicality of the matter is if you tend to show the film afterwards for profit or not, something that Jim Jacobs made clear to former boxers upon honoring their requests.
Whether he had the law behind him or not didnt matter for guys like my father because 90% of it was for family entertainment and the other 10% he would show them to various military orgs. he belonged to (VFW,Marine Corps League,Amer. Legion etc etc) after a meeting.

Exactly.

In the old days, before VHS, the old timers would take their collections and a projector to bars and show fight films for a night, charging admission, or taking a cut of the cover. Ive heard stories of Cayton and Jacobs cracking down on these guys (although I dont know if thats true or not). It wasnt until the VHS traders proliferated that they really went after guys and scared some of them. One in particular, and I cant remember his name, stood up to them and actually beat them in court and showed that they were bullying these guys without many of the rights they claimed to have.

As for your fathers fight with Moore, I knew the guy who bought Moores collection and thats not one of the fights Ive ever heard of being listed in it. In fact the only fight that came out of that collection which isnt commonly available is one of the Moore-Harold Johnson fights (not the championship bout which is commonly out there). I'll see if I can track down the Norkus-Moore fight. If Moore, or BigFights had it I will be able to confirm that, but that would be news to me.

[CNorkusJr]

Essentially Jacobs started out as a collector. Nothing more. He and Cayton combined their collections to form a commercial partnership whereby they would license footage. Cayton, the money man, would send Jacobs all over creation looking for these films to purchase. In most instances they purchased the film and nothing more. This has been shown in court on several occasions. They got around this because most people associated with these old fights were dead, had forgotten, or didnt care. Anyone who tried to step on their toes they strong armed with threats of legal action. When someone stood up to them they more often than not either dropped it or lost. In essence they believed that possession was nine tenths of the law and if they bought a film they owned the rights, the hoped the people they were selling to or threatening bought into this. Most did, but copyright law is more complex than that and it came back to bite them more than once. I have no doubt that they also filed copyrights on fights they had no business filing rights to, but you can file copyright on anything, the question is will it hold up in court? Most people wouldnt challenge them, and thats what they counted on.

Okay- I'm sure it is that way because there are numerous fight film collectors or dealers that offer copies of fight footage of these films for sale.Almost instantly one can go online or by other means and buy a copy of a fight that was just on TV a week before or so in DVD or VHS form. I am no attorney, but I would think the technicality of the matter is if you tend to show the film afterwards for profit or not, something that Jim Jacobs made clear to former boxers upon honoring their requests.
Whether he had the law behind him or not didnt matter for guys like my father because 90% of it was for family entertainment and the other 10% he would show them to various military orgs. he belonged to (VFW,Marine Corps League,Amer. Legion etc etc) after a meeting.

Exactly.

In the old days, before VHS, the old timers would take their collections and a projector to bars and show fight films for a night, charging admission, or taking a cut of the cover. Ive heard stories of Cayton and Jacobs cracking down on these guys (although I dont know if thats true or not). It wasnt until the VHS traders proliferated that they really went after guys and scared some of them. One in particular, and I cant remember his name, stood up to them and actually beat them in court and showed that they were bullying these guys without many of the rights they claimed to have.

As for your fathers fight with Moore, I knew the guy who bought Moores collection and thats not one of the fights Ive ever heard of being listed in it. In fact the only fight that came out of that collection which isnt commonly available is one of the Moore-Harold Johnson fights (not the championship bout which is commonly out there). I'll see if I can track down the Norkus-Moore fight. If Moore, or BigFights had it I will be able to confirm that, but that would be news to me.

Thank You for any info you might come up with. If you know the person who bought the Moore collection, and that person says that the film is not part of it, then I think my search might come to an end after 40 years of looking and putting feelers out. I Thank You if you can confirm that. What might give me the slightest hope is that many films that are listed on previous pages are near extinction, then maybe the Norkus-Moore fight might exist but is rare. Since it had no huge impact on the boxing world (Championship), its relevance is worth much only to family members.

As far of seeing if it exists with ESPN/ Disney that would be of great help because it is my understanding from bill Cayton Jr, (from a conversation in 2004 ?) that is where the marjority if not all the huge library his father and Jacbs collection is now held. If its not there, then probably lost to the winds if it ever did exist.
I tried contacting ESPN first hand after-but got no reply-not even a confirmation that it exists in their collection. Nothing. Why so secretive- I just wanted to know what other Norkus fights existed that I didnt know about.
Thats where I stand today, but like all here, who knows what lies in some attic.

PS My father became a liquor salesman here on Long Island after his boxing days, along with Billy Graham and today, Chuck Wepner keeps the trade going in New Jersey.
Your right, he did show his fights in many clients bars and restaurants on nights, with usual payout in free beer or whatever. (He made his money by getting a larger order from the place the following week). I can tell you assured that Jacobs didnt hunt these guys down. I think basically, Jacobs seemed like a guy to the fighters who might of said "they earned it".

[dempseyfire]

A short clip of Frazier-Jones exists.

I do not believe Moore-Norkus exists. I would be interested in hearing why Mr. Norkus thinks it does.

Cayton and Jacobs only owned a relatively small percentage of the rights to fights in their collection. The bulk of those originating from the Madison Square Garden co. This is part of the reason why ESPN only shows a limited number of them. They used to strong arm people in to thinking that they owned all of those rights to all of their films but it was revealed during a court case that they didnt. In fact, there is a taped deposition of Truman Gibson, lawyer for the IBC where he states that Cayton and Jacobs never purchased those rights. Furthermore, the rights on a lot of those older fights have lapsed and are now in the public domain.

Knowing how Caytons and Jacobs acquired their radio broadcasts I would say it is almost a certainty they dont have the rights to those, or at least not the VAST majority of them.

Interesting stuff. ESPN has shown old fights from a variety of mediums (old PBR fights, Gillette Calvacade, MSG Network, fight footage from 30s and 40s shown in theatres etc.) so I would be curious as to where they think they would run into copyright issues for fights prior to the 1970s. Wouldn't most of the fights from the 60s and before now be in the public domain anyway?

[klompton]

Not necessarily.

I have the list of fights which BigFights had "clear" copyright to (some of which the rights simply lapsed, not that they own them) and uts pretty short compared to the length if their actual catalogue.

[KOT]

More:

Benny Bass - Red Chapman
Young Kloby - Eddie Shevlin
Pete Latzo - Joe Dundee
Johnny Kilbane - George Chaney
Tom Heeney - Otto Von Porat
Rocky Kansas - Jimmy Goodrich
Benny Bass - Harry Blitman
Tom Sharkey - Kid McCoy

You mention the Kilbane - Chaney fight in a post on 4 April 2012 . . does that mean you are aware of it being available? I'm very interested in that fight. Please let me know to kevin at johnnykilbane.com (spelled out so automated programs don't capture my email address)

[Brutu]

Whose storage facility was it that was destroyed?
I cant understand why Quarry vs Mathis no longer exists.
From what I remember it was televised live across the USA
via selected cities on cable,through a syndicated boxing series at the time.
Any boxing fan,someone, anywhere with a VCR at home or at the company they worked at could have taped it off their monitor it seems.
But then again Im reminded of the now famous 1965 closed-circuit
showing of the Rat Pack live at the Kiel Auditorium in St. Louis
that was almost totally forgotten about over the years and considered lost for sure until 30 years later when a Frank Sinatra fan located a copy of the broadcast in the closet of the organization who the benifit was for.

http://www.tvclassics.com/ratpack.htm

[klompton]

It was destroyed in a fire at the facility that housed the broadcasts of the msg company.

How many people in 1969 owned a vcr lol. How many of them were recording fight films? It doesnt exist. It was originally recorded live on a 3/4" master during the original broadcast by a company in Pa. contractred by msg. This company often reused tapes, destroying earlier broadcasts. So many records werent even preserved. Some that were, like Quarry-Mathis, and Griffith-Gonzalez 2 (the first nationally televised color boxing production) were destroyed in a storage facility fire. There was a guy who used to go around claiming he had the film, that he got it from Mando Ramos who got it from Quarry. This could have been plausible had it been a bootleg but he described it as the broadcast version with don dunphy commentating. Straight from the horses mouth it would have been impossible for Quarry or Ramos to have had that version. So it was a nice story but total bullshit. I also spoke to both Quarry's family and Mathis' family and neither one had that film. I tracked the guy who said he had it down and he told me his ex-wife tossed it (convenient). The bottom line is that it was recorded but lost and anyone who says they owned a copy or have seen one in the last 30 yrs is lying. Sad but true.

Kilbane-Chaney was filmed but is not known to have survived.

[evrenb]

Hi Klompton

Nice to hear from you ! In the 1960's the BBC used to broadcast that were shown live in America. One example I will use is the Cleveland Williams vs Billy Daniels fight. It is a live us broadcast but comes from the BBC. This was also the method of ITV the alternative TV station - akin to ABC and NBC. Have you looked into whether the fight was broadcast in the UK? This is a possibility. Another example i remember seeing on an archive was the 2nd Quarry vs London fight listed on the ITV archive (though I never was able to get hold of it).
I reckon it is out there! In someones loft.

[Brutu]

As far as the history of VCR's. Not many people(private citizens) owned them due to the cost
and also the cost of video-tape,which has been commercially used since the late 1950's,
replacing the kineoscope.
I remember around 1972,my friends father who was a colonel in the US Air Force
owned one.An RCA I think,He bought it at Sears and used at home to tape football games
off TV on itI remember that they also use to get Commercial movies and tv shoes
on video-tape through the mail service that they would watch and send back
and get another one.That was way back then too.

[Brutu]

Anyway there was an entire thread on the early history of VCR recordings.
I think at cyberboxingzone forum.
and whether or not the first Marciano-LaStarza fight in 1950
may have been recorded on kineoscope .
It was around that time that the television networks started
recording live boxing and live shows on kineoscope
for airing on the West Coast for more convienent time for viewers there.
Marciano-LaStarza I was during that time in the grey area just before
or at the time that it was being done by the tv networks.
(Although I have yet to see an old tv schedule that lists that
fight as going to be on tv).

[klompton]

The first videocasette recorders did not come out for home use until 1970, the year after Quarry-Mathis. Even the prototypes for these machines were not being used in labs until late 1969. Prior to that the only home recording devices were videotape recorders, which operated on a reel to reel system. These machines were expensive, difficult to operate, and could only record for short durations. If someone wants to prove me wrong and produce a copy of Quarry-Mathis Id be happy to eat crow but I tracked that film to death and Im confident that it hasnt existed in any form for 30+ years.

[Brutu]

Yeah,but along with stealing paper clips,there could have been a boxing fan at his place
of work somewhere that had a VCR and used it to tape fights on the weekends for his personal viewing.
The first time that I had ever remember seeing a VCR was around late 1969 or early 1970,
at grade school in Virginia,when the teacher wheeled in a large cart into the classroom one day
and it had a contraption about the size of a suitcase on it.It was a VCR
We had to watch some educational programming that was video-taped
from PBS(which launched in 1969).
As far as I remeber all the educational shows we had to see were in B/W,
but I think that was because PBS aired a lot of its shows in B/W
like Mr.Rodgers.Seasame street was in colour back then tho if I remember correctly.

[klompton]

Kinescope was film, not video. It was essentially a special 16mm camera designed to film a TV screen successfully by being synched to the frame rate of that screen so as not to get a "roll" in the picture which happens due to the fact that film runs slightly slower than a televised frame rate.

It was possible to film your TV screen without using a kinescope back then but I dont know how it was accomplished. I had several films from a collection by a guy who used to sit at home and film very short snippets of boxing matches that he was watching on TV. Its the only way I know of that footage of Rademacher-Foley survived.

MSG did not preserve their films in the Quarry era by kinescope. At least not by the late 1960s. They were being preserved on 3/4" masters by recording directly from the live transmission. This is why many of those films that came out of that collection have commercials intact. The Quarry's or anyone else associated with them would have had no need of a 3/4" copy of that fight because the equipment to either play it or process of transferring it at the time would have been so expensive it would have been prohibitive. Thats above and beyond the fact that they would not have had access to the collection to begin with. There was simply no way for them to get it, and no reason to because they couldnt have watched it. That is above and beyond the fact that it was detroyed in a fire. Its sad but thats where it stands. Why anyone went around claiming they had it but couldnt let anyone watch it, couldnt trade it, couldnt post stills from it, and now they dont have it anymore is beyond me but there are a lot of nuts out there who like to claim they have certain films that they dont in order to get people to kiss their ass.

[klompton]

Yeah,but along with stealing paper clips,there could have been a boxing fan at his work
of work somewhere that had a VCR and used it to tape fights on the weekends for his personal viewing.

Thatd be nice but Im not holding my breath. As it stands there is no evidence this ever happened. The only reason anyone thinks that film might have existed at one time is because StingerKarl unloaded that bullshit story and then couldnt back it up.

Youve got a film that nobody else has. You say it came from the family (who claims they never had it). Mathis' family never had it. It was known to have been destroyed in a fire a LONG time ago. BUT, you cant prove that you have it because you swore to the family (who never had it) that you wouldnt release it (even though its one of Quarry's best performances. And even though the family was at one time active selling every scrap of video they had on Jerry... except this). Yet, knowing how rare and important this video is, and being a boxing fanatic, you leave it with your wife after a bitter divorce and she throws it out. Really? If it smells like bullshit its bullshit and that story has bullshit written all over it. So if you exclude that bullshit story which has had holes punched in it by everyone its associated with. There is no more evidence that Quarry-Mathis exists right now than there is that Greb-Tunney 1 exists. In fact there less.

[Brutu]

I know kinescope was film.
magnetic Video tape recording wasn't invented until around 1954.
There was once on youtube a rare clip of the NBC-TV
kinescope recording of Joe Louis vs Billy Conn II from 1949.
It was shown in a NBC documentery about the history of kinescopes
from produced around the mid 1950's.

[Brutu]

Its possible that someone filmed it off of tv with a film camera,
but you ever notice in some of those movies from the 1970's
whenver a tv is on in the background ,a big bar continuously
goes horizontally through the image(unless the director superimposes an image into it later in post-production.
so that the tv set appears normal if the actors are suppose to be watching the tv)

[Brutu]

was Quarry vs Mathis at the old MSG?
If so,one can probably forget about any hidden closet
with any fight tapes in it,probably at the bottom of the dump.

[Brutu]

Why would someone have a copy of that particular fight and not want anyone else to see it but themselves?
Ever see the movie THE EIGER SANCTION with Clint Eastwood
and his private room of rare paintings?

[klompton]

It was at the current garden but they didn film or house their collection on site. They didnt even house them in the same state.

[Brutu]

Doesnt Don King reportedly have his own boxing archive collection somewhere with its own curator?
I read more then a few times that whenever he starts talking to some people they reflexivley and
instinctavley put their hand where their wallets were suppose to be
to make sure it wasn't missing.

[Brutu]

Im not saying Quarry vs Mathis exists on either video-tape or film/Im just saying I think
its possible that someone else could have recorded it off either television or off some monitor
back in March 1969.
Now that I think about it,it was in the Spring of 1970,
that I first saw a VCR in our classroom.

[misterpunch]

was graziano's fight against marty servo filmed?

is there any footage of an al tribuani match?

[klompton]

Yeah king has a nice collection and retains the rights to it.

Im not aware of either graziano-servo or tribuiani.

[Brutu]

I think the most logical place to look for any such video-recordings
from the 1960's,would be Los Angeles/Hollywood in some Hollywood estate archives.
The Big celebrities back then in the 1960'S didn't make the obscene amount of money
that even the no-talent 4th tier celebrities do these days(which is just about everyone there IMOP).
But do you think a big time Hollywood star, director or producer
was going to stay home to watch a fight live on tv,if they had something better to do
when they can afford a video-recorder back in 1969?