BoxRec

Posted: **16 Feb 2013, 18:46**

Ah...I got you. I get the feeling if he had won the title in 1978 he would've lost it to Larry Holmes by 1979, but that's another debate for another time. Your theory that Frazier would've been shot because he would've been the same age as he was when his career went downhill in his own time. But in this era, he wouldn't have had Ali to compete with (at least not a dangerous one) and he wouldn't get his ass handed to him by George Foreman. Larry Holmes I think would outbox Joe, but I don't see him giving him any kind of vicious beating. It's very conceivable that Joe would've had more years at or near the top had he fought in the 1980's as he wouldn't have had nearly as much stiff competition around him.

Posted: **17 Feb 2013, 11:55**

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:
Il Duce wrote:Senior Pipino,,,,,,,

33 1/2 year-old Joe Frazier "ain't" beating 25 1/2 year-old Frak Bruno.

'Smokin Joe' an 'All-Time Great', but not after Age 32.

At Age 34, he turned down 'big bucks' to fight Kallie Knoetzee, after he got
'lumped up' in Gym Sessions in Philadelphia.
I got news for you, prime Frazier isn't getting knocked down 5 times by Michael Dokes either.

Dokes is just about the most overrated of the 80's fat, strung out, unmotivated "talent" pool of heavy weights. Dokes was not much of a puncher and I doubt he could have dropped even the 81 Frazier that fought Cummings.

Posted: **17 Feb 2013, 12:01**

HomicideHenry wrote:
SaadOffTheDeck wrote:
Competition means much more to me than dominance. Dempsey would have been 0-5 against Ali & Foreman.
That can never be proven, but by you saying so, you rank Dempsey virtually the same as Frazier as Smokin' Joe went 1-4 with Ali and Foreman; and weren't you arguing with me a month or so ago that Ali was so ring rusted, slow, and pitiful when he fought Bonavena? The Bonavena match happened just a few short months before the FOTC. So, by your logic then, Frazier's win over Ali doesn't mean much at all. Or does it, since your using it as a weapon against Jack Dempsey?

This post is all over the place.

No it can't be proven, that's just the logic that people are using against Frazier. Dempsey never faced competition that great. Tight losses to a fighter like Ali count as a plus in a resume for me. Those two results are as good as any of jack's wins. I'd call it more like 3-2.

No again, I rate Frazier definitively ahead of Dempsey. Pretty funny trying to minimize the "1" when it came against one of the two greatest Heavyweights in history.

No, for a third time, I've never said a word about Ali being rusty. I think he was as good as he ever was in the FOTC and he lost to the better man. Try and use my actual words if you want to bitch about "my logic".

Posted: **17 Feb 2013, 12:02**

gilgamesh wrote:Ah...I got you. I get the feeling if he had won the title in 1978 he would've lost it to Larry Holmes by 1979, but that's another debate for another time. Your theory that Frazier would've been shot because he would've been the same age as he was when his career went downhill in his own time. But in this era, he wouldn't have had Ali to compete with (at least not a dangerous one) and he wouldn't get his ass handed to him by George Foreman. Larry Holmes I think would outbox Joe, but I don't see him giving him any kind of vicious beating. It's very conceivable that Joe would've had more years at or near the top had he fought in the 1980's as he wouldn't have had nearly as much stiff competition around him.

Joe also might have been able to get something done about his eyes.

Posted: **17 Feb 2013, 12:49**

Il Duce wrote:The (28 1/2 year old) 'Smokin Joe' turned himself into a 'wide swinging / wide open brawler', who left
himself 'wide open' for fast counters.

It wouldn't be Michael Dokes power that dropped Joe, but the speed of the punch. Plus, Dokes would
have a reach advantage - and he was good sized heavyweight at 6' 2" 216 lbs. And, Dokes also
took Mike Weavers hardest punches better than Larry Holmes did.

This ain't Ron Stander (5' 11" and 218 lb.) that 'Smokin Joe' would be fighting.

Tale of the Tape

Joe Frazier
Age....... 28 years, 11 months
Height... 5' 11 1/2"
Weight.. 216 lbs.
Reach.... 73"

Michael Dokes
Age....... 24 years, 3 months
Height... 6' 2"
Weight... 216 lbs.
Reach.... 78"

You can keep trying to sell it, I ain't buying that Dokes puts him anywhere near the canvas. He would be using his legs and speed to avoid combat. You must love that computer.

Posted: **17 Feb 2013, 13:13**

That thing should be junked. A flash knockdown early? Possible 5 spread out over the first 5 rounds? Not in a million fights.

Posted: **17 Feb 2013, 14:10**

Il Duce wrote:This the 1,000,001-th fight.

And, nobody would believe that an awkward and clunky 5' 10" - 205 lb. Argentinian, who was slower
than Molasses during a Canadian Winter would drop 'Smokin Joe' 'twice', and come within
a flash of a '3-Knockdown' 2nd Round TKO.

A 'flash knockdown' is no big deal

Those knockdowns of Frazier in the first Bonavena fight get way too much significance. As I recall, the first knockdown was a good right hand, the second knockdown came right after and it was pretty iffy as to what caused it, and Bonavena never got a sniff of a third knockdown. Frazier wasn't hurt that bad at any time.

All this coming in Frazier's 12th fight. Bonavena was a pretty stiff challenge for anybody fighting their 12th fight.

Posted: **17 Feb 2013, 15:07**

Il Duce wrote:Correct Mr. Yancey,,,,,,,,

Hopefully nobody is taking this Computer Program Bout as a 'knock' on All-Time Great 'Smokin Joe'.

Just that Joe got a little 'too wide open' in 1972 at Age 28+, thinking that he could just blow everybody
away with a few well-placed Philadelphia left hooks.

Instead of working on perfecting his style, he let his head get into show business, with
'Smokin Joe and his Musical Revue'................

Just think that Michael Dokes was at his 'pinnacle' in December 1982.

Definitely agree that post-FOTC Frazier got fat and happy, lost his edge and desire, and was more into his music then boxing.

He was really just hanging around waiting for one more payday with Ali.

That is why I never could quite understand why his camp would risk it all against a guy who had really serious power. Foreman may have been fighting some bums, but he was wrong for fat and happy Joe. I knew that fight had trouble written all over and was none too surprised when I heard the bad news that night on the radio.

Posted: **17 Feb 2013, 17:21**

All of this is simply conjecture and fantasy. Il Duce, you're not taking into account what Frazier might have been if he didn't take the beatings from Foreman, and Ali. Not the washed-up fantasy Ali of 1979 you present, but the real thing of '71,' 74, and '75. You can only speculate what kind of fighter Frazier might have been at 33+ years. Bruno, Dokes were both decent fighters but hardly anything special. I'm sure most agree that Frazier was an all-time top 20 heavyweight. But Bruno and Dokes? Top 1,000? Maybe. Old Joe whips these guys even if he comes out smokin' in a wheelchair.

Posted: **17 Feb 2013, 18:00**

I would agree with your time frame of Frazier's best years. I'd throw in '71 just for the hell of it. He did win the Fight of the Century. But don't you think you give too much creedence to a computer forecast? Didn't one computer have Marciano knocking out Ali in 1970, but a different computer in England had the opposite result? I remember Angelo Dundee saying about Ali's loss to Rocky in the American Superfight version, that the match looked ridiculous. Ali never threw that many body shots in his entire career (up to '67). Nor did he lay on the ropes that much pre-1970.
The thing about computers when it comes to these dream fights is that we'll never know how right or how wrong these analysis' are.

Posted: **17 Feb 2013, 19:27**

Il Duce wrote:This the is "1,000,001-th" fight.

And, nobody would believe that an awkward and clunky 5' 10" - 205 lb. Argentinian, who was slower
than Molasses during a Canadian Winter would drop 'Smokin Joe' 'twice', and come within
a flash of a '3-Knockdown' 2nd Round TKO.

A 'flash knockdown' is no big deal

Check out 217+ pound 'Smokin Joe' against Ron Stander in May 1972.
1st Round at the (1:22 Mark), Ron buckles 'Smokin Joe' with a mediocre left hook, and
then backs him up.

Styles make Fights. Fast Hands cane be more effective then power in scoring a knockdown.

I have Joe's career on DVD, I've seen them all. First off, you didn't match Frazier with Dokes in his twelfth fight. Secondly, Bonavena was a bigger puncher than Dokes and he didn't drop him FIVE times. Stander didn't drop him at all.

Styles do make fights, that's precisely what makes that result so preposterous. For the third time, young Dokes was a mover, what about that makes you think he's going to stand and slug and use his overwhelming speed to smash Joe all over the ring? Sorry man, Dokes wasn't George Foreman. You're the one that should be checking out some footage.

Posted: **17 Feb 2013, 21:29**

Il Duce wrote:I guess the Michael Dokes who went 'wicked awesome' crazy on Mike Weaver 'I' was just a 'mirage'.

Or flattened Las Vegas 'Tough Guy' Lynn Ball - had 'no power'.

Michael Dokes of 1982 was 'an excellent fighter', with power.

Again, no disrespect to the All Time Great 'Smokin Joe Frazier'.

Prime vs. Prime, Smokin Joe 'defuses' Dynamite by TKO 10.

The Weaver fight was a wicked awful stoppage. The rematch was much more in line.

Never said he had no power.

Just because you're making a silly argument doesn't mean you're being disrespectful. You're just woefully wrong defending some computer.

Posted: **17 Feb 2013, 21:40**

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:
Il Duce wrote:I guess the Michael Dokes who went 'wicked awesome' crazy on Mike Weaver 'I' was just a 'mirage'.

Or flattened Las Vegas 'Tough Guy' Lynn Ball - had 'no power'.

Michael Dokes of 1982 was 'an excellent fighter', with power.

Again, no disrespect to the All Time Great 'Smokin Joe Frazier'.

Prime vs. Prime, Smokin Joe 'defuses' Dynamite by TKO 10.
The Weaver fight was a wicked awful stoppage. The rematch was much more in line.

Never said he had no power.

Just because you're making a silly argument doesn't mean you're being disrespectful. You're just woefully wrong defending some computer.

awful stoppage is right.
weaver was knocked down or at least around early in every fight.

that fight was a travesty

Posted: **17 Feb 2013, 22:27**

Il Duce wrote:Saad,,,,,,

You're letting your Heart make your decision, which I understand. You should 'expand' and look at all the aspects
and possible scenario's.

You're letting a computer skew your sense of reason. Dokes flooring Frazier 5 times is an impossible scenario. 0% chance.

Posted: **17 Feb 2013, 22:37**

The best Dokes ever fought was against Holyfield.

Posted: **17 Feb 2013, 23:32**

Il Duce wrote:Saad,,,,,,,

Joe Frazier knocked himself down in Las Vegas in April 1970 at Caesar's Palace.

Ever wonder why Yank Durham kept Joe away from Zora Folley in 1966 and 1967.

Straight right hands,,,,,,,,,'Down Broadway',,,,read up on it.

After the age of 28+, just who did Joe put 'down-and-out'............

Posted: **17 Feb 2013, 23:35**

You're a broken record about how shot he was, yet you have no problem with him rebounding from the nonsensical five knockdowns to dominate the rest of the fight? Stop embarrassing yourself. Michael Dokes was not George Foreman.

Posted: **18 Feb 2013, 01:58**

You're far too emotional over this computer and it's silly little analysis.

Posted: **18 Feb 2013, 10:45**

Il Duce wrote:
SaadOffTheDeck wrote:You're far too emotional over this computer and it's silly little analysis.
Then, maybe nobody should have added to this 'silly thread title', Joe Frazier fighting the 1980's.

Should stick to his 'real accomplishments', such as winning the Greatest Fight of All-Time,
winning the Gold Medal at the 1964 Olympics, and recognized as the Heavyweight Champion of
the World for 5-Years.....

No, the thread is fine. Running fights through a computer is fine, I play Title Bout all the time. Fervently defending something as stupid as Dokes dropping Frazier five times for over a page is flat out bizarre. Especially when you try and back it up with gems like, "Ron Stander wobbled him momentarily!"

Posted: **18 Feb 2013, 13:47**

I'm confused by the replies in this thread. We're talking about what would have happened if Joe Frazier would've been born later in life and would've been in his peak at say 1978 to what might have happened later from that point forward. I hope I got that right. Not how Frazier would've handled 80's heavies in real-life if those fight would have been made.

Duce proposed Michael Dokes would've floored a Joe Frazier four or five years forward from his prime after fighting a tougher grade of challengers than he actually did in his real life reign. Saad took offense and there was some bickering back and forth about whether that was a "crazy" idea or not.

I think Frazier had a very short physical prime. Not sure why, as I thought he was a hard trainer and pretty serious about his career. Maybe it was just natural physical deterioration due to his hypertension/high blood pressure?

The idea that Frazier would have deteriorated over the span of four or five years after winning the title doesn't seem that far-fetched to me and that Michael Dokes of 1982 could've done some damage to him seems reasonable.

The 1980 version of Dokes had serious power. He bounced my hero, Roughhouse Fischer, off the canvas time and again on the Ali-Holmes undercard and Fischer was the toughest, hardest-chinned fighter I knew at the time. He said afterwards that Dokes was the only fighter who ever truly hurt him and was scary fast and powerful.

It might be a stretch to see Dokes running neck and neck with the prime Frazier from the Ellis and Ali fights, but is it really that much of a stretch to see him doing it with Joe on the downhill slope?

Posted: **18 Feb 2013, 14:02**

It's an outlandish stretch to see Dokes dropping Frazier five times.I could see him sticking and moving his way to a decision if Joe was that diminished. The question I posed him, that he ignored, was that if Joe was shot enough to go down five times, how did he dominate the last ten rounds of the fight. If he was so old and feeble that he couldn't stand up to anything Dokes threw for the first fifteen minutes, the fight should be over.

He had a draw with Dokes 3 years later in this fantasy. What does that tell you? All I did was say no way in hell Dokes is dropping Joe 5 times. Il Douche is the one that took offense to that assault on his beloved computer. Like I said, I love that kind of stuff but I don't argue the results past all logic.

Posted: **18 Feb 2013, 18:09**

His opinion bothers you that much that you're calling him "Il Douche"? Seriously?

Posted: **18 Feb 2013, 20:53**

Dart340 wrote:His opinion bothers you that much that you're calling him "Il Douche"? Seriously?

Actually that was an error. My wisdom teeth are killing me and I had some pain meds this morning and I always think that when I see his name.

He can think whatever he wants, outlandish as it may be.

Posted: **18 Feb 2013, 21:34**

Il Duce wrote:Actually there was a 6th-Knockdown that Michael Dokes registered on Smokin Joe,,,,,,,

But Referee Tony Perez was too busy sipping a Banana Daquiri in the corner, and didn't score it as such.

They are quite refreshing.......... DD

After bout comments.

Michael Dokes, 'We had heard that Joe was fighting off his back heels, and was vulnerable to short quick
punches on the chin, instead of the big looping punches. I saw the opening, and I fired a quick one. I was
suprised as anybody on how fast he went down and got back up. I kept hitting him with those short quick
rights hands, that travelled only 12", and he kept going down. But he proved he was a 'man', and kept getting
back up. He was my idol, and still is.'

Joe Frazier, 'The kid is good, but I still thought I won. Forget about the knockdowns, they don't mean nothing.
You go down and bounce right back up, that's why they call them 'flash-knockdowns'. After the 6th Round, the
kid had nothing and I won every round after that. And in the last round, 10-more seconds and he would have been
layed out in the 5th Row. I don't feel bad about the Knockdowns, its the decision that I'm upset about.'

Ringside Reporter 'Saad-Off-The-Deck'. 'I wouldn't have believed it with my own eyes. But Smokin Joe was decked
5-Times. I had heard he was getting a little too comfortable. And rumors were flying around that he was fighting
off his heels, and was rocking-and-teetering when hit by his sparring partner Leroy Diggs. It's true, FIVE.'

Posted: **19 Feb 2013, 12:33**

Il Duce wrote:Don't despair Smokin Joe did return with an impressive 'KO' over Percell 'Magic Davis in June 1983.

Fomer 2-Time Heavyweight Champion 'Smokin Joe' Frazier made his return last night with a
TKO 5 victory over Detroit Heavyweight - 21 year-old - Percell 'Magic' Davis.

The 29 1/2 year Frazier, at a tight-and trim 207 lbs. took a few rounds to get warmed up, before
staggering the 6' 3" 230 lb. Detroit Bomber in Round 4 with several left hooks to the chin. Joe
finished his night's work in Round 5, when he dropped the younger fighter with his famed
'Philly Fist'. Davis got to his feet, but was in condition to continue and the bout was stopped
at 1:03 of Round 5 by way of a TKO.

There was concern that 'Smokin Joe' may have 'chin problems, and that the 6' 3" 230 lb. Davis
with a record of 15-2-0 (11 KO's) would be too big for the small-ish former 2-Time Champion.

Frazier looked a bit stiff in Rounds 1 and 2, as the Detroit Heavyweight was able to back him up
while landing clubbing right hands to Joe' head. But in Round 3, Joe started to warm up, and landed
several hard hooks to the body that stated to bring Davis' hands down. In Round 4, Joe was running
on all gears, and his famed left hand started to do damage as Davis' looked to be on shaky pins after
absorbing several hard punches to the chin. A hard left hook near the end of the Round staggered
Davis who had no clue on how to tie up 'Smokin Joe'. From there, Frazier landed several more
hard punches, before Davis was saved by the bell, only to be hammered in the next round.

Joe Frazier, 'The hammer is back. And look at my thin waist, I'm back down to 207 lbs. where I should
be. I feel quicker and stronger at this weight. I was too heavy (218 lbs.) when I fought Dokes.'

Percell Davis, 'They told me his chin was gone. So I decided to try and take him out early, instead
of fighting with a controlled style which is where I'm at my best. I made a mistake, and Joe made
me pay for it. He can still take a hard shot. I landed a couple of good right hands on his head,
and he just smiled at me.'

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