Ali and racism

[Datsue]

Something I always thought was funny was the Klitschko brother's continued repping of Schmelling as one of their heroes. I don't know much about Schmelling so forgive me for my ignorance, but wasn't he aligned with Hitler and the Nazis at one point?

Schmeling opened his trap about his distaste for Nazis & the political apparatus thereof repeatedly, & repeatedly called them on their Anti-Semitism (his manager/trainer was Jewish) & got sent to the Eastern Front as a front-line paratrooper for his troubles. No cushy two hundred miles behind the front PR job doing physical education for Schmeling.

There are also stories of him hiding Jews during the war, but I am uncertain of their provenance. Even if they're not true, he was famous as fvck in Germany, so I think you can ascertain just what the Nazis thought of him by sending him out to die in the snow.

PS: Though I can see where you'd not expect them to have this degree of sensitivity, the thing RE: Klitschkos & fascism that's always got me is Wlad's Hugo Boss sponsorship. (Boss were the official suppliers of SS, Gestapo & Hitler Jugend uniforms, & Hugo was chummy as fvck with Hitler. He donated money to the Nazis at every opportunity & was a Party member. He had Swiss bank accounts dating from the late-30s/war years. His factories ran on forced slave labour (i.e. Slavs, Roma & Jews) during the war. pudendum was as bad as Bertelsmann & wearing that logo has always made me want to see Wlad face-planted. But there you go. I hold grudges). Like I said, how someone of Slavic heritage could wear the logo of a company that used his people as slaves is... A bit hard for me to see. Not as bad as if he were Jewish or Roma, but still...

[Datsue]

Hagler said he would 'never touch white flesh'....Hopkins said he 'would never lose to a white fighter'....yet years after the event people still discuss Minter's comment r.e Hagler.

Racism is racism...simples

Racism is a spectrum, coloured (hahahahahaha) by its context.

If you're part of a race that historically has oppressed others & had power over them, & you're racist, then I've got much less time for you than if you're part of the oppressed, & you express something that attacks those who have historically had power over you. They're both wrong, but you can't say they're equivalent.

It's like this: if a rich man steals, fvck him. But a poor man stealing cannot be judged by the same lights. Not in my book, anyway.

Racism (either way) stems from ignorance, & fear, & good loving people instilling age-old hate in their poor, empty-headed kids. It's bad, but to go "A is as bad as B" is kinda stupid, imo.

[danconnollyeire]

Hagler said he would 'never touch white flesh'....Hopkins said he 'would never lose to a white fighter'....yet years after the event people still discuss Minter's comment r.e Hagler.

Racism is racism...simples

Racism is a spectrum, coloured (hahahahahaha) by its context.

If you're part of a race that historically has oppressed others & had power over them, & you're racist, then I've got much less time for you than if you're part of the oppressed, & you express something that attacks those who have historically had power over you. They're both wrong, but you can't say they're equivalent.

It's like this: if a rich man steals, fvck him. But a poor man stealing cannot be judged by the same lights. Not in my book, anyway.

Racism (either way) stems from ignorance, & fear, & good loving people instilling age-old hate in their poor, empty-headed kids. It's bad, but to go "A is as bad as B" is kinda stupid, imo.

This is bollocks. How do you know a black man never kept my grandma slave? You completely said that they is not equality and non-white people have a right to be racist

Noone today has been opressed. It was years ago. Plus I'm Irish... I'm a white man... noone is my family history kept slaves. Racism is racism. Hagler was never oppressed by anyone... neither was Hopkins. Both as as bad as Nick Griffin

[Datsue]

Er, I said "They're both wrong, but they're not equivalent". i.e., that I think one is more wrong than another. Show me where I said I support anyone being racist?

I'll say it again: if you've been brought up as dirt in a society that treats you as dirt, & you express your hatred for those who you see as oppressors, it is in my opinion more understandable than if you're part of the oppressing mass. Neither is right, at all, but I said one was more understandable.

When did Nick Griffin grow up in the ghetto? When were his recent, living memory ancestors lynched for their race? I wonder how often he was made to feel a second class citizen (not as in "I don't like to see Muslim butchers on my high street" but rather "You ain't coming in here 'cos you're black")? But both his & Hagler's wayward opinions are completely equivalent? Right...

PS: If your mum had to sit on the back of the bus 'cos she was Irishwould you have exactly the same opinions, or do you think you might be a bit pissy (however wrong-headed your sentiments were)?

[danconnollyeire]

Er, I said "They're both wrong, but they're not equivalent". i.e., that I think one is more wrong than another. Show me where I said I support anyone being racist?

I'll say it again: if you've been brought up as dirt in a society that treats you as dirt, & you express your hatred for those who you see as oppressors, it is in my opinion more understandable than if you're part of the oppressing mass. Neither is right, at all, but I said one was more understandable.

When did Nick Griffin grow up in the ghetto? When were his recent, living memory ancestors lynched for their race? I wonder how often he was made to feel a second class citizen (not as in "I don't like to see Muslim butchers on my high street" but rather "You ain't coming in here 'cos you're black")? But both his & Hagler's wayward opinions are completely equivalent? Right...

PS: If your mum had to sit on the back of the bus 'cos she was Irishwould you have exactly the same opinions, or do you think you might be a bit pissy (however wrong-headed your sentiments were)?

Ghetto? We live in England... no man rules a black man. I grew up in Walthamstow and trust me this country is equal. Yet still people act like that

I really don't give a fornicate what happened in the past. World would be a better place is people moved on trust me. My anchesters probably starved in the Irish famine, I do not hate English people. They probably starved to death because of the English... I'm not even slightly pissy!

[danconnollyeire]

How can this country be equal when our head of state is a divine right by birth, and their whole entire family is propped up at the expense of its subjects.

What are you hard done by? Are there no opportunities for people like you?

[Datsue]

Er, I said "They're both wrong, but they're not equivalent". i.e., that I think one is more wrong than another. Show me where I said I support anyone being racist?

I'll say it again: if you've been brought up as dirt in a society that treats you as dirt, & you express your hatred for those who you see as oppressors, it is in my opinion more understandable than if you're part of the oppressing mass. Neither is right, at all, but I said one was more understandable.

When did Nick Griffin grow up in the ghetto? When were his recent, living memory ancestors lynched for their race? I wonder how often he was made to feel a second class citizen (not as in "I don't like to see Muslim butchers on my high street" but rather "You ain't coming in here 'cos you're black")? But both his & Hagler's wayward opinions are completely equivalent? Right...

PS: If your mum had to sit on the back of the bus 'cos she was Irishwould you have exactly the same opinions, or do you think you might be a bit pissy (however wrong-headed your sentiments were)?

Ghetto? We live in England... no man rules a black man. I grew up in Walthamstow and trust me this country is equal. Yet still people act like that

I really don't give a eff what happened in the past. World would be a better place is people moved on trust me. My anchesters probably starved in the Irish famine, I do not hate English people. They probably starved to death because of the English... I'm not even slightly pissy!

Um. Look mate, you're obviously wound up over this, but you need to read what I'm writing, not make shit up so you can fly off the handle some more, please. I'm willing to waste my time debating the causes & results of racism with you, particularly as you keep inventing stuff I've said to justify your outrage, but teaching you to read is getting on my wick.

I said: Hagler was brought up in a ghetto. I thought that was obvious from the context of the sentence. Hagler's relatives got lynched. I think that was obvious from the context of the sentence, too. Therefore, my point was:

You said that a black man (Hagler) who was brought up in a ghetto etc etc, shares certain opinions with a white man (Griffin) who never had any of that happen to him, & that these two are as bad as each other.

I pointed out that I think this was wrong, & you appeared to get confused because I'd used the word ghetto, even though it was blindingly obvious only one of those two blokes mentioned (Hagler & Griffin) grew up in a ghetto.

So I'll ask again: Given that Hagler had a much different upbringing than Griffin, with lots of shit happening to him because he was black, are you still saying they're as bad as each other, & can you not see where Hagler might have a tiny justification (no matter how tiny) for his wrong-headed opinion that Griffin does not have?

[thepocketrocket]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8z6qKRRdZxU



BTW, this isn't racist...it mocks the sterotyping of races , and the stupidity of having to feel guilty and apologise for what the white people who are now dust once did!! (Can't believe I had to explain that, but don't want it twisted)

[danconnollyeire]

How can this country be equal when our head of state is a divine right by birth, and their whole entire family is propped up at the expense of its subjects.

What are you hard done by? Are there no opportunities for people like you?

I'm not hard done by at all, although I don't like having my fifteen pence (or however much it is a year) spent on keeping a royal family.

I dispise the royal family, I think Buckingham Palace should be turned in to a huge homeless shelter... what has that got to do with racism?

[danconnollyeire]

I dispise the royal family, I think Buckingham Palace should be turned in to a huge homeless shelter... what has that got to do with racism?

I didn't mention racism, I responded solely to your comment about Britain being an equal country. I posed the question: How can Britain be an equal country when the head of state is a divine birth rite to the first born of one family? For some reason you started to ask about my circumstances.

Royal Family's power has pretty much fizzled out. They are more a sense of the country's identity. Nothing wrong with that

[scallum]

Hagler grew up in usa during 1950s n 1960s , there was oppression n racism galore in usa during theses times. In 1985 I was in my United States Navy dress Blues and was told my kind could not get service in Meridian , Mississippi usa. Racism is a sickness and there are Racists folks of all colours. I recently saw a site constantly complaining about being oppressed in todays times , In this day n age things are pretty much equal and life is what you make it.

[danconnollyeire]

Hagler grew up in usa during 1950s n 1960s , there was oppression n racism galore in usa during theses times. In 1985 I was in my United States Navy dress Blues and was told my kind could not get service in Meridian , Mississippi usa. Racism is a sickness and there are Racists folks of all colours. I recently saw a site constantly complaining about being oppressed in todays times , In this day n age things are pretty much equal and life is what you make it.

Life is exactly what you make of it. We can all make exuses or we can all make something of ourselves. I saw plenty of white people crying, cheering Anthony J is the Olympics. He's one of their own... there is no longer a need for anger. Anyone who is racist now, whatever their own race, should just be pitied!

[Crazyboy]

I dispise the royal family, I think Buckingham Palace should be turned in to a huge homeless shelter... what has that got to do with racism?

I didn't mention racism, I responded solely to your comment about Britain being an equal country. I posed the question: How can Britain be an equal country when the head of state is a divine birth rite to the first born of one family? For some reason you started to ask about my circumstances.

Royal Family's power has pretty much fizzled out. They are more a sense of the country's identity. Nothing wrong with that

They also bring in a MASSIVE amount of revenue into the country.....but thats an arguement for a different type of forum i think. Enjoyed reading your debate though guys

[liamlion]

They also bring in a MASSIVE amount of revenue into the country.....but thats an arguement for a different type of forum i think. Enjoyed reading your debate though guys

Do they really? Are you sure that the tourists dont primarily attend to see the many historic buildings, which the royals happened to have occupied over the years?

And even if the royals did bring in massive amounts of revenue, which i dont accept they do, does that mean that their elitist, priviliged and public subsidised existence is acceptable??

[Crazyboy]

They also bring in a MASSIVE amount of revenue into the country.....but thats an arguement for a different type of forum i think. Enjoyed reading your debate though guys

Do they really? Are you sure that the tourists dont primarily attend to see the many historic buildings, which the royals happened to have occupied over the years?

And even if the royals did bring in massive amounts of revenue, which i dont accept they do, does that mean that their elitist, priviliged and public subsidised existence is acceptable??

Yes, they do...the Wills and Kate saga alone generates more than enough.....however, i never once said i found it acceptable or indeed that i agree with the royal family or what it stands for.

[liamlion]

They also bring in a MASSIVE amount of revenue into the country.....but thats an arguement for a different type of forum i think. Enjoyed reading your debate though guys

Do they really? Are you sure that the tourists dont primarily attend to see the many historic buildings, which the royals happened to have occupied over the years?

And even if the royals did bring in massive amounts of revenue, which i dont accept they do, does that mean that their elitist, priviliged and public subsidised existence is acceptable??

Yes, they do...the Wills and Kate saga alone generates more than enough.....however, i never once said i found it acceptable or indeed that i agree with the royal family or what it stands for.

And how much exactly did it generate?? Do tell...
Have you even considered how much this event actually cost to put on? Dont believe the hype

[Crazyboy]

And how much exactly did it generate?? Do tell...
Have you even considered how much this event actually cost to put on? Dont believe the hype

well, and correct me if i'm wrong, but i was always told it costs us 50 million per year to 'run' the royal familly....but we get back around £200 mill from various sources....maybe i'm wrong.... i am no royal lover either and i have often asked the question myself.

Anyway it sounds like you know more than me, is it hype? or are YOU wrong?

PM me though as others will probably not care lol

[TheCobra]

Back to Ali - I think there is definitely more revisionism about him than any other boxer. The guy was racist beyond belief and a total bully to boot. Still a great boxer though, but as a man I don't have any time for him, yes he got ill, so what, he was still a dick.

[reggaereggae]

People change and generally mellow as they get older. I believe Hagler has a white wife and is very happy in his life in Italy

[Khaosai-Galaxy]

OK, Ali was part of the Nation of Islam who let's say, didn't have great views on white people.

Then, in the 70's, he pointed out that he had no real problem with Apartheid, he just wished the South African blacks got treated better (more of a seperate but equal theory)

By 1996 he has Parkinsons, is lighting the Olympic torch and is seen as a hero.

My question is, had Ali sofened his stance by the time he got ill? Or did he get ill, start shaking, withdraw from making public appearences/statements ect and then benefit from positive revisionism??

Genuine open question as this is never rally spoken about

Its amazing the number of black people (that i have spoken to) that had no problem with Apartheid, it happens unofficially in every country anyway. It worked better in SA than is generally perceived too, it wasnt all rich whites exploiting poor blacks, there were a lot of rolls royces and BMWs driving around the townships in the 70s and 80s.

It wasnt perfect by any means, but it wasn't "evil" either.


What the ANC are currently doing is just plain criminal.



Anyway, OT.