BoxRec

loaded_gloves wrote:

stujones wrote:

loaded_gloves wrote:Stu - have you seen any of the fights you're discussing? Honestly?

Schulz, Grimsley and Briggs all employed the Tommy Morrison 'strategy' of running away from Foreman and not mixing it up for a second. Certainly his power was waning, but he could still whack. Schulz in his career proved himself to be super-durable but Foreman hit him with a horrifying uppercut that froze him. He couldn't catch him up because Schulz wouldn't fight. Briggs certainly felt Foreman's power and looked close to wilting more than once, as RJJ at ringside noted. Briggs himself admitted he had been hurt. Savarese didn't have the mobility to move around so Foreman pulverised his face and had him out on his feet at one point. Savarese also went 10 with the big hitting Michael Grant and another 10 with Mount Whitaker who clearly didn't tickle when he clubbed you.

The bottom line is Foreman still could go 12 and club you - Tyson would never, ever have ran like the others did. As Foreman said post-Schulz 'Tyson is too brave to run. We'll stand and fight and someone will hit the ground'. Now maybe that man would be Foreman, maybe not. But if Tyson were to win I feel it would look more like the second Ruddock fight. Foreman more than proved across 30 years that he knew how to survive in the ring.

I've seen those fights and yes Tyson wouldn't have employed those tactics - but we are talking C level fighters in Savarese and Schultz and even lower than that in Grimsley. Foreman alledegely won those all those fights on points (there is no way he really beat Schultz in reality), so that means he landed shots but he didn't have the speed to pull the trigger to follow up.

Tyson never got destroyed in 2-3 rounds like Mugabi feels Foreman would have been capable of, and he faced bigger punchers than the 90's Foreman. But Foreman didn't face anyone of the speed, power and combination punching ability of Tyson. As good as Foreman's chin and survival instincts were - they would have been severely tested by Tyson, like no man had tested them before.

Even without needing the footwork, Foreman would have been too slow, not enough power and not being able to get the combinations off against Tyson. Foreman might have surived, hold push back etc - the way to beat Mike, but he wouldn't have had the speed of punch to make pay etc like Holyfield and Douglas did.

Tyson didn't have the head movement of old, but he would have slipped that slow jab. This wasn't the Foreman who gave Holyfield a decent fight. Now that Foreman might have been interesting. There was just more snap to Tyson's punches and Foreman I feel would have got hurt - cause his defense was still not great and I just don't think he would have caught him. I don't think Foreman had one punch KO power back then also - which is critical.

You think Foreman's defence wasn't great?

You're talking about a man who hit the deck three times from 1969 to 1997.

The man's defence and chin was A***.

In his last two fights he was a near 50 year old man fighting bangers, and nether of them could so much as put him on the floor. The latter had Lewis flailing around the ring in his very next fight. Schulz C Level? He gave Moorer quite a challenge and Moorer himself beat Holyfield who dehumanised Tyson twice in a row. Foreman went 12 with Holyfield 91, who was head and shoulders above Tyson 91 or Tyson 96. You can contest that if you want, but I'll leave it to Holyfield's comments regarding Tyson post-smashing him to pieces. 'He don't hit like Foreman or Bowe. Heart? The man just doesn't have it'

Yes we can contest it all and its all about the angles. You might want to look at Schulz's close fight against Moorer, but he also lost to Botha who lost to Tyson and Moorer. He also lost heavily (both times, don't care what the judges said) to Henry Akinwande. He was a solid EBU level fight, not quite as good as Mavrovic but alright - should he have been contesting for a title? Absolutely not

Saying C class is being kind to Grimsley and Saverese surely you would admit that.

Not disputing Foreman's chin, but I am disputing his defense as someone else said here - Alex Stewart made his head like a pumpkin. Foreman never faced a puncher like Tyson.

Anyway my main dispute was with the other poster who claimed that Foreman would have destroyed Mike in 2-3 one sided rounds.... How? With the famed punch that couldn't put away Briggs, Saverese etc.

You think Schulz lost to Botha?

Have you seen this fight? I remember it live on Eurosport. And I remember the condemnation of the result in every boxing magazine and report. You're coming off in this thread as if you judge fighters by contests you have never seen or researched.

Foreman never fought a puncher like Tyson? Are Ron Lyle, Joe Frazier, Ken Norton, Gerry Cooney, Tommy Morrison, Michael Moorer, Bert Cooper, Evander Holyfield, Alex Stewart and Shannon Briggs not heavy handed enough for you? There are men in that list who I would say hit as hard as Tyson, and there are men in that list who hit harder than Tyson. You seem to rate him as some kind of supernatural puncher, which is ridiculous.

Obviously Foreman in the 90s isn't going to blow Tyson out early, but Tyson's come forward style will play into his big ogreish hands far more than young men who run away from him and won't engage, which was every single opponent he faced after Moorer.

loaded_gloves wrote:You think Schulz lost to Botha?

Have you seen this fight? I remember it live on Eurosport. And I remember the condemnation of the result in every boxing magazine and report. You're coming off in this thread as if you judge fighters by contests you have never seen or researched.

Foreman never fought a puncher like Tyson? Are Ron Lyle, Joe Frazier, Ken Norton, Gerry Cooney, Tommy Morrison, Michael Moorer, Bert Cooper, Evander Holyfield, Alex Stewart and Shannon Briggs not heavy handed enough for you? There are men in that list who I would say hit as hard as Tyson, and there are men in that list who hit harder than Tyson. You seem to rate him as some kind of supernatural puncher, which is ridiculous.

Obviously Foreman in the 90s isn't going to blow Tyson out early, but Tyson's come forward style will play into his big ogreish hands far more than young men who run away from him and won't engage, which was every single opponent he faced after Moorer.

Botha vs Schultz was closer than Foreman vs Schultz IMO both times Schultz was hard done by but the Botha fight was close IMO. Irrespective of whether he won or lost Botha if you think he was world class than fine.... I remember vividly the reaction of the press when he was announced as Foreman's first title defence - there were even comparison's to the Joe Louis "Bum of the Month". Even if you think he got the nod over Botha... its still Frans Botha we are talking about - I wouldn't call Frans world class sorry. Tough and brave but horrendously limited as Lewis showed.

All of those fighters hit as hard as Tyson and I'm the one trolling? IMO - NONE of those fighters mentioned who George fought in his second career hit as hard as Tyson. First career ones that you mention - yeah possibly open for debate... but Moorer, Cooper, Holyfield, Briggs etc - are you being serious?

I personally thought that Saverese wasn't negative against Foreman, indeed Saverese came out of that fight with a lot of credit and was even named as a potential Lennox Lewis opponent after that. He gave it a good go IMO.

Ah well, we'll just have to agree to disagree. It 'might' interest you to know Oliver McCall rated Bert Cooper as the hardest hitter he ever came across. This is a man who sparred hundreds of rounds with Tyson and decked him before Spinks and he said one particular hook from Cooper was like colliding with a truck. Interestingly, he didn't rate Lewis even in his top 5 punchers he fought, which certainly bears out with his indifferent reaction to Lewis's shots hitting him square on the chin in the rematch.

Something tells me Holyfield would have to concede Cooper hurt him more with one shot than Tyson managed in 14 rounds.

If you don't think the likes of Ron Lyle, Gerry Cooney and Tommy Morrison are punchers I think a lot of people would have to bring your judgment into question.

loaded_gloves wrote:Ah well, we'll just have to agree to disagree. It 'might' interest you to know Oliver McCall rated Bert Cooper as the hardest hitter he ever came across. This is a man who sparred hundreds of rounds with Tyson and decked him before Spinks and he said one particular hook from Cooper was like colliding with a truck. Interestingly, he didn't rate Lewis even in his top 5 punchers he fought, which certainly bears out with his indifferent reaction to Lewis's shots hitting him square on the chin in the rematch.

Something tells me Holyfield would have to concede Cooper hurt him more with one shot than Tyson managed in 14 rounds.

If you don't think the likes of Ron Lyle, Gerry Cooney and Tommy Morrison are punchers I think a lot of people would have to bring your judgment into question.

I said Lyle could be up for a debate as a harder puncher than Tyson - I gave you that one. I never said Cooney and Morrison were not punchers, just think they were not at the same level as Tyson. Lyle, Frazier and Norton yep fair calls.... the laters ones we'll agree to disagree in terms of if they hit as hard as Tyson.... I don't think they are even in the same category as Tyson in terms of punch power and speed. The late great Manny Steward when interviewed about Moorer vs Holyfield 2 said that in his opinion there were only 3 Heavyweights at that time who he felt had true knockout power - Lewis, Tyson and Moorer. No mention of Holyfield, Foreman (maybe Foreman was classed as retired at this time), Morrison etc. Now personally I don't consider Moorer as powerful as Lewis and Tyson.

I wonder if Carl The Truth Williams or Henry Tillman would agree with Oliver McCall assessment of Bert Cooper being a better puncher than Tyson. My judgements are more on performances rather than what fighters say - particularly fighters with a history of mental health problems. As an example, not sure many boxing pundits would consider Herbie Hide a better puncher than either Holyfield, Copper and Lewis (if you count the amateur contest) despite what Riddick Bowe said. McCall has continually said that he got the better of Tyson in sparring and dominated him.... now something tells me he might have been saying that to make the press and to further his own career. There is footage of them two sparring and its McCall leaving the ring in tears.

I remember that Manny Steward comment. Morrison and Foreman were history by that point so no surprise they are not mentioned. I doubt Manny would credit Tommy anyway, but whatever he certainly bashed some skulls in his day and scored some horrific knockouts.

Not sure what Williams or Tillman would say about Cooper's power in comparison to Tyson, its a good question, but Cooper did hurt them and had them both on the floor. If they were honest they would have to admit he could bang.

I think you're taking poetic licence with that Tyson/McCall sparring session. I see no tears but a sparring partner getting pissed that Tyson is illegally hitting him on the hip. I don't think sparring partners get paid enough to endure low blows, hip shots, elbows or anything of that nature and I think McCall did the right thing. It is well known why he was a long time employee of Tyson, people like Jose Torres rated him as the most dangerous and capable of the Tyson sparring partners ('The Fire & the Fear') and absolutely he did deck Tyson in 88. For whatever that's worth. What the hell are we talking about again?

I filmed him training during the week leading up to the show, Archie Moore was with him, got an interview with t hem, nice memorys

Eric, have you considered putting that footage on YouTube?

ERIC GUY wrote:I filmed him training during the week leading up to the show, Archie Moore was with him, got an interview with t hem, nice memorys

If I remember rightly wasn't he also in the corner?

mickey1975 wrote:

Old bones Ian wrote:

Riddick Blowe wrote:Holy shit, I had no idea George fought in the UK. A six-year-old me probably wouldn't have cared much at the time, but someone should probably have told me out of courtesy still.

I was 18 when George fought here, god i feel old now. But i do remember it being on an odd night, and when i looked it was a Tuesday! not many boxing bills on that day of the week.

Tyson-Spinks was on a Monday for some reason.

Think they moved it back a couple of days because Barry McGuigan was boxing Da Cruz at Luton FCs ground on Saturday night.

I do hope your joking.

Oh mickey