BoxRec

Rover wrote:

Ezzard wrote:Yes, he definitely retired too early.

LaPorte, Pedroza and Taylor were all world class fighters. Unfortunately Barry had issues outside of the ring. A fight with the ageing Gomez at 130 might have made sense but those out of the ring problems would probably have got to him eventually.

The Cruz fight was amazing. How McGuigan got back into the fight I've no idea. Very sad to see him go in that final round.

Big fights with Nelson, Fenech were on the cards. Would have been classics.

Glad McGuigan/Gomez didn't happen. After the Lockridge "win," Gomez was done, as Alfredo Layne unfortunately showed. Also, Gomez had to fight his mandatory after the Lockridge bout, which he didn't do for approx. a year; we all know what happened, so a Barry fight never would've materialized.

McGuigan was offered and turned down the fight.

Barry was one of the most popular fighters at the time. He could draw a huge crowd. A fight with McGuigan represented a big pay day. The idea was to get him to the US and develop him into an American star. Unfortunately it didn’t happen.

Seamus wrote:If I remember correctly, I believe Steve Cruz arrived in Las Vegas earlier and had gotten himself acclaimated to the intense heat alot better than McGuigan did. Of course, it was just as hot for Cruz, but he was better prepared for it. As for McGuigan's win over Bernard Taylor. I believe Taylor quit because his ribs turned out to be broken.

It's very common now to criticize McGuigan as a highly overrated media darling, but the truth is, that while he certainly never reached his full potential, he did have very good boxing skills. Eusebio Pedroza was past his best, but he was still champion and coming off a wide decision win over Jorge Lujan. Barry gave him a one sided beating and took his title. Bernard Taylor was considered by some pundits to have the fastest hands in all of boxing. McGuigan busted him up with bodyshots and made him quit after 8 rounds. And there was also that clear decision win over Juan Laporte, who still had strong performances against Chavez and Azumah Nelson left in him.

He was a superb body puncher with a great left hook…and an underrated right.

His biggest problem was that he really only had one way of fighting. He found it hard to adapt. He couldn’t fight off the back foot and if he wasn’t walking forwards his effectiveness diminished.

Ezzard wrote:

Rover wrote:

Ezzard wrote:Yes, he definitely retired too early.

LaPorte, Pedroza and Taylor were all world class fighters. Unfortunately Barry had issues outside of the ring. A fight with the ageing Gomez at 130 might have made sense but those out of the ring problems would probably have got to him eventually.

The Cruz fight was amazing. How McGuigan got back into the fight I've no idea. Very sad to see him go in that final round.

Big fights with Nelson, Fenech were on the cards. Would have been classics.

Glad McGuigan/Gomez didn't happen. After the Lockridge "win," Gomez was done, as Alfredo Layne unfortunately showed. Also, Gomez had to fight his mandatory after the Lockridge bout, which he didn't do for approx. a year; we all know what happened, so a Barry fight never would've materialized.

McGuigan was offered and turned down the fight.

Barry was one of the most popular fighters at the time. He could draw a huge crowd. A fight with McGuigan represented a big pay day. The idea was to get him to the US and develop him into an American star. Unfortunately it didn’t happen.

Why would McGuigan's management turn down Gomez? Considering Gomez was very much on the downside of his career but was still a big name nonetheless. Very odd decision indeed

Sven Tingstrom wrote: So, unlike you, I spent the afternoon researching the Cruz career. The McGuigan fight was his FIRST outdoors. He was not accustomed to fighting in the heat any more than McGuigan. Ha Ha!

Oh really, thats interesting, sources please.

Rover wrote: 1. I couldn't care less what a medical correspondent for the BBBC says; homeland bias.
2. You're reduced to the argument that "you can't prove he didn't"? Pathetic form of argumentation. "Living in" (and not 125 degrees, BTW) and "fighting in" are two different things entirely.
3. The 90s? It was 125 in that ring, not in the 90's.
4. As to your comment about "darker" skin: Are you saying that black/hispanic fighters fight better in heat? BTW, that has NOTHING to do with where one lives (skin color).
5. Your altitude analogy is way off. Cruz didn't live in anything close to 125 degree temperatures. Also, if fighters who live at high altitude fight in their hometowns, they clearly have fought at high altitude v. fighting in extreme heat, which can be cured simply by an indoor arena at a normal temperature.

1. Likewise I couldn't care what Chris Schenkel says. I am more inclined to listen to a Doctor than the US broadcaster, homeland bias.

2. I didn't reduce the argument you did. You argument was "when did Cruz fight in those condition", likewise I can say to you "prove he didn't"

3. The point you miss time and time again is McGuigan is from Belfast a cold and wet place. Cruz was from Texas a hot and humid place. Read any website and Fort Worth is described as many things in summer, a furnace, scorching, boiling, baking, something Belfast has never been described as being. Also not mentioned is Fort Worth is a humid place. It is something you can't get away from, even if the temperatures are "only in the 90s", you sweat a lot more and it is harder to breathe. Conditions anyone not used to being in would struggle with. Humidity is very draining.

4. People with darker skin are less likely to burn than a pasty Irishman, especially when they already live in hot conditions.

5. You are still missing the point. Cruz lived in a very hot place, McGuigan didn't.

A simple question, who do you think was better suited to fighting in the heat Cruz or McGuigan?

Controversial wrote:Barry McGuigan was always a favourite of mine but I do wonder if he retired too young (not long turned 29). He went out after being stopped on a cut against McDonnell in a fight that was quite tight upto being stopped, so its not like he was knocked out, a bad cut could happen to anyone. Any else think he should have given it another crack?

His other defeat to Cruz was quite unlucky, he was winning the fight right until the last round when those knockdowns tipped the scores the other way, the extreme heat was the issue, not Cruz in my opinion.

I concur with others....all of the out of the ring stuff the deaths, the pudendum eastwood on his back..all the hassle got to him, plus in those days 28-29 was an advanced age for a feather and he had been fighting a long long time.....in Barrys mind he was so dominant on his best day he would have stopped both Cruz and Mcdonnell. The Cruz fight can be excused but the mcdonnell loss was a very poor one at that point barry just got beaten up until the cut he was being outclassed in a subtle but clear way.

Try this

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport ... 39661.html

I think he wanted to stay at 126. McGuigan needed to stay at feather for as long as he could because his power and durability would be lessened at the higher weight. And at the time Gomez seemed like a spent force. I know boxing is different now but boxers almost never went back down a weight division once they went up a weigh division.

Cruz was though an underachiever. He was a quality fighter who was tipped for the top early on in his career. he had the pedigree. And Mcguigan had struggled with Cabrera a makeshift sub. McGuigan was fighting a lower quality of opponent and the intensity had gone a little. He had been a relentless trainer and like many British greats he probably overtrained which shortened his career…that and a style that would always blow him out at an early age.

But…there were still a few big fights left in him.

mercman wrote:

Rover wrote:

mercman wrote:Rover - yes, of course I know there are lots of non-Mexican Texans. Nobody said otherwise. However, the fact is that Cruz is of Mexican descent and that's why it has been raised.

And I (and plenty of other posters on this thread) think it is relevant that he was accustomed to the heat and that McGuigan was not. McGuigan may or may not have won had the fight been in Ireland but it is clear that the heat affected him very badly, much more so than Cruz. It's just the way it was.

1. What does Cruz's being of Mexican dissent have to do with anything? His being from Texas...I understand bringing that up, but the Mexican dissent point is meaningless.
2. You continue to say that Cruz was accustomed to the heat, citing his being from Texas. First, it doesn't often (if ever) get to 125 degrees in Texas. Second, when did Cruz fight in that type of heat before? If not, you can't say he was accustomed to it. I'm accustomed to freezing weather where I live. That doesn't mean I'd be accustomed to fighting at, say, 0 degrees outside.

This is getting boring now. Firstly, you contradict yourself in points 1) and 2) above. In point 1) you say you understand why the fact that Cruz lived in Texas was brought up, then in point 2) you seem to imply that his being from Texas isn't relevant because it doesn't get that hot there. You can't have it both ways. Furthermore, you bring up the fact that you are used to freezing weather. So what? Nobody mentioned the effects of the cold. Don't be obtuse.

Leaving all that aside, it is pretty obvious that a pasty Irishman who had never fought in such conditions would be disadvantaged fighting against a dark-skinned fighter used to living, training and, yes, fighting in the heat. Do you think he fought and trained exclusively in air conditioned luxury surroundings on his way up?

1. There's no contradiction. Though it's false, I can understand one's arguing that because Cruz lived in a warmer climate, he'd be used to fighting in heat. That's false because (1) the 90s and 125 are different things; and (2) living and fighting in are two different things. Understanding that wrong argument and then pointing out that Mexican dissent is irrelevant are not contradictory.
2. You bring up dark v. light skin. But that has nothing to do with where one has lived. So black fighters have an advantage when fighting in heat then, right?
3. The only plausible argument I could see is that Cruz arrived earlier and acclamated himself better to the heat. But McGuigan could've done the same thing, and that has nothing to do with where one has lived.
If you think this is getting "boring," you're of course free to bow out.
BTW, there's no difference between extreme cold and extreme heat. One can result in frostbite and freezing to death; the exact opposite can occur with heat.

Ezzard wrote:

Rover wrote:

Ezzard wrote:Yes, he definitely retired too early.

LaPorte, Pedroza and Taylor were all world class fighters. Unfortunately Barry had issues outside of the ring. A fight with the ageing Gomez at 130 might have made sense but those out of the ring problems would probably have got to him eventually.

The Cruz fight was amazing. How McGuigan got back into the fight I've no idea. Very sad to see him go in that final round.

Big fights with Nelson, Fenech were on the cards. Would have been classics.

Glad McGuigan/Gomez didn't happen. After the Lockridge "win," Gomez was done, as Alfredo Layne unfortunately showed. Also, Gomez had to fight his mandatory after the Lockridge bout, which he didn't do for approx. a year; we all know what happened, so a Barry fight never would've materialized.

McGuigan was offered and turned down the fight.

Barry was one of the most popular fighters at the time. He could draw a huge crowd. A fight with McGuigan represented a big pay day. The idea was to get him to the US and develop him into an American star. Unfortunately it didn’t happen.

I'd be surprised if the Panama-based WBA would've agreed to that, considering that the Gomez/Lockridge winner was mandated to fight Panamanian Layne.

Controversial wrote:

Sven Tingstrom wrote: So, unlike you, I spent the afternoon researching the Cruz career. The McGuigan fight was his FIRST outdoors. He was not accustomed to fighting in the heat any more than McGuigan. Ha Ha!

Oh really, thats interesting, sources please.

Rover wrote: 1. I couldn't care less what a medical correspondent for the BBBC says; homeland bias.
2. You're reduced to the argument that "you can't prove he didn't"? Pathetic form of argumentation. "Living in" (and not 125 degrees, BTW) and "fighting in" are two different things entirely.
3. The 90s? It was 125 in that ring, not in the 90's.
4. As to your comment about "darker" skin: Are you saying that black/hispanic fighters fight better in heat? BTW, that has NOTHING to do with where one lives (skin color).
5. Your altitude analogy is way off. Cruz didn't live in anything close to 125 degree temperatures. Also, if fighters who live at high altitude fight in their hometowns, they clearly have fought at high altitude v. fighting in extreme heat, which can be cured simply by an indoor arena at a normal temperature.

1. Likewise I couldn't care what Chris Schenkel says. I am more inclined to listen to a Doctor than the US broadcaster, homeland bias.

2. I didn't reduce the argument you did. You argument was "when did Cruz fight in those condition", likewise I can say to you "prove he didn't"

3. The point you miss time and time again is McGuigan is from Belfast a cold and wet place. Cruz was from Texas a hot and humid place. Read any website and Fort Worth is described as many things in summer, a furnace, scorching, boiling, baking, something Belfast has never been described as being. Also not mentioned is Fort Worth is a humid place. It is something you can't get away from, even if the temperatures are "only in the 90s", you sweat a lot more and it is harder to breathe. Conditions anyone not used to being in would struggle with. Humidity is very draining.

4. People with darker skin are less likely to burn than a pasty Irishman, especially when they already live in hot conditions.

5. You are still missing the point. Cruz lived in a very hot place, McGuigan didn't.

A simple question, who do you think was better suited to fighting in the heat Cruz or McGuigan?

1. McGuigan acknowledged the scorching heat in the Taylor fight, so there was no dispute about how hot it was, and Shenkel talked about it BEFORE the fight had even begun. Taylor was from Charlotte, a warmer location, and he had darker skin, so Shenkel's comments I cited weren't made as an excuse for Taylor post-fight, though he did repeat them post-fight.
2. No, there's a difference between asking one to prove something v. one saying, "prove a negative."
Examples:
A: Prove X is a child molester.
B: Well, you can't prove X isn't! See the difference?

3. You continue to bring up "living in" heat. "Living in" a state where temperatures can get into the 90s is far different than fighting in 125 degrees.

4. Ah, the "dark skin" thing again. That has nothing to do with where one has lived nor with one's being subject to heat exhaustion.
Imagine if a boxing analyst before a fight said something like, "I favor X because he's black and Y is white, and it's very hot, so the dark skin should be an advantage."
Career...OVER.
And living in the 90s and fighting at 125 are apples and oranges.

The fight had been discussed for some time. Barry was a lucrative fighter who would bring much bigger sanctioning fees.

I’m no insider and can’t say anything 100% but this match up was no big secret.

Ezzard wrote:The fight had been discussed for some time. Barry was a lucrative fighter who would bring much bigger sanctioning fees.

I’m no insider and can’t say anything 100% but this match up was no big secret.

I know it was discussed; I also know how loyal the WBA was to Panama.
The WBA (actually, a Panamian government official) called Cuevas's manager to let him know that a fight with Leonard wouldn't happen; the WBA wanted Duran to be able to fight Ray, even though Duran wasn't a WBA champ at the time and Cuevas was, hence the huge sanctioning fees the WBA would've gotten from a Cuevas/Leonard unification.
Pat Putnam discussed this in a March 1981 Sports Illustrated article about how awful the WBA was.

mercman wrote:Rover, you say "there's no difference between extreme cold and extreme heat". Erm, yes there is. Furthermore, heat played a part in the McGuigan v Cruz fight, cold did not. And, yes, it is getting boring now. Trying to have a debate with somebody that chooses to disregard clear evidence is quite tiresome. There's not much else to say on this one I'm afraid .

Both heat and cold are just as harmful if exposure is prolongued.
Frostbite v. heatstroke.
And the heat impacted both fighters. The fact that Cruz lived in a climate 30+ degrees colder than the ring temperatures (lived there, mind you; nothing to suggest he'd ever fought 15 rounds in 90 degrees--actually, this was his first 15-rounder) wouldn't have prepared him for 125 degrees (fighting at that temperature).

What beat Sugar Ray Robinson? The heat or Joey Maxim? I think it is a relevant question to this debate. Ray virtually collapsed from heat exhaustion and had to retire from the fight. He had put in a lot of work, much more than the conservative approach wisely favoured by Maxim. I believe this was a similar case to McGuigan's, Cruz being a replacement opponent, viewed as an easy touch. At the time video footage was bandied around showing Cruz being starched in 1 round. Mcguigan was therfore expected to blow Cruz out in short order. When that did not happen Barry had used up a lot of steam. It was all a case of taking an opponent lightly, expelling too much energy early doors looking the KO and impressing the American TV networks. The heat came in to play when the plan did not work and was a major cause to the eventual outcome.

Ketchel wrote:What beat Sugar Ray Robinson? The heat or Joey Maxim? I think it is a relevant question to this debate. Ray virtually collapsed from heat exhaustion and had to retire from the fight. He had put in a lot of work, much more than the conservative approach wisely favoured by Maxim. I believe this was a similar case to McGuigan's, Cruz being a replacement opponent, viewed as an easy touch. At the time video footage was bandied around showing Cruz being starched in 1 round. Mcguigan was therfore expected to blow Cruz out in short order. When that did not happen Barry had used up a lot of steam. It was all a case of taking an opponent lightly, expelling too much energy early doors looking the KO and impressing the American TV networks. The heat came in to play when the plan did not work and was a major cause to the eventual outcome.

But Cruz also fought furiously; he wasn't conservative at all.
And the argument being advanced is that Cruz had an advantage because he was from Texas where it could get into the 90s. The 90s isn't 125.
As for the "he took him lightly" excuse, that's an easy way to discredit every upset:
"He took him lightly!"
And now McGuigan lost because he wanted to impress the American audience?
McGuigan had been on American TV several times (Laporte, Pedroza, Taylor, Cabrera). He fought in front of millions of Americans. I highly doubt he was that concerned about impressing the 11,000 or so at Caesar's Palace.
Of course, if he really was, he should've...dunno...trained to fight like that (responding to the implication that he'd not trained as hard because he took Cruz lightly).

Sven Tingstrom wrote:I guess it is too bad for us Swedes that Ingo didn't fight all his title defenses at Råsunda in December, and he'd still be heavyweight champion!!

I have visited Fort Worth Texas USA in the summer. It was not anywhere near 125 degrees F! The idea that Cruz was more accustomed to fighting in 125 degree F than McGuigan is absurd.

I rarely retrort to insults but its easier when reading the stupidity and retarded absurdity of your posts.

Controversial wrote:

Sven Tingstrom wrote: So, unlike you, I spent the afternoon researching the Cruz career. The McGuigan fight was his FIRST outdoors. He was not accustomed to fighting in the heat any more than McGuigan. Ha Ha!

Oh really, thats interesting, sources please.

Ha! Ha! Do your own research. It's easy, but time consuming. (1) Find Cruz's record. (2) Look at the venue. (3) Search it on your search engine. (4) Go to appropriate link and find out whether the venue is outdoors or indoors.

mugabi wrote:

Sven Tingstrom wrote:I guess it is too bad for us Swedes that Ingo didn't fight all his title defenses at Råsunda in December, and he'd still be heavyweight champion!!

I have visited Fort Worth Texas USA in the summer. It was not anywhere near 125 degrees F! The idea that Cruz was more accustomed to fighting in 125 degree F than McGuigan is absurd.

I rarely retrort to insults but its easier when reading the stupidity and retarded absurdity of your posts.

If you have nothing to offer but insults, why don't you crawl back under your rock?

These arguments are all Barry's fault. So much for his ability to bring people together and stop them fighting :x

bollox wrote:These arguments are all Barry's fault. So much for his ability to bring people together and stop them fighting :x

Rover wrote:
The only plausible argument I could see is that Cruz arrived earlier and acclamated himself better to the heat. But McGuigan could've done the same thing, and that has nothing to do with where one has lived.

Correct McGuigan hadn't acclimatised to the heat. Thats what I said from the very beginning, the heat beat him. So what are you arguing about?

Rover wrote:
McGuigan acknowledged the scorching heat in the Taylor fight, so there was no dispute about how hot it was, and Shenkel talked about it BEFORE the fight had even begun. Taylor was from Charlotte, a warmer location, and he had darker skin, so Shenkel's comments I cited weren't made as an excuse for Taylor post-fight, though he did repeat them post-fight.

You continue to bring up "living in" heat. "Living in" a state where temperatures can get into the 90s is far different than fighting in 125 degrees.

Ah, the "dark skin" thing again. That has nothing to do with where one has lived nor with one's being subject to heat exhaustion.

For the record I never said skin colour had anything to do with dehydration or heat stroke, what I said was people with dark skin do not burn as easy as someone with pale skin. Cruz stated his back was burning from the sun, if he was struggling then McGuigan would have struggled far more.

Whatever the conditions a night time fight is no way comparable to fighting in a desert sun. Its funny how your refer to the 8 round Taylor fight as some sort of proof that McGuigan could therefore fight in any hot climate yet because Cruz spent his entire life living in a hot and humid place that is somehow not relevant?

Don Curry, Cruz's stable mate even said before the fight 'Stevie has been in the heat all his life. He's used to it.' Exactly the point.

Another line from an interview with Cruz states "McGuigan was obviously exhausted by the heat and the fight's furious pace. But Cruz's chest still rose and fell easily. It was 108° ringside. The highest recorded temperature in the history of McGuigan's native British Isles is 100.5°. It can get to that in the shade on some days in Fort Worth." Did you read that, it can get that hot in the shade.

You and your Swedish friend seem to be the only ones who think the conditions had nothing to do with the result (unless you are talking about the Taylor fight), even though it is plainly obvious McGuigan was suffering.

I will ask the same question again, who was more suited to fighting in those conditions that day Cruz or McGuigan?

Controversial wrote:You and your Swedish friend seem to be the only ones who think the conditions had nothing to do with the result (unless you are talking about the Taylor fight), even though it is plainly obvious McGuigan was suffering.

I will ask the same question again, who was more suited to fighting in those conditions that day Cruz or McGuigan?

Oh, I think the heat had alot to do with it! But it was just as hot for both guys! It denigrates from Cruz victory to say he won (or McGuigan lost) only because of the heat. But it was certainly a factor. Yes, of course!

In answer to your question, neither was "more suited." Neither had fought in 125 F before. Neither knew what to expect or how he would do because neither had done it before.

BarryWashington wrote:hey i aint do nuffin

Controversial wrote:

Rover wrote:
The only plausible argument I could see is that Cruz arrived earlier and acclamated himself better to the heat. But McGuigan could've done the same thing, and that has nothing to do with where one has lived.

Correct McGuigan hadn't acclimatised to the heat. Thats what I said from the very beginning, the heat beat him. So what are you arguing about?

Rover wrote:
McGuigan acknowledged the scorching heat in the Taylor fight, so there was no dispute about how hot it was, and Shenkel talked about it BEFORE the fight had even begun. Taylor was from Charlotte, a warmer location, and he had darker skin, so Shenkel's comments I cited weren't made as an excuse for Taylor post-fight, though he did repeat them post-fight.

You continue to bring up "living in" heat. "Living in" a state where temperatures can get into the 90s is far different than fighting in 125 degrees.

Ah, the "dark skin" thing again. That has nothing to do with where one has lived nor with one's being subject to heat exhaustion.

For the record I never said skin colour had anything to do with dehydration or heat stroke, what I said was people with dark skin do not burn as easy as someone with pale skin. Cruz stated his back was burning from the sun, if he was struggling then McGuigan would have struggled far more.

Whatever the conditions a night time fight is no way comparable to fighting in a desert sun. Its funny how your refer to the 8 round Taylor fight as some sort of proof that McGuigan could therefore fight in any hot climate yet because Cruz spent his entire life living in a hot and humid place that is somehow not relevant?

Don Curry, Cruz's stable mate even said before the fight 'Stevie has been in the heat all his life. He's used to it.' Exactly the point.

Another line from an interview with Cruz states "McGuigan was obviously exhausted by the heat and the fight's furious pace. But Cruz's chest still rose and fell easily. It was 108° ringside. The highest recorded temperature in the history of McGuigan's native British Isles is 100.5°. It can get to that in the shade on some days in Fort Worth." Did you read that, it can get that hot in the shade.

You and your Swedish friend seem to be the only ones who think the conditions had nothing to do with the result (unless you are talking about the Taylor fight), even though it is plainly obvious McGuigan was suffering.

I will ask the same question again, who was more suited to fighting in those conditions that day Cruz or McGuigan?

And when did Cruz FIGHT in 108 degrees? That's my entire point.
My answer to your question is the same as Sven's.
And the Taylor fight is relevant because it was over 100 degrees (its being at night is irrelevant because we're talking about temperature), and it was Taylor, from North Carolina, who was more affected.

Rover wrote: And when did Cruz FIGHT in 108 degrees? That's my entire point.
My answer to your question is the same as Sven's.
And the Taylor fight is relevant because it was over 100 degrees (its being at night is irrelevant because we're talking about temperature), and it was Taylor, from North Carolina, who was more affected.

We are going around circles and will never agree. Neither man had fought in the "exact" same conditions before so its a pointless argument to have. It all boils down to what fighter was more suited and prepared to being in a hot and sunny environment, it is quite clearly Cruz not McGuigan. What can I say anymore, you two are clearly in the minority so I see no point in continuing this.