BoxRec

Blue wrote: So that's TWO opportunities the two could have met if the promoters had the fans interest at heart.

No stiffs (As U put It.) should ever be fighting for a world title. :(

Eubank, Brewer, Reid & Mitchell were the only legit top fighters he met and the last two should have gotten immediate returns.(A la Tarver-Jones.)

Starie, Sheika, Veit (Now there’s a padded record) and Woodhall were mere fringe contenders served up by the WBO.

No one has told U who he's ducked that was favored to beat him because the real competitive fights were never made.
Frank makes sure of that.

Woodhall was a former WBC champ.

Did Woodhall ever beat a world class opponent though? The Branco win looks good I suppose but what else?

I'm interested to know what people make of Woodhalls world championship claim.

Kilburn wrote:Did Woodhall ever beat a world class opponent though?

Nope. His best win was a UD over a 43-year old sugar Boy Malinga. Also squeaked out a dubious decision over Glenn Catley. And Richie was very much on the slide when Joe fought him.

Blue wrote: Eubank, Brewer, Reid & Mitchell were the only legit top fighters he met and the last two should have gotten immediate returns.(A la Tarver-Jones.)

I don't think any of the names you came up with are better than the above four at super middle.
I never really rated Woodhall either TBH.

Guys like Lucas and Beyer were both beaten by Catley.
Calzaghe met Catley as an amateur and sparked him inside a round.

MightyWarrior wrote:Calzaghe met Catley as an amateur and sparked him inside a round.

Silly argument - "because he won ina 3-round amateur contest 15 years ago, there's no need for him to fight." Well, my older sister once beat me at armwrestling when we were kids...

More "he doesn't need to fight him, because he'd clearly wax him" circular arguments from the Calzaghe fans. Let's see if I can sum up the flawed reasoning:

Calzaghe beats fighter A, who was world class a few years ago, or who once fought a world-class fighter, also years ago. That means that there's no point in Joe fighting fighter B, who is currently world-class, because Joe's beaten guys like that before, even if the guys like that who Joe beat were that way years before Joe fought them.

Yep, that sounds about right in its degree of convolution and speciousness. To cut through this load of bollocks, allow me to pose a simple question:

Of the 19 men currently ranked in the BoxRec top 20 at supermiddleweight along with Calzaghe, how many has Joe actually fought and beaten?

Eric the Viking wrote:

Kilburn wrote:Did Woodhall ever beat a world class opponent though?

Nope. His best win was a UD over a 43-year old sugar Boy Malinga. Also squeaked out a dubious decision over Glenn Catley. And Richie was very much on the slide when Joe fought him.

I saw many of Woodhalls fights live and many more on TV. He was a quality Amatuer but not one of our better World Champs IMO. Having said that he had some classic 'Traditional British' boxing skills and would give any of the top Super-Middles over the last 10 years plenty to think about.

In his defence he admited Catley beat him and the ringside interview.

As for Joe Calzaghe I have always felt he should have given Robert Reid an immedeate rematch.

Eric the Viking wrote: Silly argument - "because he won ina 3-round amateur contest 15 years ago, there's no need for him to fight." Well, my older sister once beat me at armwrestling when we were kids...

Eric, she'd still beat you even now, live with it

Quiz question #2 is also related to Joe's claim that he has no remaining challenges at 168 lbs:

Of the 3 consensus major titles (WBA, WBC, IBF), which has Joe held at 168?

Quiz question #3:

Which men who were generally regarded (i.e. not according to any particular sanctioning body) as being in the top 5 @168 at the time of the fight has Joe beaten?

Eric the Viking wrote:Quiz question #2 is also related to Joe's claim that he has no remaining challenges at 168 lbs:

Of the 3 consensus major titles (WBA, WBC, IBF), which has Joe held at 168?

be fair : pussie cheat boy in germany has held those for most the time.
he dont want to fight jc unless its in his back yard, with his ref that wont let him get hit, so he can run all night and his opponent can get told off breathing too heavily let alone punching...ok extreme but you get my point. Jc wont fly cos he has pathological hatred of of being airborne (could have fooled me agianst mitchell)
and before you start Im no huge calzaghe fan but I think he is world class and its not all JC's fault but he could have done more, which is one of the reasons why he has gone up to light heavy now.

J wrote:

Eric the Viking wrote:Quiz question #2 is also related to Joe's claim that he has no remaining challenges at 168 lbs:

Of the 3 consensus major titles (WBA, WBC, IBF), which has Joe held at 168?

be fair : pussie cheat boy in germany has held those for most the time.

No, Ottke held only the IBF strap until March of last year, when he beat Byron Mitchell to add the WBA title. If Calzaghe wanted a major title, he should've fought Mitchell (who gave Joe the scare of his life) before Ottke did, instead of feeding on Ottke's leftovers.

And the WBC strap has been in the hands of guys willing to fight for it for years now.

Like I said - all we hear is excuses.

really? I was under the elusion ottke held more than one version of the title for some time, tho ive never taken too much interest in him. Apologies for my false statment then best go find my dunces hat.

J wrote:really? I was under the elusion ottke held more than one version of the title for some time

Not entirely your fault - Fast allegedly is a master of illusions.

haha I dont listen to frank mate haha.
it is an alrming trend tho that JC would fight ottke cast off's (who usually got injured and re-scheduled with a marking time fight in the meantime.)
I just feel Joe coudl have done so much more with his talent maybe now he will .....but its hard to change your view after being fed the veits, tocker pudwills as dangerous credible world challengers, and then lisening to team Calzaghe talk about p4p. that irritates the frigg out of me. Sad thing is most people who only watch the big names believe the spin. Fight Johnson then tarver then we may be able to discuss another big fight that would possibly push hi up into the lower half of the p4p listings at present he doesnt make my top 25 let alone ten.
time for talking is over make the most of your talent Joe.

Eric the Viking wrote:

J wrote:

Eric the Viking wrote:Quiz question #2 is also related to Joe's claim that he has no remaining challenges at 168 lbs:

Of the 3 consensus major titles (WBA, WBC, IBF), which has Joe held at 168?

be fair : pussie cheat boy in germany has held those for most the time.

No, Ottke held only the IBF strap until March of last year, when he beat Byron Mitchell to add the WBA title. If Calzaghe wanted a major title, he should've fought Mitchell (who gave Joe the scare of his life) before Ottke did, instead of feeding on Ottke's leftovers.

And the WBC strap has been in the hands of guys willing to fight for it for years now.

Like I said - all we hear is excuses.

Have you got a Sven Ottke bumper sticker on your car then Eric?

MightyWarrior wrote:Have you got a Sven Ottke bumper sticker on your car then Eric?

No, he's a protected fraud, too. But he's accomplished more in his career than Joe has, or probably ever will.

Eric the Viking wrote:

MightyWarrior wrote:Have you got a Sven Ottke bumper sticker on your car then Eric?

No, he's a protected fraud, too. But he's accomplished more in his career than Joe has, or probably ever will.

So outpointing Tocker Pudwelll over 12 rounds is obviously a good result in your book then Eric?
Give me a 12 round chess match with Mitchell, where old Sven throws around 10 punches per round, than a two knockdown slug fest any day, right?

MightyWarrior wrote:

Eric the Viking wrote:

MightyWarrior wrote:Have you got a Sven Ottke bumper sticker on your car then Eric?

No, he's a protected fraud, too. But he's accomplished more in his career than Joe has, or probably ever will.

So outpointing Tocker Pudwelll over 12 rounds is obviously a good result in your book then Eric?

Oh, it ranks about the same as outpointing Miggie Jimenez and Dave Starie. ;)

No one has ever claimed Ottke is a big puncher - but his overall level of competition has been better. And while many of his fights are boring, until recently his wins were pretty convincing. His last one was pretty pathetic, but age is clearly catching up to him. I do believe Joe would beat him soundly right now, but Joe is supposedly in the prime of his career, whereas Ottke is in he twilight of his. Fact is, Ottke has faced and beaten (even if not by KO) significantly more top guys at 168 than Joe has.

I'm not saying Joe's not good - I just want him to prove it in the ring, rather than in front of the mic.

MightyWarriorPosted: 24 Mar 2004 16:29

Blue wrote:
Eubank, Brewer, Reid & Mitchell were the only legit top fighters he met and the last two should have gotten immediate returns.(A la Tarver-Jones.)

I don't think any of the names you came up with are better than the above four at super middle.

I only named Larsen in reference to your claim of “Do you really think he's ducking any of these guys?” But the names mentioned are certainly better than the other 11 so called title defenses.

Eubank was clearly on the slide as evidenced by his two losses to Collins (Who could never win the big international fight.)
Joe didn’t fight Brewer until after Brewer lost twice to Ottke and then got banged out by Echols.

The two tainted wins over Reid & Mitchell kinda dim his “brilliant” record.
11 of 14 defenses against stiffs (As U put It.) pale his “brilliant” record even more.
So Joe has not cleaned up the division and there are plenty of good matches left for him at 12 stone.

The argument that Calzaghe is running from the pack is just as strong.

Look i'm not Joes biggest admirer, but in my view the Mitchell stoppage was the correct decision.
The guy was still stunned from the first round. His legs were stiff as boards and if the ref hadn't stopped the fight when he did i believe it would have only lasted another few seconds. Better the stoppage comes a little too early than a little too late.
I agree about Reid though, he did more than enough to warrant a rematch.

Blue wrote: Tell me honestly, if the roles were reversed and it was Joe that received the second knockdown, Do U think the referee would have stopped the fight as quickly?

I think not. (He would have been tar and feathered by the fans.)

Mitchell trained for months, travels to England, knocks the Champ down, then gets back up from a knockdown and it’s all washed down the drain on a subjective & very quick decision.
I think that warrants a rematch too.

But let’s not get off the subject about Calzaghe’s exorbitant claims.

With the roles reversed, there is no doubt in my mind that the referee would have let the fight continue, which in my opinion would not have been the correct decision. We're just going to have to agree to disagree on whether or not the fight was stopped too early.
As for Joe claiming there are no challenges left for him at super middle, everyone knows that blatantly isn't the case.
I'd have liked him to do whatever it took to try and make a fight with Ottke, Beyer or Larson. To me it seems he could have done more.

The bottom line is, while Johnson may not be the best light-heavy in the world he's certainly a tougher task for Calzaghe than any of the other super middles would be.

This is very much a step in the right direction.

Kilburn wrote:The bottom line is, while Johnson may not be the best light-heavy in the world he's certainly a tougher task for Calzaghe than any of the other super middles would be.

This is very much a step in the right direction.

Agreed - and as I've stated, if he convincingly beats Johnson I'll give him some respect.

Blue wrote: Tell me honestly, if the roles were reversed and it was Joe that received the second knockdown, Do U think the referee would have stopped the fight as quickly?

I think not. (He would have been tar and feathered by the fans.)

Mitchell trained for months, travels to England, knocks the Champ down, then gets back up from a knockdown and it’s all washed down the drain on a subjective & very quick decision.
I think that warrants a rematch too.

But let’s not get off the subject about Calzaghe’s exorbitant claims.

Are you mad Mitchell was in dreamland