BoxRec

J-C wrote:

danconnollyeire wrote:AN extremely aggressive Haye beats Wlad. He has the speed and power most definitely. And the skill to land a shot. I though he'd do taht in their fight (after all the talk) but it turns out he hasn't got the mentality. Great fighters can change their style and adapt. If he thought less like himself and more like Tyson, he would've knocked Wlad out

Ironic you mention Tyson in that sentence as he's a great example of a fighter who couldn't adapt his style.

An extremely aggressive Haye get's knocked out vs Wlad in my opinion.

Could depend who landed first. I had it 50/50 beforehand because the way they were talking is that it was going to be aggressive and it would've probably been a case of who landed first and I think Haye's chins slightly better and they both have the power to do it. If he went all out Tyson style from the bell, used his speed and power to put ridiculous combo together as I'm sure he could do he could've KOd Wlad. Or Wlad could've step-back countered him with a solid right and goodnight

Instead it was like any boring Wlad fight

Is Wlad really a step back and counter guy? Like his brother, he's quite negative and fearful when a man is going at him. not sure Wlad has the confidence in his chin to try step back and counter, he just holds or runs.

I don't know who is more fragile, but Haye is ballsy and will get up and try flatten you even when hurt. Wlad just mentally falls apart and loses by KO, or in one sole case survives because the man he is facing, Peter, is morbidly obese and unskilled and thus cannot close the show.

I think people need to remember that if the Klitschkos had better competition maybe they'd be better boxers. I'm amazed that Wlad can keep motivating himself to take training seriously to get in shape and KO the likes of Mormeck. If the middleweight division in teh 80's was the equivalent of the Heavy's now (hard to imagine, i know) what sort of reputation would Hagler have?

If Wlad or Vit had gone through a few challenges or even defeats over the last few years maybe it would have improved them.

Something else, the size + athleticism of the brothers was unheard of in the 80's and before so it makes it hard compare eras. e.g Haye & Foreman were almost exactly the same height and weight when they fought for a world title for the first time so Wlad would have dwarfed Foreman the same way he did Haye. Not saying that means Foreman loses but i find it hard to imagine Foreman a fight giving away 3inches, 30lbs & foot & handspeed to a better athlete.

On the original question of why there is a lack of good Americans I wonder if the answer lies in the massively increased value of offensive lineman to college and professional American football teams. Since the '80s lineman have gone from being the lowest paid to the amongst the highest paid commodities in American sports. That means from the age of about 15 the best players are being heavily recruited by major colleges with the promise of a free top class education and a route into pro sports. That's likely a far more enticing proposition than the vague promises of the dodgy local bloke who's decided to fling a towel over his shoulder.

Boxing really is the worst sport in terms of coherent, strategic planning. Basically it relies entirely on folk randomly turning up at a gym to be trained by God knows who.

Shirow wrote:Something else, the size + athleticism of the brothers was unheard of in the 80's and before so it makes it hard compare eras. e.g Haye & Foreman were almost exactly the same height and weight when they fought for a world title for the first time so Wlad would have dwarfed Foreman the same way he did Haye.

But what you're forgetting is that Foreman was a 240lb behemoth melted down to 220lb, even denying himself water to make himself leaner and meaner. In that era, with the pace of fights often so intense, fighters came in peak physical condition - like athletes - not these fat or musclebound modern heavyweights with enormous added girth that seems to become a disadvantage in a brutal fight.

Foreman worked down to his 220 - Haye bulked up to his 210. Haye was a 190lb man - I have no doubt he could KO Wlad if he truly went at him, 190 or 210, but he hasn't worked 'down' to his weight, he's a manufactured 210 thus carrying extra bulk like all the others.

A 225lb Corrie Sanders, nearing 40, wrecked Wlad, and even at 225 he sported jiggling breasts and a protruding gut. I have tapes of him at 217 versus the likes of DuPlooy and he didn't look anywhere near peak condition even then. Does anyone honestly think all his flab made him a harder puncher? The better but uglier looking fighter wrecked the big muscley star fighter who looks amazing but can't take a shot.

loaded_gloves wrote:I have no doubt he could KO Wlad if he truly went at him, 190 or 210, but he hasn't worked 'down' to his weight, he's a manufactured 210.

I watched the first few rounds again the other day and I must have missed it the first time when we watched it in the sports cafe but Haye actually lands a big right hand in round 3 that stuns Wlad momentarily. Originally I thought it was just the one big shot in the 12th that he landed, but there it is in the third, a big clean right hand, and Wlad has to hold momentarily. That just makes it even more depressing that Haye didn't go for it, he saw that he could stun Wlad and he just sleptwalked to a decision loss like all the fat fucks he had criticised previously.

I'll have to rewatch that because I too missed it - thought he only landed in the 12th. But Haye's first thought all along in that fight seemed to be 'not to lose' - a type of thinking that would be utterly foreign and incomprehensible to Joe Frazier, Earnie Shavers, Larry Holmes, Muhammad Ali, Jerry Quarry, George Foreman et al. Even Floyd Patterson, with his vulnerability, was at all times poised to pounce and decapitate you with some blurring three or four punch attack of horror.

Haye's performance in that Klitschko fight, combined with his little toe alibi afterwards, is one of the all-time ignominious defeats in heavyweight boxing. I respect the men who went all-out versus Joe Louis and got bombed in one more than Haye, who went 12 and refused to give it his all.

loaded_gloves wrote:I'll have to rewatch that because I too missed it - thought he only landed in the 12th. But Haye's first thought all along in that fight seemed to be 'not to lose' - a type of thinking that would be utterly foreign and incomprehensible to Joe Frazier, Earnie Shavers, Larry Holmes, Muhammad Ali, Jerry Quarry, George Foreman et al. Even Floyd Patterson, with his vulnerability, was at all times poised to pounce and decapitate you with some blurring three or four punch attack of horror.

Haye's performance in that Klitschko fight, combined with his little toe alibi afterwards, is one of the all-time ignominious defeats in heavyweight boxing. I respect the men who went all-out versus Joe Louis and got bombed in one more than Haye, who went 12 and refused to give it his all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BD-2PUeJaUA

4:11.

By the way, HBO must have insisted on their own camera work for this one, thankfully, presumably knowing that the German broadcast would have such an inexplicably retarded standard of shooting. It did mean half the time the view on HBO was obscured by the German cameras that were roving maniacally in front of the fighters.

At times Haye also looked like he could go jab to jab with Wlad, when he was being positive.

danconnollyeire wrote:

J-C wrote:

danconnollyeire wrote:AN extremely aggressive Haye beats Wlad. He has the speed and power most definitely. And the skill to land a shot. I though he'd do taht in their fight (after all the talk) but it turns out he hasn't got the mentality. Great fighters can change their style and adapt. If he thought less like himself and more like Tyson, he would've knocked Wlad out

Ironic you mention Tyson in that sentence as he's a great example of a fighter who couldn't adapt his style.

An extremely aggressive Haye get's knocked out vs Wlad in my opinion.

Could depend who landed first. I had it 50/50 beforehand because the way they were talking is that it was going to be aggressive and it would've probably been a case of who landed first and I think Haye's chins slightly better and they both have the power to do it. If he went all out Tyson style from the bell, used his speed and power to put ridiculous combo together as I'm sure he could do he could've KOd Wlad. Or Wlad could've step-back countered him with a solid right and goodnight

Instead it was like any boring Wlad fight

Or most Haye fights.

Riddick Blowe wrote:

loaded_gloves wrote:I'll have to rewatch that because I too missed it - thought he only landed in the 12th. But Haye's first thought all along in that fight seemed to be 'not to lose' - a type of thinking that would be utterly foreign and incomprehensible to Joe Frazier, Earnie Shavers, Larry Holmes, Muhammad Ali, Jerry Quarry, George Foreman et al. Even Floyd Patterson, with his vulnerability, was at all times poised to pounce and decapitate you with some blurring three or four punch attack of horror.

Haye's performance in that Klitschko fight, combined with his little toe alibi afterwards, is one of the all-time ignominious defeats in heavyweight boxing. I respect the men who went all-out versus Joe Louis and got bombed in one more than Haye, who went 12 and refused to give it his all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BD-2PUeJaUA

4:11.

By the way, HBO must have insisted on their own camera work for this one, thankfully, presumably knowing that the German broadcast would have such an inexplicably retarded standard of shooting. It did mean half the time the view on HBO was obscured by the German cameras that were roving maniacally in front of the fighters.

God you're right, he did hurt him! Too bad he didn't realise - we could have been spared Wlad/Mormeck, Thompson, Wach, Pianeta....

funtime wrote:At times Haye also looked like he could go jab to jab with Wlad, when he was being positive.

His jab is underrated. When you are that skilled an athlete (best 3 in he world at what you do) and hold back because you're afraid of getting hit/hurting your toe, it's an abomination. It's like Brazil getting to the world cup final, playing zero upfront and costing to a 1-0 loss

What people are forgetting is that Wlad has an incredible jab, and it is difficult to get inside. Once Haye realised that, his whole camp went out of the window. People also don't see how good Wlad's footwork is. These are the subtleties that most fighters find when they step in the ring after months of 'oh, I will just get round the jab and deck him...easy'

Some on here are talking like Haye lost the fight and Wlad didn't win it. .

I think Wlad deserves a bit more respect than what he is being shown

Wlad 'won' that fight? Are you serious?

I admire Evander Holyfield's honesty, after the first Lewis/Holyfield bore.

"Neither of us deserved to win".

Nobody 'won' Klitschko/Ibragimov or Klitschko/Haye. Also, the only two men who posed a little threat and had some defensive nous and Wladimir was scared into being even more defensive and the result was brutal tedium.

You need a bit of Marciano/Walcott 1 to repair your eyes after watching Wladimir Klitschko.

loaded_gloves wrote:Wlad 'won' that fight? Are you serious?

I admire Evander Holyfield's honesty, after the first Lewis/Holyfield bore.

"Neither of us deserved to win".

Nobody 'won' Klitschko/Ibragimov or Klitschko/Haye. Also, the only two men who posed a little threat and had some defensive nous and Wladimir was scared into being even more defensive and the result was brutal tedium.

You need a bit of Marciano/Walcott 1 to repair your eyes after watching Wladimir Klitschko.

Yes, I mean full credit to Wlad he did 100% what he needed. But Sanders proved that no matter how good his footwork technically is, if you streamroll in and go for broke you can catch him backing off

danconnollyeire wrote:

loaded_gloves wrote:Wlad 'won' that fight? Are you serious?

I admire Evander Holyfield's honesty, after the first Lewis/Holyfield bore.

"Neither of us deserved to win".

Nobody 'won' Klitschko/Ibragimov or Klitschko/Haye. Also, the only two men who posed a little threat and had some defensive nous and Wladimir was scared into being even more defensive and the result was brutal tedium.

You need a bit of Marciano/Walcott 1 to repair your eyes after watching Wladimir Klitschko.

Yes, I mean full credit to Wlad he did 100% what he needed. But Sanders proved that no matter how good his footwork technically is, if you streamroll in and go for broke you can catch him backing off

Yes, to a point. But back then Wlad was a lot more attacking. It was only when Manny (God rest his soul) got his hands on him and changed him to a more defensive fighter that he became a dominating force.

loaded_gloves wrote:Wlad 'won' that fight? Are you serious?

I admire Evander Holyfield's honesty, after the first Lewis/Holyfield bore.

"Neither of us deserved to win".

Nobody 'won' Klitschko/Ibragimov or Klitschko/Haye. Also, the only two men who posed a little threat and had some defensive nous and Wladimir was scared into being even more defensive and the result was brutal tedium.

You need a bit of Marciano/Walcott 1 to repair your eyes after watching Wladimir Klitschko.

If he dominates a fight then he wins it doesn't he? Because nobody can do anything to stop his march towards a victory. It isn't his job to make it more exciting, it is his job to win.

And it is a job he will continue to do until he retires

I think Vitali would have the jab and style to frustrate even a prime Tyson. Tyson struggled with anyone with a decent jab and movement and Vitali also has a proven great chin.

You cant blame the Klitchenkos for the fact that the talent in the division is rather thin at the moment. They have more than proved themselves against the best there is around today and noone can expect more from them than that.

fatcity69 wrote:I think Vitali would have the jab and style to frustrate even a prime Tyson. Tyson struggled with anyone with a decent jab and movement and Vitali also has a proven great chin.

Vitali would be too slow and predictable for Mike Tyson. I'm no Tyson freak, but Vitali couldn't even down 40 year old, grossly overweight editions of Corrie Sanders and Shannon Briggs. These men were not even durable in their 90s primes... Even if he lands, he's not going to make a dent on Mike Tyson.

Also, men as slick and fast as Tony Tucker, Tony Tubbs and Buster Douglas had all they could handle with Tyson's mix of speed & power. Vitali was absolutely exhausted after just six rounds at a 'pace' with an overweight, near 40 year old Lennox Lewis. Really, a 20 year old Mike Tyson would steamroll a man with Vitali's lack of speed, stamina and true KO power.

loaded_gloves wrote:

fatcity69 wrote:I think Vitali would have the jab and style to frustrate even a prime Tyson. Tyson struggled with anyone with a decent jab and movement and Vitali also has a proven great chin.

Vitali would be too slow and predictable for Mike Tyson. I'm no Tyson freak, but Vitali couldn't even down 40 year old, grossly overweight editions of Corrie Sanders and Shannon Briggs. These men were not even durable in their 90s primes... Even if he lands, he's not going to make a dent on Mike Tyson.

Also, men as slick and fast as Tony Tucker, Tony Tubbs and Buster Douglas had all they could handle with Tyson's mix of speed & power. Vitali was absolutely exhausted after just six rounds at a 'pace' with an overweight, near 40 year old Lennox Lewis. Really, a 20 year old Mike Tyson would steamroll a man with Vitali's lack of speed, stamina and true KO power.

And I am sure Tucker, Tubbs and Buster Douglas beat Vitali as well.........................

loaded_gloves wrote:

fatcity69 wrote:I think Vitali would have the jab and style to frustrate even a prime Tyson. Tyson struggled with anyone with a decent jab and movement and Vitali also has a proven great chin.

Vitali would be too slow and predictable for Mike Tyson. I'm no Tyson freak, but Vitali couldn't even down 40 year old, grossly overweight editions of Corrie Sanders and Shannon Briggs. These men were not even durable in their 90s primes... Even if he lands, he's not going to make a dent on Mike Tyson.

Also, men as slick and fast as Tony Tucker, Tony Tubbs and Buster Douglas had all they could handle with Tyson's mix of speed & power. Vitali was absolutely exhausted after just six rounds at a 'pace' with an overweight, near 40 year old Lennox Lewis. Really, a 20 year old Mike Tyson would steamroll a man with Vitali's lack of speed, stamina and true KO power.

Just to be arguemental, Vitali was nigh on 40 himself when he faced Briggs and Sanders was very determined to upset the boxing world by beating both brothers. He may not have knocked down Tyson but could have stopped him or won on points. I think Tyson could've won on points. It's diffcult to say anyone who KOs 41 out of 45 doesn't have power

It's very easy to dismiss Vitali's power when you take the recognisable names and compare his performance to his peers.

Obed Sullivan - went 10 rounds and he couldn't knock Sullivan down or even stagger him. Six months later David Tua, a puncher, splatters Sullivan in less than a minute, putting him down for the full count. Tua - puncher. Vitali - not puncher.

Chris Byrd - 10 rounds and he couldn't knock Byrd down or even stagger him. Next fight Wladimir, who certainly packs a wallop, downs Byrd a couple of times. Prior to Vitali, Ike Ibeabuchi had Byrd down three times in 5 rounds. Ibeabuchi and Wlad can hit, Vitali no.

Vaughn Bean - went 11 rds, was gifted a stoppage from the German referee, never put Bean down or staggered him in any way. Evander Holyfield had Bean down hard with an uppercut in the 10th round of their fight, and Bean barely survived the count. Holyfield's can hit - he downed iron men - Dokes, Mercer, Tyson, Bowe. Vitali - more an arm puncher.

Lennox Lewis - went 6 rounds against an old, out of shape Lewis. Hit Lewis square on the chops with his best 'power' punches and couldn't budge him. McCall and Rahman - two hitters - KOd Lewis with their best shots.

Corrie Sanders - where to begin here? Sanders was 39, grossly overweight, semi-retired and Vitali couldn't so much as put him on the floor. Hasim Rahman - a hitter - had Sanders down. Nate Tubbs laid him clean out with a big right hand. Sanders was even down against Arthur Weathers!

Shannon Briggs - Frans Botha had a prime Briggs reeling around the ring, Lewis had him down five times, Darroll Wilson put him on his back with a big left hook, Jameel McCline downed him, a 50 year old Foreman hurt him. Briggs was grossly overweight, immobile and 40 and Vitali couldn't even knock him on the floor.

Dereck Chisora 12 no problems with Vitali. One left hook from David Haye and it's all over. Haye puncher. Vitali no puncher.

Vitali Klitschko is not a puncher. He's not cracking the great or good chins in heavyweight history, no matter how many Albert Sosnowskis, Herbie Hides or Tomasz Adameks he knocks out.

loaded_gloves wrote:It's very easy to dismiss Vitali's power when you take the recognisable names and compare his performance to his peers.

Obed Sullivan - went 10 rounds and he couldn't knock Sullivan down or even stagger him. Six months later David Tua, a puncher, splatters Sullivan in less than a minute, putting him down for the full count. Tua - puncher. Vitali - not puncher.

Chris Byrd - 10 rounds and he couldn't knock Byrd down or even stagger him. Next fight Wladimir, who certainly packs a wallop, downs Byrd a couple of times. Prior to Vitali, Ike Ibeabuchi had Byrd down three times in 5 rounds. Ibeabuchi and Wlad can hit, Vitali no.

Vaughn Bean - went 11 rds, was gifted a stoppage from the German referee, never put Bean down or staggered him in any way. Evander Holyfield had Bean down hard with an uppercut in the 10th round of their fight, and Bean barely survived the count. Holyfield's can hit - he downed iron men - Dokes, Mercer, Tyson, Bowe. Vitali - more an arm puncher.

Lennox Lewis - went 6 rounds against an old, out of shape Lewis. Hit Lewis square on the chops with his best 'power' punches and couldn't budge him. McCall and Rahman - two hitters - KOd Lewis with their best shots.

Corrie Sanders - where to begin here? Sanders was 39, grossly overweight, semi-retired and Vitali couldn't so much as put him on the floor. Hasim Rahman - a hitter - had Sanders down. Nate Tubbs laid him clean out with a big right hand. Sanders was even down against Arthur Weathers!

Shannon Briggs - Frans Botha had a prime Briggs reeling around the ring, Lewis had him down five times, Darroll Wilson put him on his back with a big left hook, Jameel McCline downed him, a 50 year old Foreman hurt him. Briggs was grossly overweight, immobile and 40 and Vitali couldn't even knock him on the floor.

Dereck Chisora 12 no problems with Vitali. One left hook from David Haye and it's all over. Haye puncher. Vitali no puncher.

Vitali Klitschko is not a puncher. He's not cracking the great or good chins in heavyweight history, no matter how many Albert Sosnowskis, Herbie Hides or Tomasz Adameks he knocks out.

I agree. He's not a one-puncher KO man. Just a very, very strong man who's constant punishment will eventually cause a stoppage/permanant damage

danconnollyeire wrote:

loaded_gloves wrote:It's very easy to dismiss Vitali's power when you take the recognisable names and compare his performance to his peers.

Obed Sullivan - went 10 rounds and he couldn't knock Sullivan down or even stagger him. Six months later David Tua, a puncher, splatters Sullivan in less than a minute, putting him down for the full count. Tua - puncher. Vitali - not puncher.

Chris Byrd - 10 rounds and he couldn't knock Byrd down or even stagger him. Next fight Wladimir, who certainly packs a wallop, downs Byrd a couple of times. Prior to Vitali, Ike Ibeabuchi had Byrd down three times in 5 rounds. Ibeabuchi and Wlad can hit, Vitali no.

Vaughn Bean - went 11 rds, was gifted a stoppage from the German referee, never put Bean down or staggered him in any way. Evander Holyfield had Bean down hard with an uppercut in the 10th round of their fight, and Bean barely survived the count. Holyfield's can hit - he downed iron men - Dokes, Mercer, Tyson, Bowe. Vitali - more an arm puncher.

Lennox Lewis - went 6 rounds against an old, out of shape Lewis. Hit Lewis square on the chops with his best 'power' punches and couldn't budge him. McCall and Rahman - two hitters - KOd Lewis with their best shots.

Corrie Sanders - where to begin here? Sanders was 39, grossly overweight, semi-retired and Vitali couldn't so much as put him on the floor. Hasim Rahman - a hitter - had Sanders down. Nate Tubbs laid him clean out with a big right hand. Sanders was even down against Arthur Weathers!

Shannon Briggs - Frans Botha had a prime Briggs reeling around the ring, Lewis had him down five times, Darroll Wilson put him on his back with a big left hook, Jameel McCline downed him, a 50 year old Foreman hurt him. Briggs was grossly overweight, immobile and 40 and Vitali couldn't even knock him on the floor.

Dereck Chisora 12 no problems with Vitali. One left hook from David Haye and it's all over. Haye puncher. Vitali no puncher.

Vitali Klitschko is not a puncher. He's not cracking the great or good chins in heavyweight history, no matter how many Albert Sosnowskis, Herbie Hides or Tomasz Adameks he knocks out.

I agree. He's not a one-puncher KO man. Just a very, very strong man who's constant punishment will eventually cause a stoppage/permanant damage

Yes, ask Briggs if he would rather have been KO'd in 1 round or suffered the broken face he had to endure.

Those fight mentioned, he barely lost a round in them...yet LG is painting him as some sort of a bum....