BoxRec

Big Cat fun filled Fact #209

For his 14th professional fight, 12.August 1952,
Cleveland Williams fought
Candy McDaniels of Jacksonville Florida.
ring record from 1947-1952,9-1-1,
Candy McDaniels is probably best known to boxing fans for doing a
five round exhibition
with Joe Louis in Orlando Florida 8.February.1950.
here is the fun filled fact part.

-Candy McDaniels was the maternal uncle of NBA Star
Darryl Dawkins aka Chocolate Thunder.
(who used to come over to the Dawkin's household in Orlando when they were younger and try and teach them how to box.
(source CHOCOLATE THUNDER the autobiography of Darryl Dawkins)

Keene Simmons,perhaps better known as a sparring partner
for Rocky Marciano.
It was around this time that Lou Viscusi and the fans in Tampa
had visions of Cleve Williams already fighting Rocky Marciano for the heavyweight championship of the world.

here is a newspaper article from 22.June.1954 about the upcoming
Satterfield vs. Williams bout,and it briefly mentions the fight with
Sylvester Jones the previous September.
It states that Jones had Williams down on the canvas
four times in the first three rounds,but Williams came back strong in the fourth,before the fight was ended suddenly after that round.
most likley it was scheduled for 6 rounds as were
the other heavyweight bouts on the undercard of Marciano vs La Starza II.

http://www.news.google.com/newspapers?i ... ,974546&dq


It sounds to me that it was cut short,because they didnt want a fight in progress when the television closed-circuit signal came on live to the various theaters across the USA.
The mystery seems to be however is why was Cleveland Williams
up in NYC and on the preliminary of a heavyweight championship fight?
Maybe he was sent up there from Tampa as a sparring partner for
Rocky Marciano or another heavyweight on the card?
(LaStarza is listed at 6 ft tall,as it would seem silly for LaStarza that have a 6 ft 3 inch sparring partner to prepare for someone who was 5 ft 10"
and fought out of a crouched.
there were several other heavyweight fights on the undercard,
maybe they were Marciano's sparring partners vs La Starza's sparring partners?

You would figure if Williams had even been in the ring with Marciano just sparring,
someone, particularly Williams would have mentioned it somewhere,
and maybe how the got "the Best"of the champ one usually hears
to at least drum up some interest in a actual bout.

There is a newspaper article from 21.January 1954
from Miami Florida reporting on the results of the
Charlie Norkus vs Danny Nardico fight.
Norkus had knocked out Nardico in round nine.
Shortly afterwards a very disappointed Lou Viscusi essentially challenged Charlie Norkus to fight Cleveland Williams next
in a nationally televised fight,and was going to contact Jim Norris and the IBF
to have it arranged.It didnt happen of course.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=fF ... ,392630&dq

I wonder if Charlie Norkus jr has anything from his scrapebooks about Cleveland Williams he can share?

Il Duce wrote: I do know that Billy Gore (Manager) also handled Roy 'Cut-N-Shoot' Harris at the same time.

Roy was the 'right color' for 1958..........

Roy Harris was ranked #1 at the time, but Billy Gore would never allow Cleveland to spar with
Roy, in fear of as he said,,,,,

'Cleveland might decapitate Roy with his left hook. Then I'd be the first Manager with a
'Headless Heavyweight'.

Billy Gore also handled 'The Animal',,,,,,,,,,Dave 'Ziggy' Zyglewicz.....

im not sure if you meant never or rarely.
it does appear that Roy Harris did spar with Cleveland Williams
at least a few times.
this recent article quotes Roy Harris as saying,

"My toughest opponent and most dangerous was when I sparred with
Cleveland Williams".

http://www.doghouseboxing.com/Ken/Hissner030911.htm

and here is a newspaper article from 4.December.1959
when Roy Harris was training to fight Paul Andrews.


http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=rL ... 1278723&dq

Big Cat Fun Filled Fact # 91

Wore a size 13 glove.

Big Cat fun filled Fact # 59

At age 13 ,began working at the Pulpwood Mill at Griffin Georgia

Ring action photo of Cleveland Wiliams vs. Ben Black(8.Feb.1966)


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cleveland-Willi ... 41724395fe



http://books.google.com/books?id=brkDAA ... pg=PA53&dq

The newspaper article you quoted gives Mel Turnbow's ring record
11-4-0 going into the fight with Cleveland Williams March 1966,
however Boxrec lists Turnbow's ring record as 6-4-0
going into it.What happened to the other 5 fights of Turnbow's?

Why is it I wonder the discrepancy in Mel Turnbow's ring record here at boxrec?
There is a newspaper article from December.7. 1970
that annouces Mel Turnbow is going to fight George Foreman,
and it lists Turnbow's record as 15-10.
BTW George Chuvalo was once asked a few years ago who were the hardest punchers he had ever faced in the ring,and Chuvalo had said,
Mike DeJohn,George Foreman and Mel Turnbow.
Sounds like Turnbow may be yet another heavyweight boxing enigma.

scroll up this page to see a rare action photo of
Cleve Williams vs Mel Turnbow.(22 March.1966)


http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=5_ ... 5791178&dq

As far as what little I have read so far on Mel Turnbow ,the words
"Flat-footed" and even "inept' come up.
he must have had some hypnotic quality in sparring sessions were sometimes his opponent falls asleep almost,then POW!
From the photos of Turnbow,he sort of reminds me of a past it
Joe Louis circa 1952,except Turnbow was a lot younger of course.
Also as him saying that he was giving up being a heavyweight contender
while still boxing.
I think that speaks volumes about his mental train of thought as a fighter.,because everyone knows any fighter even a club
fighter,who some day may be given the opppertunity regardless to fight
a title match,is just one punch away from being the new heavyweight champion of the world.
Which is probably an exaggeration of his style and boxing ability.
So who were the five(?) fighters in the five
boxing bouts that boxrec doesn't count?

Williams vs Turnbow on site Poster.

http://www.josportsinc.com/catalog/view.php?id=10765

A Mel Turbow bonus link...
scroll down page at link to see rare ring action photo of
Joe Frazier vs Mel Turbow(1966)


http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/board/t ... s-111.html

this photo is undated but by looking at his hair style,my guess its from around early 1966.

http://www.angelfire.com/games4/cubedru ... iams09.jpg

"Moore gave Williams trouble in the first four rounds
but Williams rallied to take the match with a barrage
of left-right combinations".

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=cG ... 3559717&dq

"Williams finished with strength but little zip
in his cominations to take the decision".

Il Duce wrote:
Mel Turnbow was on a National Televsion bout in one of his fights.........., but I can't remember which one.

Buster Mathis vs Mel Turbow April.30.1968(TKO7) is on one of the Buster Mathis career DVD'S.It may have been from television,
However its possible it may have also been filmed by Jimmy Jacobs at ringside
as he was hired by Peers Management to document all of Mathis's fights.

Brutu wrote:Hey Mr.Norkus,I wanted to ask if you had anything concerning
Cleveland"Big Cat" Williams in your scrapebooks that you would possibly share here.(see Big Cat..Fun Filled Facts thread at this forum).
I read where manager Lou Viscusi wanted your father to fight
Cleve Williams on National Television after your father had knocked out
Lou Viscus'si other fighter,Danny Nardico.Was wondering how close that fight may have came
to actually happening.

When 1954 came around, my father's two victories over Danny Nardico placed him into the top ten of heavies.Danny was suppose to get a shot at Marciano if he came up big against my father. Weill used my father as a feeler out for his boy, Rocky. The insiders of the heavies knew this. That's one way to get to Marciano was to fight and beat my father.
Not because my father was the gatekeeper per se, but Weill picked and choosed his opponents carefully. When my father defeated Nardico, I'm sure Williams camp might of cried "me too,me too". There was always a understanding from my father's camp headed by Ghee Laico, that Weill & Rocky will reward my father with a crack at the title if he played ball by going in against future title prospects. It all started back in Providence when my father was suppose fight LaStarza, but LaStarza s cut up in his previous fight and didnt heal in time, so my father fought Tommy Harrison instead. Some say LaStarza might have beat Rocky a few months later.



After Nardico, my father wanted Marciano himself. However in the scheme of things, Rocky had bigger fish to fry with bigger pay days. My father couldnt guarantee the $100,000 needed at the time. So to keep busy, he fought Jackson and lost on cuts in the 5th.Brion was yelling for his shot and Weill set up Norkus vs Brion II. My father stole away the fight in the 10th Rd. Then came Powell in SF. Suey Welch had pull with the Eastern boys and said Powell can draw the $100,000+ for Marciano. But Marciano wasnt too sure on Powell and sent my father in to see. Marciano checked it out himself.
After my father defeated Powell-everyone wanted a shot. I dont see Cleveland Williams name come up alot but it did later on about 1957. After Powell,my father proposed a 3-way fight competition Cockell-Norkus-Valdes with winner going to Marciano. Weill thought about it but stayed on the Ezzard Charles thing he had planned all along.

When 1954 ended, my father met with Weill and said "what gives"- I had a great year, and helped you guys all along ? (Remember-my father was to fight Rocky in 1950 before he got the title in Providence, but my father hurt his arm in training and the Rocky fought Buonvino instead, the fight was rescheduled 2 months later, but Rocky did a 30 day suspension for fighting his brother(under another name in an amatuer contest up in Maine the year prior). and that fight was cancelled.). Weill said they will eventually meet back then but no guarantee.
Weill in Jan. 1955 in a handshake said "defeat Ezz Charles and you and Rocky will meet." Rocky was on hand having punished Charles twice previously, but my father couldnt beat out Charles, and it was a up hill battle again.
Later on,Patterson then used my father a bit, and my father could fight Patterson for the title if he beat Pastrano or Moore. Going the distance wasnt enough.
But I can tell you that betwen 1954 and 1959, every heavy in the top ten try to connive a shot at the Champ in one way or another. But the entrance fee was too high for many, or if you were too good, you had to beat a spoiler, a roll my father was some what content in filling looking back in hind sight, because the Champ had you working on TV and that wasnt too bad either.

To answer your question though, nothing between Norkus and Williams were in the works, just newspaper fodder.Viscusi knew that Weill sent my father in vs. Nardico and figured that his boy Williams might see his way through to Marciano that way.
Big Cat started around 1951 I believe and my father was moving along fast ahead of him at that time.
Also, Big Cat Williams, though fighting 10 Rds by 1953, my father's people probably would consider a Williams fight a step back. If my father didnt fight him somewhere along 1954 schedule for whatever reason, there was no way he was going to fight Williams in early 1955.My father could only lose ground there. My father fought no one but Charles in 1955 and he didnt want to risk losing to anyone after the Weill handshake. All he did was train and wait his turn on Ezzard Charles. Any heavy would have done the same if told he was next up pending.

The situation would turn around 180 degrees by 1956. Williams could only lose ground if he fought my father and they probably avoided each other unless told to fight by Brenner and Norris.

Brutu wrote:There is a newspaper article from 21.January 1954
from Miami Florida reporting on the results of the
Charlie Norkus vs Danny Nardico fight.
Norkus had knocked out Nardico in round nine.
Shortly afterwards a very disappointed Lou Viscusi essentially challenged Charlie Norkus to fight Cleveland Williams next
in a nationally televised fight,and was going to contact Jim Norris and the IBF
to have it arranged.It didnt happen of course.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=fF ... ,392630&dq

Thanks for the info Mr. Norkus.
Im not sure if you had read this posting and link earlier in this thread,
so im bumping it up.

Brutu wrote:

Brutu wrote:There is a newspaper article from 21.January 1954
from Miami Florida reporting on the results of the
Charlie Norkus vs Danny Nardico fight.
Norkus had knocked out Nardico in round nine.
Shortly afterwards a very disappointed Lou Viscusi essentially challenged Charlie Norkus to fight Cleveland Williams next
in a nationally televised fight,and was going to contact Jim Norris and the IBF
to have it arranged.It didnt happen of course.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=fF ... ,392630&dq

Thanks for the info Mr. Norkus.
Im not sure if you had read this posting and link earlier in this thread,
so im bumping it up.

Thank You for the link and post. I did scan over the thread and must of missed it.
The newspapers I have here are NY articles with just one mentioning "Big Cat Williams" as a potential opponent. I want to point out a few things.
Your linked article is from a Miami newspaper. I can tell you that Nardico carried all the weight with the press going into that first fight, and being the hometown hero (Tampa is a few short miles), was getting the needed word for his proposed fight with Marciano. You can tell by the language of the article that Viscusi had it downplayed a bit hoping it wouldnt hurt his career much. Basically, Marciano was through with a Nardico title shot after that fight. Both camps knew, so Viscusi figured he might as well push for Williams and Norkus. ** The first Norkus vs Nardico was not televised. It was however recorded on film with no sound professionally.
When the press saw the fight from the Auditorium, right after, they were on the phones to report the blood-thirsty battle. The article was right stating it was the greatest Aud. battle up to that point, even though the hometown boy lost. Hence, my fathers ring for spoiler.Nobody saw the fight on tape for a couple of months after. Thats why
Williams was brought into the article by Viscusi. But the written word and still pix were good enough for the rematch making.

When Norris and Dundee talked on the phone, there was only one conclusion they could come to, a instant rematch on TV. The press was clamouring for it, the 2 month build-up for the rematch was a promoters heaven and the IBC hung their hats on fights like that.The two camps approached the Florida Boxing Comm and asked if a 3 knockdown rule can be issued for this fight. (Apparently there was none in Florida). The article was again right in stating that both sides didnt want to go through the carnage of the first fight. The Florida Comm denied the request.

The first time the Miami Beach Aud sold out was for the Norkus-Nardico rematch AND it was carried on TV. Unfortunately, the fight didnt carry the verocity of the first, but showed my fathers domination of the "never should have moved up in wt." Nardico. This fight was strictly for money it could generate from the paid crowd and TV revenue and had no bearing on the rankings. No doubt a third fight was in order if Nardico won. These two fights solidified,in Marciano's eyes, that my father was his lead man in feeling out others.
All in all, it comes down to dollars and cents, and where the most money can be generated from.
I think you guys already know, being around the sport as long as you have, take caution in what you read in newspapers. Take note of where the paper is from and where the fighters are from. All mgrs. had big pockets for the press and if a writer was showed some green, he can soften a loss, or make a 3-34 boxer look like a contender.
Also, like Cat Williams here, throw his name around and hopefully the IBC or somebody will take notice.
Cat Williams was never a player for Marciano at that particular time. Later on he was a major player for heavy title. (late fifties on).

Brutu wrote:For some reason this always struck me as a bizarre photo with the expressions on everyones faces here considering.
from JET magazine December.01.1966

http://www.books.google.com/books?id=kb ... pg=PA32&dq

Those facial expressions are strange to say the least especially considering from Jet magazine. The officer dude looks like he wants to shoot him again, Willams just sitting there with big smile on his face in 1960s

Looks like Williams is sayin...."don't make me laugh with that "bad ass" look of yours officer, You shot me, and trust me, I can still kick your ass in my sleep".

Following the Sonny Moore bout was Cleveland Williams vs Tod Herring
June.18.1966 Sam Houston Coliseum Houston Texas.
It was on the closed-circuit preliminary to Ernie Terrell vs Doug Jones main event.
Williams record going into the fight:64-5-1
Herring 26-5-0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXNxTq9K2EM

BTW
Does anyone here believe that if Mike Tyson was as naturally polite and courteous to his opponents as Cleve Williams seems to have been,
would Mike Tyson have had the appeal to the masses who were following him had back in the 1980's and 1990's?

Nope....Mikes attitude got a lot of people interested.

Now here's where we need some of the experts to chime in as to just how "washed up" Willams was by this time. In this fight, it does look like he may be doing the laundry....or taking the trash out. But he don't look like he's down and out to me.