Roy Jones' Legacy

[Brut]

Jones' legacy has to include everything, we can't go simply on what he did in the 90's and say the rest doesn't count; with that said, I believe Jones would not be nowhere near the Top 5, at best he may break the Top 40 or so but people tend to put too much stock into him because he got a HW strap.

Considering that RJJ took the least of the HW Champs to face and take the strap from wasn't as great as a feat that most make it out to be.

Defensively RJJ was too flawed, he got away with most of the stuff he pulled simply because he was fast with his reflexes.

[IKSRTFO]

People can say what they want but dominating a prime undefeated James Toney is incredible. It's forgotton how good Toney was at the point being Jones took some confidence from Toney in that fight and he wasn't as dominant after. And prime or not, Jones beat Hopkins more decisively than Taylor and Calaghie and many like to rate Calzaghe above Jones.

[jezzamundo]

To place RJJ in the top 5 of all-time shows a huge over-estimation of what he accomplished in his career as well as a lack of appreciation of what other great fighters have achieved.

Also, to say that he didn't drop a round in 10 years is false. Fighting a pre-prime Hopkins in 1993, he won by a margin of 8 rounds to 4 on all the judges scorecards - a clear win but a competitive fight by anyone's standards. He beat Toney impressively although Toney was off his best, struggling to make weight and still won 1-3 rounds in their 1994 encounter.

Some people forget that in Jones's first professional loss, despite being on the verge of stopping Montell Griffin, Jones had been outworked and outlanded over the first eight rounds, all three judges had it close and one had Griffin ahead. Of course Jones avenged this 'defeat' emphatically in the rematch. This was in 1997.

Judges also had Eric Harding winning 2-4 of the 10 rounds he fought against Jones in 2000.

All this said, dropping rounds isn't what makes Jones ineligible for the all-time top 20 p4p - it's his lack of wins over truly great opponents. In terms of resume, Manny Pacquiao is well ahead of RJJ.

[Massive Bereavement]

How many dangerous Russian cruiserweights with high KO ratios did Roy fight in his prime?

You're an idiot.


I was gonna write a long reply.... but the above seemed more appropriate as you clearly don't follow the sport.

[BAD INTENTIONS]

Wow, Jones compared to Khan and Calzaghe.

I don't understand why this guy doesn't get the respect he deserves. In his prime, he was virtually unbeatable. That in itself is enough to demand reverence. Only haters point to fighters in his era as fighters who would have beaten him. Most analyst start calling names like Langford, Charles, and Foster when describing challenges to a prime Jones Jr.

Also, let's not act like fighters were lining up to fight Roy. Most fighters pay lip service about challenging the best, but then put impossible demands in the way and later claim they were ducked. It's similar to Floyd challenging Cotto and Hatton when he was at 140. Miguel and Ricky didn't want the fight so it goes down as Floyd ducking them.

Don't start a race discussion, but it seems like the worst thing you can be in sports is a cocky/arrogant/flashy black fighter ... no one wonder Jack Johnson is forgotten.

[zorndeslammes]

Also, let's not act like fighters were lining up to fight Roy. Most fighters pay lip service about challenging the best, but then put impossible demands in the way and later claim they were ducked. It's similar to Floyd challenging Cotto and Hatton when he was at 140. Miguel and Ricky didn't want the fight so it goes down as Floyd ducking them.

Nobody talks about how Floyd ducked Cotto and Hatton anymore. You know why? Because he fought them. He fought Hatton in his prime and took his 0, and fought Cotto close enough to his prime that no one is seriously complaining about the fight being "late". If Roy had gone out and fought Hopkins in 2003 or 2004 and beat him handily, the whole narrative changes. He didn't, it doesn't, that's that.

[diddy]

...smoke...mirrors...juice...glass...chin...aviophobia...

ridiculously....stupid....european....blinders

[diddy]

Sugar Ray Robinson was awesome, but I obviously never saw him live. People love to talk about these old athletes like they are untouchable. You are talking different breed of athlete from then to today. Different genetics, different training methods, different everything. What the hell do you think LeBron James and Michael Jordan would've done in basketball 60 yrs ago? You think they were dominant in this era, in that era it would've been a complete joke. In the 40's-50's no one ever saw an athlete like Roy Jones Jr.

[IKSRTFO]

You can only judge an athlete by what was available to him in his time.

Also Boxers of the 30's-70's get rated so highly isn't cause they're untouchable, it's cause their careers were matched much tougher. Where as a lot of guys today have too much power in picking and choosing their opponents.

If Sugar Ray Robinson was born in 1988 and had the same genetic make-up, then him being able to access technology, having proper nutrition guidance and exercise science then we'd all see how ridiculous of a person he was when it came to Boxing.

Though peak-for-peak, I rate Kid Gavilan the best, but, that's another discussion.

Thinking in absolute terms is unfair, every thing is relative.

We're talking about fighters who normally fought 100+ fights 15 rounders without the knowledge of today's nutrition plus the lack of PEDs and rest time without being burned out. Can you honestly see Miguel Cotto going 15 rounds with same day weigh in even in the 80s? Can you honestly see Floyd fighting 80+ fights back to back without a blemish on his record?

[diddy]

You can only judge an athlete by what was available to him in his time.

Also Boxers of the 30's-70's get rated so highly isn't cause they're untouchable, it's cause their careers were matched much tougher. Where as a lot of guys today have too much power in picking and choosing their opponents.

If Sugar Ray Robinson was born in 1988 and had the same genetic make-up, then him being able to access technology, having proper nutrition guidance and exercise science then we'd all see how ridiculous of a person he was when it came to Boxing.

Though peak-for-peak, I rate Kid Gavilan the best, but, that's another discussion.

Thinking in absolute terms is unfair, every thing is relative.

We're talking about fighters who normally fought 100+ fights 15 rounders without the knowledge of today's nutrition plus the lack of PEDs and rest time without being burned out. Can you honestly see Miguel Cotto going 15 rounds with same day weigh in even in the 80s? Can you honestly see Floyd fighting 80+ fights back to back without a blemish on his record?

You can skew the argument in any way you choose to, but you are ignoring this comment, and fact - In the 40's-50's no one ever saw an athlete like Roy Jones Jr. You want to transport those old school fighters from then to today, what if I transported the physical specimen of Jones into the 50's? He was just an absurd athlete that I dont think was dictated by era, but just natural born gifts.

[palooka]

Jones in his prime was extraordinary after his prime and move to heavyweight he was ordinary and fragile. In the 90's he was unbelievable.

[palooka]

[quote="BarryWashington"]Diddy, you fail to grasp the concept of relativity. RJJ would not be as athletically great had he been born in 1930, so to say we're just transport these guys from their era to another is stupid.

But, regardless I think the greats of the past could still compete and excel in generations after them. What you and other fans fail to realize is how mental this sport is.[/quote]

No one I speak to realizes how mental this forum is.

[gilgamesh]

To me he's a very, very, very natural talented fighter and that took him a hell of a long way. He was a force at Middleweight, Super Middleweight and Light Heavyweight for years either easily outspeeding guys for 12 rounds or just beating the hell out of them with blindingly fast hands and combinations. He beat a few great fighters during his reign...Bernard Hopkins, James Toney, Virgil Hill...and a fair amount of very good fighters Reggie Johnson, Montell Griffin, Antonio Tarver, John Ruiz etc., along with some of the more dazzling one sided beatdowns of the 90's when he was in with completely outclassed guys.

I'll always remember him as a phenomenal talent in his prime years.

It's a shame that he decided to fight stiffer competition when he was well past his best...he still has some fairly notable wins though even past his prime...specifically Lacy and Trinidad, I know both were just shells of their former selves when Roy fought them, but Roy wasn't superman anymore either and he still dominated two former World Champions...so that counts for something I guess.

So anyway...yeah that's Roy Jones' Legacy to me.

[diddy]

To me he's a very, very, very natural talented fighter and that took him a hell of a long way. He was a force at Middleweight, Super Middleweight and Light Heavyweight for years either easily outspeeding guys for 12 rounds or just beating the hell out of them with blindingly fast hands and combinations. He beat a few great fighters during his reign...Bernard Hopkins, James Toney, Virgil Hill...and a fair amount of very good fighters Reggie Johnson, Montell Griffin, Antonio Tarver, John Ruiz etc., along with some of the more dazzling one sided beatdowns of the 90's when he was in with completely outclassed guys.

I'll always remember him as a phenomenal talent in his prime years.

It's a shame that he decided to fight stiffer competition when he was well past his best...he still has some fairly notable wins though even past his prime...specifically Lacy and Trinidad, I know both were just shells of their former selves when Roy fought them, but Roy wasn't superman anymore either and he still dominated two former World Champions...so that counts for something I guess.

So anyway...yeah that's Roy Jones' Legacy to me.

He "decided" to fight stiffer competition later on? Umm no. He beat the crap out of everyone in his prime. Michaelzewski isn't exactly a monster he didnt fight. Denis Lebedev was a better fighter than Hopkins, Toney, Hill? Hmm no. Lebedev isn't even better than Montell Griffin.

The only guy during that era was maybe McClellan that could've given him a good fight spanning 3 divisions. Roy made very good fighters look stupid.

[polecateddy]

To me he's a very, very, very natural talented fighter and that took him a hell of a long way. He was a force at Middleweight, Super Middleweight and Light Heavyweight for years either easily outspeeding guys for 12 rounds or just beating the hell out of them with blindingly fast hands and combinations. He beat a few great fighters during his reign...Bernard Hopkins, James Toney, Virgil Hill...and a fair amount of very good fighters Reggie Johnson, Montell Griffin, Antonio Tarver, John Ruiz etc., along with some of the more dazzling one sided beatdowns of the 90's when he was in with completely outclassed guys.

I'll always remember him as a phenomenal talent in his prime years.

It's a shame that he decided to fight stiffer competition when he was well past his best...he still has some fairly notable wins though even past his prime...specifically Lacy and Trinidad, I know both were just shells of their former selves when Roy fought them, but Roy wasn't superman anymore either and he still dominated two former World Champions...so that counts for something I guess.

So anyway...yeah that's Roy Jones' Legacy to me.

He "decided" to fight stiffer competition later on? Umm no. He beat the crap out of everyone in his prime. Michaelzewski isn't exactly a monster he didnt fight. Denis Lebedev was a better fighter than Hopkins, Toney, Hill? Hmm no. Lebedev isn't even better than Montell Griffin.

The only guy during that era was maybe McClellan that could've given him a good fight spanning 3 divisions. Roy made very good fighters look stupid.

And the whole pound for pound best of all time argument is always a little too far fetched. Are you supposed to imagine a prime Roy Jones magically transported back in time as he was? Or was he supposed to have been born and trained back in the 1950's? Hard as it may seem modern fighters are stronger, fitter and faster than your Sugar Ray Robinson's. It's evolution and sports science. Just look at athletics world records.

[ReggieDiggs]

These conversations are always silly. I'm guessing less than 1% of the people here have seen enough fights of fighters from the past to accurately rank them to begin with + its always silly to compare guys from different eras cuz the rules were different, the benefits fighters have today are greater + it seems like people are just bigger in general today. Having said that RJJ was the most unbeatable guy I've ever seen when he was at his peak so to me he represents the #1 guy. Tyson would probably be in my top 5 although his peak was mad short, but during that short peak he was pretty f#cing bad ass. Floyd would probably be #2 or #3. Not sure who'd round out my top 5, but I think I'd have a hard time not putting those three fighters in my top 5 during "my era".

[Perseus]

Roy should go down as an all-time great imo.
Not sure where he would rank because................................I just don't care.
Calling boxers an all-time great based on career accomplishments is good enough for me, let the fantasy fans argue that other stuff.

I'll remember Roy as an exceptional athlete who happened to be a boxer...............a boxer who stepped in the ring with world class competition did things you are not supposed to be able to do(if you have to ask move on to another thread) and still won convincingly. He won titles in four divisions, was undisputed champ at 175(didn't need all four belts at that time) won titles at middleweight and heavyweight and spent the better part of a decade on top of all the p4p lists.
A lot of the boxers he beat during that time turned out to be pretty good when not in the ring with Roy Jones jr.
Unfortunately for him he relied too much on athleticism and when age caused his natural talent to slip just a little his greatness slipped away completely.

This is how I would rank his best work:

John Ruiz UD 12
The former middleweight title holder winning a heavyweight title belt and dominating his younger, much bigger opponent in the process.
If cherry picking the weakest heavyweight title holder were so easy then anybody reading this should be able to provide a list of at least 25 middleweights title holders who went on win heavyweight titles.
Ruiz was a top 5(at least) heavyweight of that time and a Roy Jones jr who did not belong in the division dominated him.
I rate this one here simply due to the history.

James Toney UD 12
Toney was undefeated, in the prime of a hall of fame career and a fixture on the p4p list. Jones turned in what may have been his best performance winning every second of every round of the fight.

Bernard Hopkins UD 12
Just a Riddick Bowe undercard fight at the time, a win that just kept getting bigger over the years. While the fight was competitive Jones clearly defeated Hopkins. Nodody else could beat him until he could no longer fight all twelve rounds. Jones fought and defeated the version of Hopkins that could give 12 tough rounds. I put this win below the other two because it was just two upstart boxers at the time, a fight nobody cared about.

Antonio Tarver UD 12
Another possible hall of famer. The first time Roy took a bit of a beating in a fight, the first time he had to find a way to win because speed wasn't going to be enough.............and he got it done against a very, very solid opponent.

Montell Griffin KO 1
The one and only sighting of "RJ" If you look up and down Roy's resume I'm sure you will find some guys you would rate higher based on their career. I put the Griffin KO this high because of way Roy avenged his first loss, making short work of a very solid opponent who(imo) was never the same afterwards.

There are more good wins on his resume but that is how I would rate his best work.
Beating the shells of Jeff Lacy(who was never very good at any point to begin with) and Felix Trinidad counts for nothing...............shot fighters beating other shot fighters is still fighters who suck beating fighters who suck, doesn't matter that one or both were once very good. Nice name to add to the resume but that's it.

[polecateddy]

Hard as it may seem modern fighters are stronger, fitter and faster than your Sugar Ray Robinson's. It's evolution and sports science. Just look at athletics world records.

That I can't agree with when it comes to Boxing.

Those guys in the glory days would routinely have 15 round fights, fight multiple times in a month or have up to 12-20 fights a year and have a fight career of 60-200 fights.

And guys in the 40s or whatever era you're on about ran marathons too. Just at a slower pace. I would say the pace of today's 12 rounders are actually far more demanding anaerobically.

[diddy]

The overanalyzing in this thread is stupifying. Drop any man in the planet who has ever laced gloves between 160-175 into the same boxing ring as RJJ in the 90's, and that man is going to need to fight the fight of his life to get out of there with a W.

[MEISINGER]

The overanalyzing in this thread is stupifying. Drop any man in the planet who has ever laced gloves between 160-175 into the same boxing ring as RJJ in the 90's, and that man is going to need to fight the fight of his life to get out of there with a W.

i am no fan of roy jones
but what you stated is so true

we as boxing fans are so critical of a fighter when they
lose it.when they have finally stopped looking like the
invincible champion they once were.

now that roy has not been roy in several years
we trash the hell out of him
and forget that at one time people were calling him
the greatest fighter of their generation

no we have to forget about those dominant years

roy should be around the 50 mark of all time greats
and that is nothing to be ashamed of
great fighter who should of quit a long time back

[diddy]

He beat James Toney. Although James was being fed with an IV running up to the fight, it's still a huge win.

If they would have rematched at LHW and Roy won I'd put him near or in the top 10.

Toney probably didnt win a round but Roy had to crush him again in a different weight class to satisfy you?

[victor-romeo]

Was having a convo with some people today about where they think Jones would've fallen in the all-time boxing pantheon had he retired after winning the Heavyweight strap? I said top 5 all-time. One guy agreed. One didnt but he's kind of a young guy who only remembers seeing the tail end of Jones' greatness as he spiraled into a faded shell.

Even had Roy gone out after the first controversial win over Tarver, he would still be, for me, Top 5 all-time. It was that fight that we all saw the slippage. The fading reflexes, the lead legs, etc. It's really too bad Roy didnt see what we all saw. And he probably did see it, but didnt care, and only cared about more paydays. It's too bad. Going to heavyweight should've been it for him. He did anything and everything his body could do. Once he dropped back down in weight after putting on all those lbs, his body clock was accelerated and for a guy who relied almost completely on athletic ability, accelerating the clock is what took a couple more prime years off his shelf life.

Roy truly was the Allen Iverson of his generation. Just a better athlete than everyone else, on another planet, but once the physical gifts left his body - it was over.

I would still place Roy as top 10-15 of all-time even with having gone on to soil his reputation into his 40's, but there's no doubt in my mind he was a top 3-5 GOAT had he gotten the hell out after the Ruiz fight.

I think Roy definitely a top 15 all time just for the way he shut down James Toney. I never fully watched the Hopkins fight but the clips I have seen Hopkins was a bad ass then also and to beat him definitely another feather in Roy's cap, throw in the freak show victory over Ruiz, along with the longevity of fighting at a very high level case can be made for top 15 , Roy's biggest problem he had no foil, no Frazier to his Ali etc. I do wish he would have fought Michewiski(sp) .
I don't agree with Iverson analogy whom I am a big fan of, Roy was a better boxer than Iverson basketball player, Kobe Bryant totally shut down Iverson in their title match early 2000 due to Kobe's length and athleticism, but I would never wear a Kobe Jersey I would wear an Iverson one, but I digress. No one was going to shut Roy Jones down in his prime.

[Rover]

I love how this thread got moved into BOTP even though RJJ hasn't retired.
Roy, are you getting the hint here?

[jezzamundo]

The overanalyzing in this thread is stupifying. Drop any man in the planet who has ever laced gloves between 160-175 into the same boxing ring as RJJ in the 90's, and that man is going to need to fight the fight of his life to get out of there with a W.

The vast majority of fighters between 160-175, yes, but I think there are several fighters, light heavyweights in particular, who would be deserving favourites against RJJ, such as:

Ezzard Charles
Archie Moore
Bob Foster
Michael Spinks

Of the above, I simply can't see RJJ lasting 12 rounds against the top 3 in particular, let alone 15 rounds. I'd also favour Monzon and Hagler to beat RJJ at middleweight, thought not by a lot. At 168lb a prime-for-prime matchup with Calzaghe would be an interesting fight, though I'd favour Jones to win that one.

[polecateddy]

The overanalyzing in this thread is stupifying. Drop any man in the planet who has ever laced gloves between 160-175 into the same boxing ring as RJJ in the 90's, and that man is going to need to fight the fight of his life to get out of there with a W.

The vast majority of fighters between 160-175, yes, but I think there are several fighters, light heavyweights in particular, who would be deserving favourites against RJJ, such as:

Ezzard Charles
Archie Moore
Bob Foster
Michael Spinks

Of the above, I simply can't see RJJ lasting 12 rounds against the top 3 in particular, let alone 15 rounds. I'd also favour Monzon and Hagler to beat RJJ at middleweight, thought not by a lot. At 168lb a prime-for-prime matchup with Calzaghe would be an interesting fight, though I'd favour Jones to win that one.

...so lets get this right. You're saying if slow old Archie Moore was time jumped to the 1990's he would have beaten Roy Jones? :)