BoxRec

hi guys,

i just finished being interviewed about the book for a podcast airing tonight at spam.com. it was a lot of fun. be sure to check it out.

Well done on getting this book published, it really is quite a feat. I find it fascinating reading about how you did the research for this book and how much dedication and hard work it took, I'm sure Harry himself would be touched at all the attention.

If anyone is interested I was interviewed for the spam podcast in regards to Greb. You can listen to it below. My part starts around 1:37.

spam dot tumblr dot com

Any reviews yet?

Very interesting topic. Did you have any interviews with people who saw Greb in the ring? The person would have to be very old. Just asking because you mentioned there was eleven years of research for the book.

Il Duce wrote:A little pricey at $39.95

Looks to be a well researched book. May be a little to much with 719 Pages to read though.

Just ordered it, hope it reads as well as it looks.

Give us a review when you're finished if you would there Duce.

So..it appears you would be wanting to retract your disparaging remarks....I assume.

Always best to read first, then offer a review.

Il Duce wrote:A little pricey at $39.95

Looks to be a well researched book. May be a little to much with 719 Pages to read though.

Just ordered it, hope it reads as well as it looks.

I have access to who orders my book and when. As of yet nobody ordered the book yesterday...

It will be interesting to see what names pop up in the next 24 hrs.

Sounds like they're flying off the shelves. Good thing you don't care who buys them.

Im quite pleased with both the sales and critical response.

Greb was heavily favored to win this bout. When he fought Tunney he had 224 bouts. This was considered the first big test of Tunney's career. Greb rightly won. Most observers gave him no less than 10 of the 15 rounds of a bout held in Tunney's hometown. Greb wasnt going to, and never did, get any favors in New York City. He beat Tunney so bad that Tunney collapsed on the way back to his dressing room. When he came to his mid section was so swollen that his trunks had to be cut off him. He stayed in the dressing for a long time just trying to get up the strength to leave. When he finally left the arena he was seen being supported under both arms by his handlers on the way to the car. He returned to his Red Bank training camp where remained (mostly in bed) for at least a week or two. Tunney later began telling anyone that would listen that his broken nose and the various cuts he received were due to fouls. However, the majority of ringside reporters state very clearly that Greb broke Tunney's nose with the first punch of the fight. The cut above one of his eyes was opened by an accidental clash of head which Tunney himself acknowledged after the fight by stating that it simply an unlucky break and could have just as easily resulted in a cut to Greb. Tunney was on damage control with his excuses and thats that.

At around £25.00 on amazon this book is actually cheaper than the hard copy of the Paxton book. £25 is not a bad price for a 600 page book. I have yet to get a copy but plan to in the near future as I am interested in having a biography which is so deep in detail as this sems to be by what I have heard. Klompton you may like to look at putting this book on Kindle at a lower price as this would increase sales and also its worth remembering that you can take a higher slice of the sales price on Kindle, depending on the price you set it at. I think you will get a certain amount of boxing readers who will want to buy this as a hard copy book, but a putting it on kindle will attract a wider audience, including people who are willing to give it a chance who may well not have brought the hard copy version.

The ~£40 price mark of a lot of those US Boxing books is usually an indication of the limited run the book has got.

£40 for a paperback in print is a bit of a piss-take, especially when you factor in postage. There's around half a dozen I've held off ordering purely on that basis.

I ordered a copy today. I got the Spinks (or is that Spinkses) book yesterday and on first glance looks to be a decent read. Still waiting for the Hagler one to be despatched :S

they made 'em well in those days

Il Duce wrote:On Gene Tunney,

The Fighting Marine did acknowledge that he got thoroughly whipped by Harry Greb on May 23, 1922 -
but I think the 'beating part' was overblown a bit.

6-Weeks later, 25 year-old Gene Tunney was back in the Ring at Rockaway Beach {July 7, 1922} with Fay W. Keiser,
who was a 'frisky sort', who Gene had fought a 10-Round War with back on March 3, 1922.

This time, Gene scored a 'hard-fought' but solid 12-Round Decision over Kaiser.

One wonders, if Gene was so battered in his bout with Harry Greb, why only 6-Weeks later was he back in
the Ring with a 'tough-guy' like 28 year-old 5' 11" 170 lb. - Maryland's - Fay W. Keiser, who had never been
stopped in '53-bouts'.

?????

New York Evening Telegram May 24, 1922
George Underwood
"Bruised, battered, bloody, the crimson trickling and spouting from nostrils, lips, and cuts over each eye in such streams that Referee McPartland's white shirt took on a scarlett hue, and with his whole pain wracked body calling a halt, Tunney weakened and slowed down."

New York Tribune May 24, 1922
Jack Lawrence
"Gene Tunney was a weird and grewsome (sic) spectacle. Ragged gashes poured a crimson flow from over each eye, his lips were swollen and his nose was sadly battered. He fought gamely enough and he had the crowd with him but he was no more a match for the revolving tornado of Pittsburgh than was Tommy Gibbons."

New York Tribune May 24, 1922
Grantland Rice
"Through the red mist Tunney glared at his foe as he pawed in vain for an opening, by the fourth canto he had lost too much stamina to get anywhere... ...he kept Tunney's trainer busy applying new skin over fresh cuts."

New York Times May 24, 1922
James Dawson
"In defeat Tunney was a sorry sight. Shorn of his title the big Greenwish Village boxer presented a pitiable spectacle as he crossed the ring to shake the hand of his conquere. Blood poured from a nasty gash over Tunney's left eye where an old cut was ripped open early in the fray as the heads of the combatants collided. The tireless fists of Greb had cut a gash over Tunney's right eye and the beaten champions nose and mouth were bleeding freely - evidence of the relentless attack of the sprightly Greb..."

New York Morning World May 24 1922
Bert "Hype" Igoe
"Covered with gore from cuts over both eyes, Tunney fought to the last ditch but it was a losing fight from the start. The human windmills flayed the young Don Quixote to ribbons."

International News Service May 24, 1922
Davis J. Walsh
"Tunney, smothered by the incessant stream of Greb punches, his face cut into hamburger, never had a chance after the first exchanges. His nose spurted blood in the first thirty seconds of fighting, his lips were raw and bleeding, his right eye dripped a constant crimson stream and his left was barely discernable through the gushing blood."

New York Evening World May 24, 1922
Vincent Treanor
"From the sixth on Gene was a sorry sight. Blood streamed from each eyebrow, his nose shed more and his mouth was a red smear. Greb's body became spotted and referee McPartland looked like a busy butcher after unloading a truck of fresh beef."

Pittsburgh Dispatch May 24, 1922
William Peet
"In the tenth Tunney's face became one crimson smear. Gene's seconds washed away the blood between rounds but the fight would be on only a few seconds when those murderous gloves would find their mark - one, two, three rushes and the claret would start flowing."

United Press May 24, 1922
Henry L. Farrell
(Giving Greb every round) "Tunney was bewildered from the opening gong and he groped about trying to get over one punch for the knockout, but Greb was never there when the big glove arrived. Covered with blood, a nasty cut over his left eye partially blinding him, Tunney was nothing but a game fighter who tried his best to fight a battle he knew nothing about."

Brooklyn Standard Union May 24, 1922
Gene Tunney
"I guess I got a pretty tough break. When our heads came together it was my eye that opened. It could have happened to Greb instead of to me, but the luck was the other way."


A Man Must Fight
Gene Tunney
"I left the ring and walked up the aisle toward my dressing room. This was negotiated only through nervous excitiment. I climbed the flight of stairs, each step getting higher and more difficult, and, as I got near the top, the reaction set in. I collapsed; the top step was impossible. I could not make it. The boys carried me into the dressing room and set me up on the rubbing table.

The Life of Gene Tunney The Fighting Marine told by his old friend Ed Van Every
Ed Van Every
"He had lost a great quantity of blood and his body was so swollen from the relentless pounding that had been inflicted that it was necessary to cut the tights from his body."

United News June 2, 1922
Westbrook Pegler
"Bandages covered the Tunney lad's face; he slumped between two handlers; he shuffled from the dressing room to the cab, sagging, crushed and bruised, as thoroughly mauled as any fighter you ever saw."

A Man Must Fight
Gene Tunney
"My next consideration was to get my body and face restored to normal after the pummeling and battering that I had recieved from Greb duing those 15 blood rounds. I did not recover as quickly as I expected. The strain of the fight and the loss of the blood left me weak and exhausted. I was compelled to remain in bed for a weak when I returned to Red Bank. A blood tonic prescribed by Dr. Shea soon fixed me up. In a few weeks time I was again hale and heart and ready for renewed action."

Six weeks rest was a pretty good amount of time back then. These guys didnt take as long off for injuries as fighters today. When Greb was blinded in one eye by Norfolk he fought a week later. He often fought with broken fingers, hands, wrists, etc. He broke a rib against Tiger Flowers and fought less than two weeks later against Jimmy Slattery (if youve ever had a broken rib you know how hard that would be). Less than a month after suffering the broken rib against Flowers he was facing Gene Tunney, who was known as a good body puncher. In fact Greb's rib wasnt fully healed until the following spring yet he continued fighting. Look at Bryan Downey when he fought Wilson in New Jersey. He had a very bad cut on his nose GOING INTO that fight. He simply covered his nose with plaster of paris and went to work.

Fay Keiser was tough but he was nothing special. He certainly wasnt a world class fighter like a Tunney or Greb. He was also smaller than Tunney and his career was winding down in 1922. His biggest win was against Bob Martin in Baltimore and Martin was nothing special either. Outside of a young, green and injured Greb he lost to the best fighters he faced:

Leo Houck 0-1-2
Harry Greb 1-2-6
Tommy Loughran 0-1
Gene Tunney 0-2
Jeff Smith 0-1
Jimmy Slattery 0-1
Young Stribling 0-1


Keiser is exactly the type of fighter you would want to come back against. Hes durable so he will give you a workout, but he cant punch so hes not that threatening and he isnt going to beat Tunney on points either.

References of that nature and quotes that can be confirmed makes a body of work....well.............downright believable.

Serves to separate the wheat from the chaff, the pros from the amateurs, the non-fiction from the pulp-fiction.

According to the 1940 U.S. Census, one Fay Keiser, a 46-year-old native of Ohio, was living with his wife and six children, whose ages ranged from 1 to 16, in LeVale, Allegany County, Maryland. Keiser owned his home valued at $4,000. and worked as a "patrolman" at an "Art. Silk" place, earning $2,400. for fifty-two weeks of work during 1939.

Note- According to an article in Wikipeda, there was a Celanese Corporation of America plant in Amcelle, Allegany County, Maryland which manufactured what was called "Artificial Silk," which were yarns and fabrics made out of cellulose acetate as an alternative to silk. During World War I, the plant was set up to manufacture a cheaper fabric for airplanes. In 1924, cellulose acetate products started to be manufactured at the plant. At one time, 13,000 people worked at the plant, making it a major employer in the county. The plant was closed in 1983 and later torn down to make way for a new prison.

- Chuck Johnston

Il Duce wrote:Excellent Research,

Mr. Chuck Johnston

Fay W. Keiser,

"Gene Tunney was the best fighter I ever faced. He was always 2-Steps ahead of me in in the 'thinking department'."

"By November 1916, I had already fought Harry Greb '6-Times', and each time it was give-and-take. My Manager,
John W. Snyder wanted me to go after him again, and I was hot on his trail for a 7th-Bout. I was ready for a
6-Rounder in Pittsburg, where I knew I could out-fight him. And in a 10-Rounder, I would have given him the beating
of his life, and maybe drop him. I was willing to bet the Family Clock that I would beat him. I wanted the fight
in Pittsburg."

Il Duce- Fighters are different in so many ways from regular people. There are fighters who profess that they can beat far superior fighters with some of them really believing that they could do it. During the time that I have been a boxing fan, I was always fascinated by Evander Holyfield's tremendous self-belief. Of course, Holyfield was able to have success against more talented or bigger fighters. But he also stuck around far too long, often professing that he could do well despite all evidence to the contrary.

In regards to the 1940 U.S. Census information about Fay Keiser, I have read that the average annual household income was between $1,300. and $1,400. in the United States at the time. That means Keiser was making a comparatively decent living if his annual wage was $2,500. in 1939. It could be that Keiser would be regarded as a security guard today rather than a "watchman" or a "patrolman."

- Chuck Johnston

Il Duce wrote:Excellent Research,

Mr. Chuck Johnston

Fay W. Keiser,

"Gene Tunney was the best fighter I ever faced. He was always 2-Steps ahead of me in in the 'thinking department'."

"By November 1916, I had already fought Harry Greb '6-Times', and each time it was give-and-take. My Manager,
John W. Snyder wanted me to go after him again, and I was hot on his trail for a 7th-Bout. I was ready for a
6-Rounder in Pittsburg, where I knew I could out-fight him. And in a 10-Rounder, I would have given him the beating
of his life, and maybe drop him. I was willing to bet the Family Clock that I would beat him. I wanted the fight
in Pittsburg."

Whats the source of this?

By Nov 1916 Keiser had already fought Greb in 3 10 rounders and the best he got was a draw in his adopted home town. 2 months after this quote Keiser got a 20 rounder with Greb and lost a brutal beating.

The Post Gazette didnt exist in 1916. There was the Gazette-Times and The Post. Two seperate papers that merged decades later.

This telephone conversation was published November 6, 1916 in the Pittsburgh Gazette-Times.

Like I said. By this point Keiser had fought Greb 6 times. Three of those bouts were ten rounders. The only time he beat Greb was in Connellsville when Greb had an injured hand.

At the time there was no way that Snyder was going to get a match with Greb in Pittsburgh. Harry was already scheduled to fight one of his most important bouts two days after this discussion was published. He met Willie KO Brennan, the pride of Buffalo at Erie, PA and won. Buffalo was a great fight town and considered sort of a gateway to the bigger venues. When Greb defeated their hero they couldnt believe it and invited him to their city for a rematch. Greb complied, won, and his career was now on the fast track. He became so popular in Buffalo that he was immediately asked back again to face Tommy Burke of St. Louis. Burke was knocked down several times in losing that bout. Before finally facing Keiser in a 20 rounder two months later Greb fought defeated George KO Brown, Bob Moha, and Joe Borrell. Those three fighters alone are as good or better than anyone Keiser ever defeated. When Greb faced Keiser there was a purse of $1500, $1000 to the winner and $500 to the loser. The fighters also had a $1000 side bet. Red Mason was also wagering heavily on Greb winning. Cleveland boxing expert Matt Hinkle refereed. Greb started out from the first round at a furious pace that few thought he could continue. By the fifth he had opened cuts both inside and outside Keisers mouth and smashed his nose. By the end of the fight Keiser was a swollen, bloody mess. Greb's gloves were soaked with blood and covered with gore. He never let up the pace and when the fight was over he had lost ten pounds. Keiser stated "Greb is one of the bet today wearing gloves." Greb said "In the eighteenth round I said to him, dont hold on so, Fay, Im not going to knock you out! He was cut up so badly and his throat so choked that he could not answer me."

Il Duce wrote:Fay W. Keiser,

Had fought '11-Bouts' in 1916, and he was a bit worn out at the end of the year,
despite being Age 23.

I believe that Fay W. Keiser said he just didn't have it on January 29, 1917 when he fought Harry Greb
the '7th-Time', as he was nursing a previous wrist-injury.

Fay had injured his left-wrist in bout with Leo Houck on December 27, 1916 in Cumberland, Maryland
{one-month earlier}> Fay said he didn't want to pass up the bout with Harry Greb on January 29, 1917
because of the 'fight purse', and the bout was already scheduled for Lonaconing, Maryland.

An injured Fay took a 'rough' going over from Harry Greb in that 20-Rounder, but was back in the Ring on
April 3, 1917 {8-Weeks later} against Jack Clark in Cumberland, Maryland.

Il Duce- Take a look how many bouts Harry Greb had in 1916. I counted 19 with many of them taking place in the last three months of the year. Wouldn't you think that Greb also had a sore body by the time he fought Fay Keiser early in 1917?

- Chuck Johnston

Il Duce wrote:Mr. Chuck Johnston,,,,,,,

But the 22 year-old Harry Greb was not..........'Human'.

Fay W. Keiser had gone 7-3-1 {4 KO's} in 1916, but had fought a lot of Rounds in his
previous 4-Bouts {43 in Total}, and was nursing an injured left-wrist.

If any fighter who ever lived, could be described as "non human", it would be the
Iron City Express, Harry Greb!...His record and exploits are almost surreal....
A bigger and more pliable edition of Henry Armstrong, with immense footspeed to boot...

Il Duce wrote:I guess it can be said, that Harry Greb 'liked a good scrap'.

I appears that Harry Greb's 20-Round bout with Fay W. Keiser on January 29, 1917
took a lot out of him.

12-Days later {February 10, 1917} Harry Greb was handily beaten by Mike Gibbons
in 6-Rounder at the National A.C in Philadelphia.

According to 'Middleweight' Mike Gibbon's, Greb foolishly took this bout on 'one-weeks'
notice, after having gone 20-Rounds with Fay W. Keiser a few days earlier.

Harry Greb had not fully recovered from the Keiser bout, and was sick in bed for a
few days.

But since the bout was a 6-Rounder, Greb took the bout on short-notice, figuring he
could out-speed Mike Gibbons in a short fast-paced 6-Round fight.

I wish we would see this Il Duce more often, clearly you're a knowledgeable boxing fan and have a lot of interesting facts to discuss about a lot of fighters. You're just so often focused on your Ali hatred that your Boxing knowledge rarely surfaces. I would honestly like to read your thoughts on other fighters.