BoxRec

Ambling Alp II wrote: I like Leonard and can't stand Duran, any you are vice versa, so we will seldom find common ground here.

I disagree with much of this. First, Leonard was much more effective fighting at long range. Sure, Duran will still have his moments when Leonard fought from the outside, and sure Leonard will occasionally have his fighting on the inside. However, generally Leonard is much better off fighting from long range. He could use his speed, reach, and clean punching advantages there.

I don't accept that Duran fought the "wrong" fight the 2nd time. He tried to do what he did in the first fight and what he tried to do in most of his fights. However, Leonard fought a completely different fight and more like he normally did. The result was that Leonard handled him much easier. Had they fought a 3rd time six months or a year later, the result would have been similar to the 2nd fight except Duran probably would not have quit again; he would have lost a lopsided decision.

There is a reason that Roberto "Forever a Lightweight" Duran never fought as a welterweight again and moved out of Leonard's weight class. He was not going to beat Leonard again and he knew it.

Cherrybomb wrote:

Ambling Alp II wrote: I like Leonard and can't stand Duran, any you are vice versa, so we will seldom find common ground here.

I disagree with much of this. First, Leonard was much more effective fighting at long range. Sure, Duran will still have his moments when Leonard fought from the outside, and sure Leonard will occasionally have his fighting on the inside. However, generally Leonard is much better off fighting from long range. He could use his speed, reach, and clean punching advantages there.

I don't accept that Duran fought the "wrong" fight the 2nd time. He tried to do what he did in the first fight and what he tried to do in most of his fights. However, Leonard fought a completely different fight and more like he normally did. The result was that Leonard handled him much easier. Had they fought a 3rd time six months or a year later, the result would have been similar to the 2nd fight except Duran probably would not have quit again; he would have lost a lopsided decision.

There is a reason that Roberto "Forever a Lightweight" Duran never fought as a welterweight again and moved out of Leonard's weight class. He was not going to beat Leonard again and he knew it.

Why are you talking about Leonard-Duran 1 as if it were a hypothetical matchup? Yes, generally Leonard may have been a better fighter from long range but he was one hell of an all-rounder. This is not a theoretical exercise, its a watch-observe-conclude excercise. All you have to do is open your eyes and see that Duran was putting a beating on him from long range for the first 5 rounds. No one predicted it, but thats what happened. And Duran wasnt occasionally having his moments from the outside. He was consistently whipping his ass for 5 rounds from the outside.

And sorry, but LOL at Duran moving up because he knew he couldnt beat Leonard again Duran was a disgraced fighter after the no mas fight, no way he was getting the rubber match anytime soon. He wasnt pulling the shots anymore, nobody wanted to promote him. Furthermore, his eating and drinking habits (which are well documented), especially after Leonard 1 were never gonna allow him to stay at the weight very long. Oh yeah, and he did fight Leonard again in '89.

Cherrybomb wrote:

Ambling Alp II wrote: I like Leonard and can't stand Duran, any you are vice versa, so we will seldom find common ground here.

I disagree with much of this. First, Leonard was much more effective fighting at long range. Sure, Duran will still have his moments when Leonard fought from the outside, and sure Leonard will occasionally have his fighting on the inside. However, generally Leonard is much better off fighting from long range. He could use his speed, reach, and clean punching advantages there.

I don't accept that Duran fought the "wrong" fight the 2nd time. He tried to do what he did in the first fight and what he tried to do in most of his fights. However, Leonard fought a completely different fight and more like he normally did. The result was that Leonard handled him much easier. Had they fought a 3rd time six months or a year later, the result would have been similar to the 2nd fight except Duran probably would not have quit again; he would have lost a lopsided decision.

There is a reason that Roberto "Forever a Lightweight" Duran never fought as a welterweight again and moved out of Leonard's weight class. He was not going to beat Leonard again and he knew it.

Why are you talking about Leonard-Duran 1 as if it were a hypothetical matchup? Yes, generally Leonard may have been a better fighter from long range but he was one hell of an all-rounder. This is not a theoretical exercise, its a watch-observe-conclude excercise. All you have to do is open your eyes and see that Duran was putting a beating on him from long range for the first 5 rounds. No one predicted it, but thats what happened. And Duran wasnt occasionally having his moments from the outside. He was consistently whipping his ass for 5 rounds from the outside.

And sorry, but LOL at Duran moving up because he knew he couldnt beat Leonard again Duran was a disgraced fighter after the no mas fight, no way he was getting the rubber match anytime soon. He wasnt pulling the shots anymore, nobody wanted to promote him. Furthermore, his eating and drinking habits (which are well documented), especially after Leonard 1 were never gonna allow him to stay at the weight very long. Oh yeah, and he did fight Leonard again in '89.

King Carlos wrote:Oh.

Ambling Alp II wrote: Not talking about the first fight as if it was a hypothetical matchup. When Leonard fought from the outside he did better than he did on the inside, for the most part. Duran consistently whipped his ass for the first 5 rounds? Wow.

He was never going to stay 147 for long ? Interesting that lightweight could not even make the 147 pound limit anymore.

Look what happened in the 2nd fight. Leonard for the most part fought at long range and Duran for the most part could not do much. He knew he could not win and quit.
That was the blueprint for beating Duran. Benitez fought a similar fight against Duran and again Duran could not deal with it.

Duran had eating and drinking problems? Don't care.

Il Duce wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Leonard went toe to toe because he had no choice. Duran wouldn't let him fight any other way and Padilla wasn't going to break when Roberto was fighting in the clinch. Ray could have had any game plan he wanted and he would have ended up going toe to toe or getting run out of the ring.

I thought it was one of Ray's best performances. The guy he was facing was a fighting machine. The biggest problem for Ray wasn't that he slugged it out, it was that Duran was significantly better defensively and quicker with his feet.

Excellent Analysis........

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Cosell was all over Vito. When I watched it live I had Hagler by 3 or 5, I don't recall exactly. Years later when I watched it I had Marvin by 9 rounds. Huge robbery.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Leonard went toe to toe because he had no choice. Duran wouldn't let him fight any other way and Padilla wasn't going to break when Roberto was fighting in the clinch. Ray could have had any game plan he wanted and he would have ended up going toe to toe or getting run out of the ring.

I thought it was one of Ray's best performances. The guy he was facing was a fighting machine. The biggest problem for Ray wasn't that he slugged it out, it was that Duran was significantly better defensively and quicker with his feet.

yancey wrote:Back to topic, I think it would be commonly thought that Marciano would destroy Jerry Quarry.

I'm not sure about that.

man wrote:

Il Duce wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Leonard went toe to toe because he had no choice. Duran wouldn't let him fight any other way and Padilla wasn't going to break when Roberto was fighting in the clinch. Ray could have had any game plan he wanted and he would have ended up going toe to toe or getting run out of the ring.

I thought it was one of Ray's best performances. The guy he was facing was a fighting machine. The biggest problem for Ray wasn't that he slugged it out, it was that Duran was significantly better defensively and quicker with his feet.

Excellent Analysis........

no. it is not an excellent analysis.

commentators immediately mention the unexpected,
flat footed fight plan of ray.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHF5SEhdstE

interview with leonard after the fight. between 4:30
and 5:15 leonard is asked about his strategy. at 6:45
he says what he would do in the rematch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcgpf6TK39c

and finally the second fight. you immediately
see leonard on his toes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGbP1lwLYSE

compare the first seconds in both fights and you
see the difference immediately appearing, before
ray was even hit.

now, it still might be the case that all this is nonsense
and that duran had the ability to completely dictate the
style of the fight in the first bout and miraculously lost
this capability within a few months. there just seems to
be some evidence against that view.

keithmoonhangover wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Leonard went toe to toe because he had no choice. Duran wouldn't let him fight any other way and Padilla wasn't going to break when Roberto was fighting in the clinch. Ray could have had any game plan he wanted and he would have ended up going toe to toe or getting run out of the ring.

I thought it was one of Ray's best performances. The guy he was facing was a fighting machine. The biggest problem for Ray wasn't that he slugged it out, it was that Duran was significantly better defensively and quicker with his feet.

Leonard comes out at the start of the first round, flat footed, I suppose he had no choice in that?

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Commentators and a fighter making excuses after a loss? That's your 'proof'?

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Leonard went toe to toe because he had no choice. Duran wouldn't let him fight any other way and Padilla wasn't going to break when Roberto was fighting in the clinch. Ray could have had any game plan he wanted and he would have ended up going toe to toe or getting run out of the ring.

I thought it was one of Ray's best performances. The guy he was facing was a fighting machine. The biggest problem for Ray wasn't that he slugged it out, it was that Duran was significantly better defensively and quicker with his feet.

man wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Commentators and a fighter making excuses after a loss? That's your 'proof'?

commentators saying it right after the first fight has
started and the fighter making a prediction about how
he will enter the rematch ... well to me that seems
substantially better than what you have to offer: a
personal opinion.

but let's end this here. we disagree. that's all for me.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:He could have bounced on his toes and immediately been bulled into the ropes like he was anytime he looked for some room. There was only one way that fight was going down, especially with the way Padilla reffed it.

keithmoonhangover wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:He could have bounced on his toes and immediately been bulled into the ropes like he was anytime he looked for some room. There was only one way that fight was going down, especially with the way Padilla reffed it.

But he didn't bounce. He chose not to. Watch the start of the fight again and you'll see.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:I've seen the fight many times, that has nothing to do with my point anyway. Duran's pressure and closing speed in that fight was impervious to backward movement. Watch the fight again and you'll see.