BoxRec

I respect Foreman and his achievements as a fighter, but the stuff he says are way off.

Lewis is not even a top 20 HW, let alone a top 10 HW. Great fighters dont get knocked out by 2 journeymen. End of story.

RazorKO wrote:I respect Foreman and his achievements as a fighter, but the stuff he says are way off.

Lewis is not even a top 20 HW, let alone a top 10 HW. Great fighters dont get knocked out by 2 journeymen. End of story.

While McCall and Rahman weren't world beaters, they were legitimate contenders. Ultimately Lewis took both men lightly and avenged both defeats, one of which was clearly before Lewis reached his prime. It's clear from other threads that you don't like Lewis, while I have him in my all-time top 10, I can respect those who place him just outside, but to not have him in your top 20 reeks of bias.

jezzamundo wrote:

RazorKO wrote:I respect Foreman and his achievements as a fighter, but the stuff he says are way off.

Lewis is not even a top 20 HW, let alone a top 10 HW. Great fighters dont get knocked out by 2 journeymen. End of story.

While McCall and Rahman weren't world beaters, they were legitimate contenders. Ultimately Lewis took both men lightly and avenged both defeats, one of which was clearly before Lewis reached his prime. It's clear from other threads that you don't like Lewis, while I have him in my all-time top 10, I can respect those who place him just outside, but to not have him in your top 20 reeks of bias.

I admit, Lewis did fight good competition and took on all comers, but theres no excuse for being knocked out by Rahman and McCall. Great fighters just don't get starched, twice, by gate keepers.

Not to mention going life and death with Bruno, Mavoric and Mercer. (Who I thought was robbed against Lewis). Plus getting shook up by Tucker and Briggs, and knocked down by Akiwande.

RazorKO wrote:

jezzamundo wrote:

RazorKO wrote:I respect Foreman and his achievements as a fighter, but the stuff he says are way off.

Lewis is not even a top 20 HW, let alone a top 10 HW. Great fighters dont get knocked out by 2 journeymen. End of story.

While McCall and Rahman weren't world beaters, they were legitimate contenders. Ultimately Lewis took both men lightly and avenged both defeats, one of which was clearly before Lewis reached his prime. It's clear from other threads that you don't like Lewis, while I have him in my all-time top 10, I can respect those who place him just outside, but to not have him in your top 20 reeks of bias.

I admit, Lewis did fight good competition and took on all comers, but theres no excuse for being knocked out by Rahman and McCall. Great fighters just don't get starched, twice, by gate keepers.

Not to mention going life and death with Bruno, Mavoric and Mercer. (Who I thought was robbed against Lewis). Plus getting shook up by Tucker and Briggs, and knocked down by Akiwande.

Fair enough, although you can pick apart practically anyone's career if you want to. I think that Lewis's performances against Bruno, Mercer and Mavrovic are in a way, more of a black mark on his career than the two knockouts, which lets face it, were flash knockouts. I think Mavrovic is a lot better than people gave him credit for - he showed great chin, heart and stamina against Lewis. Ultimately the Bruno fight was a great come-from-behind victory for Lewis, but I had him down 4 rounds to 2 prior to the stoppage and he was being throughly out-jabbed, although again this fight was before Lewis's prime. If anything, the Mercer fight is the biggest mark of Lewis's name - I won't disagree with anyone who had Mercer winning the fight, though I scored it for Lewis by a single round, he was VERY lucky to win that one and I think a draw would have been the fairest result. Considering that the fight took place when Lewis was at the beginning of his prime years and Mercer had already been convincingly beaten by Holmes and Holyfield, it's not the most impressive fight for Lennox.

Nothing wrong with getting shaken up in a fight and going on to win convincingly. Lewis didn't have the best chin in the division, but I think it was a solid B-, good enough to get him through several flush blows from Vitali and Mercer in those fights.

Foreman is entitled to his opinion. But I don't see how the fails to recognise that the depth of the Heavyweight Division in the 90s was poor compared to what was going on in the 70s.

Lewis had too much skill and style for Foreman. Foreman knows the great boxer like Lewis will always handle the great brawler.

Foreman's high praise for Lewis is completely valid and justified. Lewis is the greatest. Too smart too strong too big. He beat every man he ever faced and left the sport with his wealth and health intact. IN the end Lewis beat the game, the game didn't beat him. Credit for Foreman for calling it like it is. Lewis the GOAT.

Lewis never applied his 'skill and style' on a brute like Foreman. Given Lewis's glass chin and his various nightmares against Mercer, Mavrovic, and Holyfield (in the rematch), the scares against men like Briggs, it's absurd to dismiss George Foreman against him.

I don't think Foreman hit as hard as those shots Rahman and McCall landed on Lewis. THose were homerun shots. Foreman's power was more thumping, more arm punching not very good technique. I never saw Foreman land a one shot KO on a top level HWT.

I really believe Lewis at his best would be able to handle prime Foreman with skills, jab, movement, smarts. Of course it would be dangeorus and interesting.

But the bottom line is that even George himself admits Lewis is "the best."

montrealsuper wrote: I never saw Foreman land a one shot KO on a top level HWT.

But how many top level, world heavyweight champions have you seen suffer one shot KOs?

There's not many, and yet mighty Lennox is one of them. And he suffered it twice. Twice!

Also - who else did McCall and Rahman KO with one shot?

Not being able to ice Joe Frazier, Ken Norton, Muhammad Ali, or Evander Holyfield with one shot does not mean you cannot one shot KO Lennox Lewis.

RazorKO wrote:I respect Foreman and his achievements as a fighter, but the stuff he says are way off.

Lewis is not even a top 20 HW, let alone a top 10 HW. Great fighters dont get knocked out by 2 journeymen. End of story.

Wow, I hope you have Wlad about 70 on the all-time list then.

McCalls "KO" of Lewis is one of the most bullshit stoppages I've ever seen in a championship fight, that ref was on the take.

Apart from that I agree with what's been said.

There is a You Tube video that is a compilation of Lewis getting tagged by big shots and not going down. It ably shows that in fact there was nothing wrong with Lewis' chin. After all people see Holyfield as pretty tough, but he was stopped by a faded Bowe and all over the place against Bert Cooper. Every fighter has off days.

banjo wrote:McCalls "KO" of Lewis is one of the most bullshit stoppages I've ever seen in a championship fight, that ref was on the take.

Apart from that I agree with what's been said.

I don't know about the ref being on the take, but I agree that it was a highly dubious stoppage. Lewis was on jelly legs, hence his walking around the ring, but the least the ref should have done is stepped back and asked Lewis to walk to him.

polecateddy wrote:There is a You Tube video that is a compilation of Lewis getting tagged by big shots and not going down. It ably shows that in fact there was nothing wrong with Lewis' chin. After all people see Holyfield as pretty tough, but he was stopped by a faded Bowe and all over the place against Bert Cooper. Every fighter has off days.

Good post, I'd agree that there was nothing wrong with Lewis's chin, but clearly it wasn't made of iron, like that of Holyfield or Ali. Those who claim that Lewis has a glass jaw don't really know what a glass jaw is. See Audley Harrison, Amir Khan, Travis Walker, Marvis Frazier, Tommy Morrison etc.

You could add in Herbie Hide. As a chinny-type heavyweight he was left in a twitching heap after two rounds with Vitali.

polecateddy wrote:There is a You Tube video that is a compilation of Lewis getting tagged by big shots and not going down. It ably shows that in fact there was nothing wrong with Lewis' chin. After all people see Holyfield as pretty tough, but he was stopped by a faded Bowe and all over the place against Bert Cooper. Every fighter has off days.

The difference is that Holyfield, despite getting knocked down, always gets up and fights back. Lewis on the other hand goes down...and stays down!

RazorKO wrote:

polecateddy wrote:There is a You Tube video that is a compilation of Lewis getting tagged by big shots and not going down. It ably shows that in fact there was nothing wrong with Lewis' chin. After all people see Holyfield as pretty tough, but he was stopped by a faded Bowe and all over the place against Bert Cooper. Every fighter has off days.

The difference is that Holyfield, despite getting knocked down, always gets up and fights back. Lewis on the other hand goes down...and stays down!

Against Rahman, at altitude and poorly prepared yes. Against McCall, he was on his feet and really should have been allowed to continue. Not saying he would have made it through the round though, as Oliver really was a raging bull that night.

At the time of the McCall Lewis stoppage, Lewis is using the ref to prop himself up. After the fight is waved off and he tries protest his legs are still dancing. As Larry Merchant said post-fight, McCall would only have finished him.

jezzamundo wrote:

RazorKO wrote:I respect Foreman and his achievements as a fighter, but the stuff he says are way off.

Lewis is not even a top 20 HW, let alone a top 10 HW. Great fighters dont get knocked out by 2 journeymen. End of story.

While McCall and Rahman weren't world beaters, they were legitimate contenders. Ultimately Lewis took both men lightly and avenged both defeats, one of which was clearly before Lewis reached his prime. It's clear from other threads that you don't like Lewis, while I have him in my all-time top 10, I can respect those who place him just outside, but to not have him in your top 20 reeks of bias.

Joe Louis was knocked down by various people and went life and death with Billy Conn - do you not rate Louis either?

I’m neutral on the Foreman-Lewis debate. I can see ways for both men. Lennox was KO’d cleanly by Rahman and McCall. Foreman was stopped by an old man not renowned for his punching power (as described in 1970s copies of The Ring)…and he was floored by Jimmy Young, who was hardly a puncher.

I’d expect a very cautious Lewis to try and get Foreman into the second half of the fight…and a swinging Foreman hoping to close the show early.

I cannot believe anyone would really give credence to Foreman's KD suffered against Jimmy Young.

Jimmy Young was hurt in the 7th.

Was Foreman anything like hurt in the 12? No.

Anyway.

loaded_gloves wrote:I cannot believe anyone would really give credence to Foreman's KD suffered against Jimmy Young.

Jimmy Young was hurt in the 7th.

Was Foreman anything like hurt in the 12? No.

Anyway.

Actually he was hurt in the last round. Young landed a right prior to the KD that staggered George and then shortly after dropped him.\

Are you saying it wasn't a legit KD?

Can't imagine Lewis would have been dropped by Young.

The Great John L wrote:

loaded_gloves wrote:I cannot believe anyone would really give credence to Foreman's KD suffered against Jimmy Young.

Jimmy Young was hurt in the 7th.

Was Foreman anything like hurt in the 12? No.

Anyway.

Actually he was hurt in the last round. Young landed a right prior to the KD that staggered George and then shortly after dropped him.\

Are you saying it wasn't a legit KD?

Let's be honest, Foreman had no legs b/c he was exhausted and dehydrated, so much so that he collapsed in the dressing room after the fight and had his "Come to Jesus" experience. He wasn't "hurt" by the power of Young's shots . . Ray Leonard probably would've been able to drop George at that point of the fight.

dempseyfire wrote:Let's be honest, Foreman had no legs b/c he was exhausted and dehydrated, so much so that he collapsed in the dressing room after the fight and had his "Come to Jesus" experience. He wasn't "hurt" by the power of Young's shots . . Ray Leonard probably would've been able to drop George at that point of the fight.

Of course it had a lot to do with his fatigue, but George wasn’t completely spent and was still moving forward, hands up and throwing punches until the final bell. He certainly wasn’t as spent as Shavers in all but one of the fights where he was stopped. Being able to fight rounds and being effective at the end is usually a hallmark of the greates, unless your name happens to be Foreman.

Fatigue is always given as an excuse for George getting dropped by Young and Ali, yet the reality is that besides the KD caused by about 30 Quarry power shots, his contemporary Shavers KDs were also after he was fatigued, and he was almost always to the point of no longer even being able to throw punches.

Let's also be honest that many fighters collapse in their dressing rooms from fatigue and it's very likely that young George's somewhat fragile mental state helped to contribute to the whole "Come to Jesus" episode. Let's not forget that he also didn't react very well after Ali beat the piss out of him either. Mental toughness is also usually critical for great fighters and is always mentioned as a shortcoming of Tyson’s, but nobody ever seems to want to mention that aspect of the game when it comes to big George.

Young beat the best version of Foreman that night. Yes George was tired and dehydrated. But isn’t stamina and resilience a critical component of being a great fighter?

That's why I think the Mercer fight was one of Lewis's most notable performances. He may not have performed to expectations, but he lasted the distance and pulled out a slugfest against a strong and hard hitting opponent. Kind of the same way that I think George showed more of what made him great when he outlasted his clone Ron Lyle in one of the great slugfests of all time.

Lewis was much faster, more skilled and expecrienced and probably hit almost as hard as George so I'd favor Lewis over George, probably 2 out 3 fights.

When Foreman boxed Young he had been without water for two days and fought twelve rounds in stifling jungle heat.

How exactly would Lennox Lewis perform in a tough fight against, oh I don't know, Zeljko Mavrovic, in such intolerable conditions? The Mavrovic fight being the one he nearly dropped from exhaustion and actually blacked out in the dressing room afterwards. Or how about Ray Mercer in similar conditions?

It's silly to detract from Foreman for the Young fight, given the circumstances, and yet praise Lewis' loss to Mercer because he endured through the less than desert heat of New York City better than Foreman endured the Congo or Puerto Rico.