Il Duce- Please give me your top ten heavyweights in order

[evrenb]

My mind flashes back to a hotel room in New York City before the first Frazier fight. Ali was watching the news. A story came on about ancient inhabitants of a Jewish nursing home who were being evicted because they couldn’t come up with $100,000. It was cold in New York, and the thought of those old people on the street got to Ali. Without any discussion, he reached for the phone and called the TV station. He would donate the $100,000 provided his name not be used. Ali did not want trouble from the Muslims or from certain members of the Ali Circus who were chronically “in need.” Money was given, it arrived in time, old people were saved, the curtain comes down, go to black and a happy ending.

Thankyou ThatOne. Beautiful stories and touchingkeep them coming....Have you seen the 'Devil Incarnate's' website??

http://alicenter.org/

This man generates so much love and money for charity...

A great Man...Ali once said ' The man who views the world at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life'

Ali has travelled a long journey and grew up along the way....

Evren

[keithmoonhangover]

'Porky' Dan Flynn was better than Lamar 'KO' Clark.


Did Jack Dempsey beat better fighters than Muhammad Ali.

No, I think Muhammad Ali would have been Jack's best opponent.

Muhammad Ali was a little better than Gene Tunney.

Do you think Willard was better than Liston?

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Keith Moon,

You're a great drummer, but John Bonham was more consistent.

Cassius Clay/Muhammad Ali had the benefit of Television and an intense Public Relations team.

Plus, a third-rate Brooklyn Lawyer turned ABC Broadcaster by the name of 'Howie the Shill' playing
up everything for him.

Don't be sucked in by the 'Ali Syndrome'. Where many found themselves, as they fell into the
'root for me because the other guy is no good trap'.

Jack Dempsey saved Boxing.

Muhammad Ali turned it into a 'circus act', and had no compassion while turning his opponent into a 'prop'.

^

Lot of truth here.

And the very last sentence of Duce's post encapsulates the reason for the resentment (not hate!) I have felt towards Ali.

He humiliated many of his opponents. Belittled them. "Great sportsman", ha.

There was no call to treat a good man like Frazier in the cruel way that he did.

He was an asshole, doesn't diminish his greatness in the sport but I always chuckle when his overzealous fans try to portray him as a God among sinners. Total prick, and LOL it was for the promotion.

[evrenb]

Keith Moon,

You're a great drummer, but John Bonham was more consistent.

Cassius Clay/Muhammad Ali had the benefit of Television and an intense Public Relations team.

Plus, a third-rate Brooklyn Lawyer turned ABC Broadcaster by the name of 'Howie the Shill' playing
up everything for him.

Don't be sucked in by the 'Ali Syndrome'. Where many found themselves, as they fell into the
'root for me because the other guy is no good trap'.

Jack Dempsey saved Boxing.

Muhammad Ali turned it into a 'circus act', and had no compassion while turning his opponent into a 'prop'.

^

Lot of truth here.

And the very last sentence of Duce's post encapsulates the reason for the resentment (not hate!) I have felt towards Ali.

He humiliated many of his opponents. Belittled them. "Great sportsman", ha.

There was no call to treat a good man like Frazier in the cruel way that he did.

He was an asshole, doesn't diminish his greatness in the sport but I always chuckle when his overzealous fans try to portray him as a God among sinners. Total prick, and LOL it was for the promotion.

Harsh

[ThatOne]

I don't think anybody is contending Muhammad Ali was/is a saint.

[ThatOne]

I don't think anybody is contending Muhammad Ali was/is a saint.

But, Sir, yes you do.

You overlook the bad, and try to justify those actions by saying,
'Look, look,,,,,,,,,,look how Muhammad Ali is so good.'

Lets be honest, Cassius Clay didn't even believe 90% of the things he said.

He kept suckering everybody, to see how much they would believe.

And to his amazement, the public and especially the media ate it up and even licked
the scraps of the floor as well.

I could just see Cassius back then, sitting in his Living Room and laughing to himself
and saying, "Can you believe the 'S**T these people believe".

Because I don't judge people by their worst moment(s)

[ThatOne]

Because you don't judge people by their worst moments.

By that statement, and using that theory, Adolph Hitler was a great guy.

He turned Germany around, and made the Deutschlanders proud of their heritage.

He took his country from the brink, and made that Nation into a World Power in a short period of time.

So, he made one little mistake............

Don't Judge, only look at the good he did.

I hardly would put denigrating your opponents in the same category as sending some 20,000,000 innocents to their death.

[keithmoonhangover]

Sometimes,

Words can cut deeper than a Sword.

'Hey Gorilla, where here in Manila.'

Whatever happened to that nice boy who was in Rome in 1960.

From what I've read, Jack Dempsey had worse words to say about Jack Johnson.

[keithmoonhangover]

'Porky' Dan Flynn was better than Lamar 'KO' Clark.


Did Jack Dempsey beat better fighters than Muhammad Ali.

No, I think Muhammad Ali would have been Jack's best opponent.

Muhammad Ali was a little better than Gene Tunney.

Do you think Willard was better than Liston?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'll go by what Ed 'Gunboat' Smith said.

"Jess Willard, who got a late start in the Pro Ranks {Age 29} would have taken Sonny
far into the Woods {late Rounds} and just mauled him to death. Liston is good, but
his punching power diminishes after 4-Rounds. You can say all you want about Jess,
but on their best days, I'd take Jess every time over Sonny."

Name three boxers that Dempsey beat that rate higher than Foreman, Frazier and Liston at heavyweight.

[keithmoonhangover]

Keith Moon,

Here's an easier one,,,,,,,,,,Jack Dempsey beats Sonny Liston, Joe Frazier and George Foreman....

Jack Demspey, being asked about Cassius Clay changing his name to Muhammad Ali.

Jack Dempsey.....'If it took me 12 Rounds to dispose of Floyd Patterson, who by the way couldn't
even bend over, I'd change my name to.'

Jack was the 'Best'.

Il Duce. I asked for fighters who Dempsey beat.

[keithmoonhangover]

Oh,,,,,,,,

You didn't explain the question properly.

* Jess Willard
* Luis Angel Firpo
* Bill Brennan
* Fred Fulton
* Carl Morris

On what planet do those guys rate above Liston, Foreman and Frazier?

[evrenb]

Because you don't judge people by their worst moments.

By that statement, and using that theory, Adolph Hitler was a great guy.

He turned Germany around, and made the Deutschlanders proud of their heritage.

He took his country from the brink, and made that Nation into a World Power in a short period of time.

So, he made one little mistake............

Don't Judge, only look at the good he did.

Nice touch Il Duce....at least you have admitted your dislike for Ali now...to consider Ali in the same way as Hitler is class...i can happily say this is my last response ever to you. The Hitler thing done it for me...you nasty nasty sorry excuse for.a human....

[gilgamesh]

Oh,,,,,,,,

You didn't explain the question properly.

* Jess Willard
* Luis Angel Firpo
* Bill Brennan
* Fred Fulton
* Carl Morris

On what planet do those guys rate above Liston, Foreman and Frazier?

Planet Duce.

[keithmoonhangover]

Oh,,,,,,,,

You didn't explain the question properly.

* Jess Willard
* Luis Angel Firpo
* Bill Brennan
* Fred Fulton
* Carl Morris

On what planet do those guys rate above Liston, Foreman and Frazier?

Planet Duce.

Even Planet Wine and Codeine ain't that good.

[p4p1]

Keith Moon,

Here's an easier one,,,,,,,,,,Jack Dempsey beats Sonny Liston, Joe Frazier and George Foreman....

Jack Demspey, being asked about Cassius Clay changing his name to Muhammad Ali.

Jack Dempsey.....'If it took me 12 Rounds to dispose of Floyd Patterson, who by the way couldn't
even bend over, I'd change my name to.'

Jack was the 'Best'.

C'mon seriously Dempsey would get destroyed by Foreman the same way Frazier did, Frazier vs Dempsey would be an amazing watch, and I think Liston would probably hammer Dempsey into an unrecognisable mess with his jab.

[ThatOne]

Because you don't judge people by their worst moments.

By that statement, and using that theory, Adolph Hitler was a great guy.

He turned Germany around, and made the Deutschlanders proud of their heritage.

He took his country from the brink, and made that Nation into a World Power in a short period of time.

So, he made one little mistake............

Don't Judge, only look at the good he did.

Nice touch Il Duce....at least you have admitted your dislike for Ali now...to consider Ali in the same way as Hitler is class...i can happily say this is my last response ever to you. The Hitler thing done it for me...you nasty nasty sorry excuse for.a human....

Ya think rousting innocent folks from their homes, putting them on a five hundred calorie a day diet, forcing them into slave labor, and then gassing them when their free labor is done is a bit worse than making a racial slur.

[ThatOne]

Keith Moon,

Here's an easier one,,,,,,,,,,Jack Dempsey beats Sonny Liston, Joe Frazier and George Foreman....

Jack Demspey, being asked about Cassius Clay changing his name to Muhammad Ali.

Jack Dempsey.....'If it took me 12 Rounds to dispose of Floyd Patterson, who by the way couldn't
even bend over, I'd change my name to.'

Jack was the 'Best'.

Jack couldn't beat the Patterson of his time over twenty rounds. In fact he lost both ten round bouts.

As Mao said " before you speak, investigate."

[ThatOne]

Let's see,

Again, just what top fighter did Cassius Clay beat, before he fought Sonny Liston........

What top fighter did George Foreman defeat before he fought Joe Frazier.....

What top fighter did Joe Frazier defeat before he won the 'vacant' Title over Buster Mathis.....

C.mon..........Jack Dempsey would have been their toughest opponent.......

What does that have to do with anything? If Liston was the GOAT's first "big' fight it makes the win even more spectacular. Same logic applies to Big George and Smokin Joe.

I like Dempsey . He seemed like a cool fella. But he lacks the resume of Muhammad Ali. He defeated seven IBHOF inductees, four Olympic Gold medalists, and three top ten all time greats. It doesn't get any better than that.

[ThatOne]

Let's see,

Again, just what top fighter did Cassius Clay beat, before he fought Sonny Liston........

What top fighter did George Foreman defeat before he fought Joe Frazier.....

What top fighter did Joe Frazier defeat before he won the 'vacant' Title over Buster Mathis.....

C.mon..........Jack Dempsey would have been their toughest opponent.......

What does that have to do with anything? If Liston was the GOAT's first "big" fight it makes the win even more spectacular. Same logic applies to Big George and Smokin Joe.

I like Dempsey . He seemed like a cool fella. But he lacks the resume of Muhammad Ali. He defeated seven IBHOF inductees, four Olympic Gold medalists, and three top ten all time greats. It doesn't get any better than that.

[man]

Because you don't judge people by their worst moments.

By that statement, and using that theory, Adolph Hitler was a great guy.

He turned Germany around, and made the Deutschlanders proud of their heritage.

He took his country from the brink, and made that Nation into a World Power in a short period of time.

So, he made one little mistake............

Don't Judge, only look at the good he did.

i am reconsidering my opinion about you.

[ThatOne]

Because you don't judge people by their worst moments.

By that statement, and using that theory, Adolph Hitler was a great guy.

He turned Germany around, and made the Deutschlanders proud of their heritage.

He took his country from the brink, and made that Nation into a World Power in a short period of time.

So, he made one little mistake............

Don't Judge, only look at the good he did.

i am reconsidering my opinion about you.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You are taking that response the wrong way.

That One was stating that he only looks at people for the Good' that they have done,
and he 'dismisses' the 'Bad'.

I look at the 'overall', and do not make adjustments in my opinion.

If you do or say bad things, then you're not a good person...........no matter how many good things you do....

I add up the good and bad a person does in his or life and make a conclusion based on that.

"If you do or say bad things, then you're not a good person."

By that criterion everyone is beyond redemption because everybody has done or said bad things.

This is how it works


Dissing Joe Frazier- lose one hundred points

Talking a suicidal person off a ledge-gain five hundred points

Being the first of his rivals to visit Ken Norton after his near fatal automobile accident- gain two hundred points

Contributing 100 K in 1970 dollars to keep a Jewish nursing home open- gain two hundred points. - since he was in the NOI add another three hundred points.

...

[keithmoonhangover]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K33CUXqPknM

Skip to 9:21.

Let me guess..... you don't believe it.

[ThatOne]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K33CUXqPknM

Skip to 9:21.

Let me guess..... you don't believe it.

If that's correct and I don't know if it is that's a lot worse than saying bad things about your opponent.

[man]

Because you don't judge people by their worst moments.

By that statement, and using that theory, Adolph Hitler was a great guy.

He turned Germany around, and made the Deutschlanders proud of their heritage.

He took his country from the brink, and made that Nation into a World Power in a short period of time.

So, he made one little mistake............

Don't Judge, only look at the good he did.

i am reconsidering my opinion about you.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You are taking that response the wrong way.

That One was stating that he only looks at people for the Good' that they have done,
and he 'dismisses' the 'Bad'.

I look at the 'overall', and do not make adjustments in my opinion.

If you do or say bad things, then you're not a good person...........no matter how many good things you do....

i was serious. your criticism of hitler makes me think you might
not be as fascist as i thought and, if i may, your name indicates.

on the subject discussed here. i do think dempsey is overrated in
general. giving him the no1 of all time seems totally over the top
for me. i definitely have at least louis, ali and holmes ahead of him.

i think you are carried away by your criticism of ali as a person.
what he did to frazier is unheard of and seemingly totally contradicts
the "biggest sportsman"-hype.

nevertheless i think the overall picture of ali would turn out a very
likable, even "good" person ... with a complex personality. his rant
especially against joe was definitely inspired by his true belief that
frazier was financed by white people and thus kind of betrayed the
struggle of his own people at that time. ali was totally into this back
then. he was genuine in his criticism but totally tasteless in the way
he expressed it. the gorilla stunt was beyond anything acceptable.

yet what he did in his career, despite the loss of three prime years,
tops dempsey's achievements very clearly in my view.

[p4p1]

I just think Jack Dempsey proved more from where he started in August 1914.

He was 'no' protected fighter.

Cassius Clay had the LSG calculating everything, and smartly avoided,
George Chuvalo and Eddie Machen in late-1963.

Plus, avoiding deserved rematches with Doug Jones and Henry Cooper.

Plus, his Handler's cutting a 'behind-the-door' deal with Sonny Liston in {contract signing in October 1963}.

This is no way to say that Cassius Clay wasn't one of the Best Heavyweights, just 'not' the Best Heavyweight.

Ya know he rematched one of those guys.