BoxRec

Il Duce wrote:Excellent point made 'That One',

But do you see were this went,,,,,,,,,Cassius Clay given a 'special provision'.

That made Cassius think that he was entitled to 'special treatment' just because he
was a good boxer.

He couldn't distinguish between 'right and wrong' at times, because of his limited education.

His mental aptitude score indicated 'Borderline Retardation'.

Did you ever see some of those 'easy' questions on the Military Exam.

He wasn't the first or last athlete to be coddled. Dexter Manley testified before a Senate Committee that he was functionally illiterate in college.

I do think he had an engaging personality and a spontaneous wit. My favorite is when a reporters says " you're a truculent young man" and Ali responds " If that's good I'm that too."

Effing classic and this gem:

The Guardian publishes today a list of some of the things Muhammad Ali has said over the years. My favourite, from 1960, when Cassius Clay was in a segregated restaurant:

On being told "We don't serve negroes"

I don't eat them, either. Just give me a cup of coffee and a hamburger.

Honestly Ol Doozy, if these are your words you are inept at rendering such judgement if not developmentally/or socially delayed yourself.

It is my business to know the tell tale signs of head injury, or Dev or social Delay.

You apparently can not tell the difference between a student who may well have been bored with the education system, and/or in an education system that was failing the student. It may be because his goals were set in his mind and the system had little to offer him, or that he was a student that simply was not getting what he truly needed within the system. He does not present as delayed in any way. I challenge you to find a certified social worker or better yet a neuro psychologist that differs with me based on what has been recorded about his life. And don't say the military assessors claimed this. I'm from a military family, I'm libertarian/slight right in my politics, and I know full well what was going on in that scenario. Young Cassius was not being "processed without prejudice" in that matter. There was quite a powerful lobby of influence tainting that process.

He was socially unusual from the templates that were used at that time to "determine" his status. So if you happen to find the "documents" that support this, it would actually be a pleasure to pick that apart and explain why such an error of conclusion could occur. I wold also imagine that this applies mostly to the social aspects.

The fighter known as Cassius Clay did not experience any form of DD, indeed he likely had/and has average or more likely above average intelligence. (Parkinson's tends to scramble the OUTGOING connections, but not the INCOMING lines...so he's likely just as sharp today as he ever/never was) You are such a fool to judge him that way. He hung with a crowd that had some different values, and he of course was highly marinated in the boxing community. And you might offer that he was even more marinated in the "rasslin" culture. Which would make him just a wee bit difficult to fit into their assessment template. Also, the need to paint him as delayed vs principled..was very important. (Yancey, for you I want you to know that anyone can judge that he had the "wrong" set of principles. I'm not getting into that discussion here, which is subjective at best). Ol' Doozer.... I suspect in your heart you know what I am saying is true. I think YOU need to stick with Cassius was a vile man.....that's less scandalous to the intellect than Cassius was a dev delayed man. He was no such thing. He showed clear signs of brilliance of intellect rather than deficit. In your mind the fact that he was not delayed could up your claim that he was vile....there...i've done some heavy lifting for you. He certainly had little difficulty grasping the rules of the game he dominated whether in or out of the ring.

Few people here need any more evidence of your bias, but this may be helpful to those on the fence.
Also, if you honestly believed this, I hope you will reconsider your own personal assessment on this. On this assumption...you are so very clearly wrong.

I have to say, to be a great boxer it is nearly imperative that one have a fair intellect. Truly Developmentally delayed examples of humanity would struggle with the quick thinking that must take place. It is after all truly the "Sweet Science". There is an exception to this rule, however these days it would be rather transparent if this was playing out. That example would a "boxing savant".

Hmm....

Klompton.....I think of Greb.....is that even possible that the world has experience such a personality via Harry? You would be the one to offer insight on that one I suppose. However he would have to have demonstrated some ineptness on the routine things of life....which does not sound like we have a match here. Forgive me but it just popped into my mind....lol.

Il Duce wrote:There you go Box Buzz,

A 'socio-liberal' blaming the system on the failure of someone.

Any good 'head doctor' knows that there is a wide-scale for evaluation intelligence.

Some peoples are just smarter than others, wouldn't you agree.

Define smart. Herbert Hoover probably had a higher I.Q. than Franklin Roosevelt.

Il Duce wrote:There you go Box Buzz,

A 'socio-liberal' blaming the system on the failure of someone.

Any good 'head doctor' knows that there is a wide-scale for evaluation intelligence.

Some peoples are just smarter than others, wouldn't you agree.

A....Not sure I fit that descriptor
B....Fair enough...there is some subjective nature to this
C....Yes of course.

With that said....I'm not sure it debunks my statement. It's pretty common knowledge that even today we are missing the boat on certain individuals. I sincerely just don't see the young Cassius in any way shape or form fitting the DD population. I will apologize regarding my snarkiness....but seriously, he aint what you claim him to be....and if you were simply repeating what others have said...then this is less of an issue. But once again I advise you to qualify your sources. I would like you understand that between Ali's IQ and EQ the man was never wanting for "potential" regardless of how he was labeled. Whether you believe it or you are simply repeating it....it is not credible.

And as far as people being responsible to a GREAT degree for their own successes and failures. I'm on board....and no one who knows me imagines me to be liberal in this area. With that said, the character Forest Gump was very successful. Both Ali and the fictional Gump earned there success. But Ali was not carrying any recognizable DD barriers to success through his life.

Giancarlo wrote:

Il Duce wrote: Cassius was 'Borderline Retarded'

At least 2 levels up from you then.

A true "bird brain" discoursing on Duce's intelligence level.

I've now seen it all.

ThatOne wrote:

Il Duce wrote:There you go Box Buzz,

A 'socio-liberal' blaming the system on the failure of someone.

Any good 'head doctor' knows that there is a wide-scale for evaluation intelligence.

Some peoples are just smarter than others, wouldn't you agree.

Define smart. Herbert Hoover probably had a higher I.Q. than Franklin Roosevelt.

But with a hell of a lot worse timing.

Il Duce wrote:Cassius even criticized Floyd for wearing an 'Everlast' T-Shirt.

Cassius Clay, "I bet that Everlast doesn't even have a Negro that works for them."

You will have to provide a citation for that one.

Il Duce wrote:

Il Duce wrote:Cassius even criticized Floyd for wearing an 'Everlast' T-Shirt.

Cassius Clay,
"I bet that Everlast doesn't even have a Negro that works for them."

Floyd Patterson,
"I don't understand why Cassius is so concerned about every aspect of my life. He
makes everything a 'color issue' with me. I'm just an athlete trying to perform
to the best of my abilities, with no strings attached."

Citation; Las Vegas Press Corps.

A google search produced this:



No results found for "I don't understand why Cassius is so concerned about every aspect of my life. He makes everything a 'color issue' with me. I'm just an athlete trying to perform to the best of my abilities, with no strings attached.".

Il Duce wrote:Cassius even criticized Floyd for wearing an 'Everlast' T-Shirt.

Cassius Clay,
"I bet that Everlast doesn't even have a Negro that works for them."

Floyd Patterson,
"I don't understand why Cassius is so concerned about every aspect of my life. He
makes everything a 'color issue' with me. I'm just an athlete trying to perform
to the best of my abilities, with no strings attached."

Is that why the GOAT autographs Everlast gloves ?

Il Duce wrote:

gilgamesh wrote:

Il Duce wrote:Mr. G-Man,

Cassius Clay didn't even know who The Beatles were in 1964, and you think he was deeply educated
in Southeast Asia Politics.

Cassius was 'Borderline Retarded', and I don't think he could even find Vietnam on a World Atlas, let
alone know or understand the machinations of the Vietnam Conflict.

Simply Put,,,,,, He just didn't want to be inducted into the U.S. Military, and have his good life disrupted.

I have no problem with that, only he couldn't admit it.

You calling Ali borderline retarded is pretty funny when he's pretty obviously significantly smarter than the way you present yourself on here.

Giancarlo, Oh so you have discussed the 'Vietnam Conflict' with Muhammad,

You say Ali was thick yet you can't even see which poster it is who said what.

Il Duce wrote:Mr. That One,

I can hear you now with all your caterwauling..........

Wearing your T-Shirt with a picture of Floyd Patterson eating a 'Pork Chop'.

Cassius Clay and his Band of Clowns, with by 'Cap'n Sam Saxon drove over to the
Thunderbird Hotel and Casino {where Floyd Patterson has set up his Training Camp}
and hung out in the Parking Lot with 'Pork Chop's tied around their necks.

The Assistant Manager of the Thunderibrd Hotel - Lee Alderson came out to the
Parking Lot and politely asked Cassius Clay and his Crew of Juveniles to either
behave like gentleman or leave.

Cassius immediately threw out a slew of outrageous remarks, calling the Thunderbird
Hotel 'a place for ignorant animals who don't like us N*****S'.

Cassius added, 'you only like Floyd Patterson because he's an Uncle Tom, otherwise
he'd being stay down the block.'

Lee Alderson told the Champion, 'that those remarks were un-called for, and that
the Thunderbird Hotel welcomes everyone.'

Cassius and his Group then dumped a box of 'Pork Chop's at the front entrance
of the Thnderbird Hotel with the name 'Deliver to Floyd Patterson' {a.k.a Uncle Tom}.


Cassisus Clay {23 years old and 10 months} going on..............'Age Seven'.

Il Duce, you are waging a losing war with adherents to the Cult of Clay/Ali...In their eyes he could do no wrong...I was around from the time I saw Clay fight in the amateurs in MSG 1959, saw him lose to
Frazier at MSG FOTC in 1971, seeing how he was brainwashed by the NOI, and followed their orders to resist serving his country, and spouting racial hatred against his opponents and "whitey" in general...Anyone that denies my claim is living in LaLaLand...He was a great fighter, but certainly
was a rabble rouser those days...Good show Il Duce...

Il Duce wrote:Yes I know who posted that statement,


Gilgamesh and Giancarlo are the same 'person'.

Put them both together and they have 'One' Brain.

Pretty strange that we're both logged in at the same time a lot. Being the same person that gets kinda tricky.

beaujack wrote:

Il Duce wrote:Mr. That One,

I can hear you now with all your caterwauling..........

Wearing your T-Shirt with a picture of Floyd Patterson eating a 'Pork Chop'.

Cassius Clay and his Band of Clowns, with by 'Cap'n Sam Saxon drove over to the
Thunderbird Hotel and Casino {where Floyd Patterson has set up his Training Camp}
and hung out in the Parking Lot with 'Pork Chop's tied around their necks.

The Assistant Manager of the Thunderibrd Hotel - Lee Alderson came out to the
Parking Lot and politely asked Cassius Clay and his Crew of Juveniles to either
behave like gentleman or leave.

Cassius immediately threw out a slew of outrageous remarks, calling the Thunderbird
Hotel 'a place for ignorant animals who don't like us N*****S'.

Cassius added, 'you only like Floyd Patterson because he's an Uncle Tom, otherwise
he'd being stay down the block.'

Lee Alderson told the Champion, 'that those remarks were un-called for, and that
the Thunderbird Hotel welcomes everyone.'

Cassius and his Group then dumped a box of 'Pork Chop's at the front entrance
of the Thnderbird Hotel with the name 'Deliver to Floyd Patterson' {a.k.a Uncle Tom}.


Cassisus Clay {23 years old and 10 months} going on..............'Age Seven'.

Il Duce, you are waging a losing war with adherents to the Cult of Clay/Ali...In their eyes he could do no wrong...I was around from the time I saw Clay fight in the amateurs in MSG 1959, saw him lose to
Frazier at MSG FOTC in 1971, seeing how he was brainwashed by the NOI, and followed their orders to resist serving his country, and spouting racial hatred against his opponents and "whitey" in general...Anyone that denies my claim is living in LaLaLand...He was a great fighter, but certainly
was a rabble rouser those days...Good show Il Duce...

You speak like that's a bad thing.

I'm surprised at beaujack rolling in the dirt with our resident retarded racist.

Il Duce wrote:Beau Jack,

You understand, while the 'minions' are lost in the Forest waiting for Muhammad to
come and save them from the all 'evil'.

They actually believe Cassius came up with all those pre-written scripts, all be himself.

The same people who worship Ali, would never let the Man and his Band of Merry-men inside
their homes for a lousy cup of Tea.

Yes he was a very good boxer, and talented,,,,,,,,but as a Human,,,,,,,,,he was 'Louisville Low Rent'.

I would have been honored to bask in his presence.

Giancarlo wrote:I'm surprised at beaujack rolling in the dirt with our resident retarded racist.

Giancarlo, what I've seen in boxing you cannot imagine, so do NOT speak for me...You are either a troll or a masochist...You are symbolic as to what is wrong with America today ! Why not call ME a racist and be done with ? I will match my past, my benevolence, my experience in boxing and life in general with you anytime and anyplace....So freakin easy to call someone a racist who has the brains not to agree with the likes of you...

beaujack wrote:

Giancarlo wrote:I'm surprised at beaujack rolling in the dirt with our resident retarded racist.

Giancarlo, what I've seen in boxing you cannot imagine, so do NOT speak for me...You are either a troll or a masochist...You are symbolic as to what is wrong with America today ! Why not call ME a racist and be done with ? I will match my past, my benevolence, my experience in boxing and life in general with you anytime and anyplace....So freakin easy to call someone a racist who has the brains not to agree with the likes of you...

I think giancarlo is from Australia.

beaujack wrote:

Giancarlo wrote:I'm surprised at beaujack rolling in the dirt with our resident retarded racist.

Giancarlo, what I've seen in boxing you cannot imagine, so do NOT speak for me...You are either a troll or a masochist...You are symbolic as to what is wrong with America today ! Why not call ME a racist and be done with ? I will match my past, my benevolence, my experience in boxing and life in general with you anytime and anyplace....So freakin easy to call someone a racist who has the brains not to agree with the likes of you...

'The likes of you..."

Yeah, the likes of me find old frauds like you amusing.

ThatOne wrote:

beaujack wrote:

Giancarlo wrote:I'm surprised at beaujack rolling in the dirt with our resident retarded racist.

Giancarlo, what I've seen in boxing you cannot imagine, so do NOT speak for me...You are either a troll or a masochist...You are symbolic as to what is wrong with America today ! Why not call ME a racist and be done with ? I will match my past, my benevolence, my experience in boxing and life in general with you anytime and anyplace....So freakin easy to call someone a racist who has the brains not to agree with the likes of you...

I think giancarlo is from Australia.

I hope that won't stop the old fellow telling me more about his 'benevolence'.

He really does sound like an awesome chap, if a little bit up himself.

If only the granner would return...

Il Duce wrote:

Giancarlo wrote:I'm surprised at beaujack rolling in the dirt with our resident retarded racist.

Hey, Midget G,

Why don't you start your own thread, on all the good that Cassius Clay said and did pre-April 1967.

Let's see who joins in........

We can sit and read all those 'good positive posts' over a bucket of 'Pork Chops'.

Remember what 'Young Cassius' called the Gentleman Floyd Patterson.

Hey, I thought you claimed your uncle wrote Ali's lines for him.

Don't tell me that was a lie too?

I have an opinion that Monzon was a great champion...I also have an opinion that he was likely a terrible human being by most standards, it's probably not all that controversial I suppose. Hope nobody is too upset with my "judgment" on that one.

But with that said...this is a boxing site....and the passing of judgment is an interesting pass time. Boxing is after all a rather violent sport, some say the sport itself is "bad" as people do get hurt, and bad things have been associated with it for some time. I don't happen to agree with that judgment at all.

To each their own.

I also have an opinion that as long as someone lives...the words forgiveness, learning, evolving, penance, love, atonement all still have meaning, and those options are there to allow each of us time to still get it right. (For Monzon his "moment" passed.)

For those of you who feel compelled to notify the rest of us the names of who is "getting it wrong" in life, and just how wrong they are "getting it", I assume your actions are based on how important "getting it right" is to you. So you are simply trying in your own way to remind us all to "do good like you do".

As for me, I feel more comfortable judging a convicted murderer than I probably should....so even in Monzon's case, I try to be humble, reminding myself occasionally that I really don't know what I don't know. In Ali's case, I am hearing that some simply want to agree with him when he admitted that "he's a bad man"....I know I have been a bad man on occasion myself. Maybe that's why I leave the bulk of the judging to those who must be better than me.

And I'm sure you know who you are.

So it may be worthwhile to leave such judgment to those who are expressing to the rest of us, just how good they are, by expressing just how bad they know others to be.

ThatOne wrote:If only the granner would return...

He'd be in his element.

One openly racist cheerleader supported by a couple of dinosaurs who yearn for the good old days when certain people knew their place.

That post where granberry was extolling the value of the various Jim Crow laws would play better in here these days than it did a couple of years back when he was at the peak of his rabble rousing.

The color that got my attention the most when granberry was around, was the generosity associated with the color orange.

Il Duce= ..... A granberry smoothie.

IMHO.