BoxRec

Bowe had a chance in 1993. He had a chin and could uppercut as well as any HW. Lewis held up in big fights pre-Steward quite well. Bruno and Ruddock come to mind. However, Lewis hadn't developed his jab and relied on counter-punching too much. His punching technique was raw, unpolished. Both had motivations to erase memory of the Olympics fight. After Steward took over Lewis, Bowe had no chance.

golden oldie wrote: ↑20 Dec 2017, 19:49

Kalan wrote: ↑20 Dec 2017, 03:34

golden oldie wrote: ↑19 Dec 2017, 22:18 I KNOW Lewis used to disappear from training camps whenever it suited him, chasing girls ( when he was single ) and having a tipple, and it used to drive Steward to distraction. I also KNOW the Maloney family have a reputation for hard drinking, but when Lewis went drinking with them ( Brandy, or Champagne ) on his limited occasions they couldn't live with the guy.

Like I said not EVERY fighter is an attention seeking knobhead Yank who has to smash up bars / clubs, or batter some poor sop in a car park whenever they go drinking

So I guess you're the resident expert on Lennox Lewis and know all about him.... At least you know all the gossip about Lewis that goes into the tabloids .... Funny how somebody who disappears from training camp whenever he pleases.... chasing after women.... have tipples.... getting drunk on Brandy and Champagne to the extent that the hard drinking Maloney family members can't live with him ..... and driving HOF trainer Emmanuel Steward up a wall with his antics.

Hmmm... Such an undisciplined individual not only becomes an Olympic Gold Medal winner and the best Heavyweight of the 1990's.... He easily outlasts Tyson, Holyfield, and Bowe at the top of the division... Nice going for such a slacker.

You also have friends who will interview Lewis at Olympic Stadium at your behest -- and ask him about a Yank who seems to know all about him....and get a reply from Lewis that you'll bet good money on is exactly what he'll say.

Yup ..... You ARE Walter Mitty.

Try to be original you imbecilic muppet. I have been pointing out your Walter Mitty characteristics for the last few months. I'll leave reading tabloids to the likes of you. I happen to know the Maloney family, and I have met Lewis a on a few occasions ( he was sober every time ) when he was a pro fighter, so wtf his AMATUER record has to do with anything, only a numpty like you might know.

Again I couldn't give a flying fuk about Tyson, Bowe, Holyfield or any other Yank Heavyweight. What I do know is Lewis though certainly no Hatton or Duran, was never a Hagler, Hopkins, or Mayweather either, always in top shape. He was NEVER one for going on long runs, or any other of those soppy regimes idiot fitness fanatic fighters waste their time on. Rather he was interested in improving his balance, technique and ring generalship. Which is why he went to Manny Steward in the first place. If you had either a brain, or could manage to get your thick stupid head out of your ass, you might be able to work out why Lewis referred to himself as a " pugilist specialist " as opposed to screaming how super fit and tough he was like most idiot Heavyweights.

As a matter of fact when he first came back over Frank Maloney sent him to the West Country under the tutelage of Tex Woodward. Tex expected his fighters to be up at the crack of dawn for a 5 mile run, Lewis would do a mile and say " screw this I'm going back to work in the gym, where it counts "

Needless to say that relationship didn't work out. As stated I coluld care less than pig shitt about the opinions of a numpty like you, who knows less than eff all about either Britain, or Lennox Lewis

Yup... You ARE Walter Mitty you lying little piece of varmit dung... You're out there in Zu Zu Land... You don't know Lewis or whether he said "screw this" to road work... You don't know if he ran 1 mile or 5 miles... He called himself a Pugilist Specialist because it's a cool name he made up for himself and he was a brash self promoter like Tyson and Ali... Lewis wouldn't give you the time of day... He'd carefully step over you while holding his nose so he didn't get any of you on his shoes.

Kalan wrote: ↑23 Dec 2017, 01:17 You ARE Walter Mitty you lying little piece of varmit dung... You're out there in Zu Zu Land...

Really?

golden oldie wrote: ↑20 Dec 2017, 19:49

Kalan wrote: ↑20 Dec 2017, 03:34

golden oldie wrote: ↑19 Dec 2017, 22:18 I KNOW Lewis used to disappear from training camps whenever it suited him, chasing girls ( when he was single ) and having a tipple, and it used to drive Steward to distraction. I also KNOW the Maloney family have a reputation for hard drinking, but when Lewis went drinking with them ( Brandy, or Champagne ) on his limited occasions they couldn't live with the guy.

Like I said not EVERY fighter is an attention seeking knobhead Yank who has to smash up bars / clubs, or batter some poor sop in a car park whenever they go drinking

So I guess you're the resident expert on Lennox Lewis and know all about him.... At least you know all the gossip about Lewis that goes into the tabloids .... Funny how somebody who disappears from training camp whenever he pleases.... chasing after women.... have tipples.... getting drunk on Brandy and Champagne to the extent that the hard drinking Maloney family members can't live with him ..... and driving HOF trainer Emmanuel Steward up a wall with his antics.

Hmmm... Such an undisciplined individual not only becomes an Olympic Gold Medal winner and the best Heavyweight of the 1990's.... He easily outlasts Tyson, Holyfield, and Bowe at the top of the division... Nice going for such a slacker.

You also have friends who will interview Lewis at Olympic Stadium at your behest -- and ask him about a Yank who seems to know all about him....and get a reply from Lewis that you'll bet good money on is exactly what he'll say.

Yup ..... You ARE Walter Mitty.

Try to be original you imbecilic muppet. I have been pointing out your Walter Mitty characteristics for the last few months. I'll leave reading tabloids to the likes of you. I happen to know the Maloney family, and I have met Lewis a on a few occasions ( he was sober every time ) when he was a pro fighter, so wtf his AMATUER record has to do with anything, only a numpty like you might know.

Again I couldn't give a flying fuk about Tyson, Bowe, Holyfield or any other Yank Heavyweight. What I do know is Lewis though certainly no Hatton or Duran, was never a Hagler, Hopkins, or Mayweather either, always in top shape. He was NEVER one for going on long runs, or any other of those soppy regimes idiot fitness fanatic fighters waste their time on. Rather he was interested in improving his balance, technique and ring generalship. Which is why he went to Manny Steward in the first place. If you had either a brain, or could manage to get your thick stupid head out of your ass, you might be able to work out why Lewis referred to himself as a " pugilist specialist " as opposed to screaming how super fit and tough he was like most idiot Heavyweights.

As a matter of fact when he first came back over Frank Maloney sent him to the West Country under the tutelage of Tex Woodward. Tex expected his fighters to be up at the crack of dawn for a 5 mile run, Lewis would do a mile and say " screw this I'm going back to work in the gym, where it counts "

Needless to say that relationship didn't work out. As stated I coluld care less than pig shitt about the opinions of a numpty like you, who knows less than eff all about either Britain, or Lennox Lewis.

You are wrong - Lennox trained extremely hard, only twice in his career he wasn't in top-shape (Rahman-I and Vitali fights), but he wasn't fat even in those fights - slightly overweight but not fat. Here what Stewart's long-time assistant trainer James Ali Bashir recalls from Lennox Lewis' training camps:

"Lennox Lewis has always been a self-motivated guy. You didn't have to do a lot to get him mentally involved. He was a true professional in every aspect of the word. I was there for many of those big fight camps. This guy was self-motivated and he was a hard worker. Lennox Lewis is the only heavyweight in recent memory that could rival the Klitschkos when it comes to work ethic. This guy was a workaholic. In fact, the only time him and Emanuel would have anything close to a dispute was when Manny was trying to stop him from doing so much work. He would try to propel some of the action and say, "Look, you need to take a break." And even when Manny would tell him to take a break, he would still find a way to do some work, even if it was just riding a bike up some mountains. He would always find a way to justify himself getting some work in. he is the only heavyweight in recent memory that could rival the Klitschkos, and it could have been insecurities, or whatever it was, it equaled work. Some guys work hard because they are insecure about their ability or they ability to take punishment, but whatever it was, at the end of the day, it equaled work ethic and Lennox Lewis was that kind of guy. And something else I know about Lennox Lewis too is if someone succeeded in making him nervous, they was gonna regret it in the ring. "

Thanks Boxing Writer .... For those well documented comments from James Ali Bashir .... which puts the lie to Old-N-Moldie's Walter Mitty personal relationship and inside knowledge of ATG Lennox Lewis's person work habits... Lewis was indeed one of the few Heavyweight Champions whose work ethic rivaled the Klitschko's.

He would never say "screw this" to a little road work... He was indeed a workaholic.

As for the road work... Big guys usually use alternative cardio work to keep their knees intact. Both Klitschkos replaced running with swimming in the last 10 years of their careers. Running cases to much pressure on your knees when you weigh in around 250 lbs. Lennox, according to Bashir, used a bicycle more. But it's still a cardio work anyway.

As soon as Bowe's weight jumped into the 17's post-Holyfield 1 he was past his prime. Bowe however did miss a trick avoiding Lewis pre-McCall. I think at that point he would have stopped Lewis. However once Stewart was on board I think Lewis would have beaten Bowe, even when Bowe was at his best.

Boxing Writer wrote: ↑23 Dec 2017, 14:51 As for the road work... Big guys usually use alternative cardio work to keep their knees intact. Both Klitschkos replaced running with swimming in the last 10 years of their careers. Running cases to much pressure on your knees when you weigh in around 250 lbs. Lennox, according to Bashir, used a bicycle more. But it's still a cardio work anyway

I was pretty big and never had knee problems... Howie Long was 6'5" X 275 and played for the Raiders as an ATG... He ran... He said his knees were really great and never bothered him... He was a Collegiate Heavyweight Boxing Champion who strongly considered turning pro boxer, but NFL Football comes with tremendous pension, benefits, and salary.

But a lot of big players had knee problems and I can see swimming as a great cardio alternative to roadwork... Joshua both swims and runs... I also think it's how fast you run... If you trudge along you impact the ground harder... If you do 6-minute miles you have more forward motion going and it's not as hard on the knees... Also the surface helps... You gotta run cross-country on grass and stay off streets and sidewalks... It's hard to find a great running area, but if you can sneak onto a golf course really early they work... Very large parks or running around recreational lakes can work.

Lennox himself retweeted that interview with JAB. I think he wouldn't do it if what Bashir said was untruth -

From Lennox Lewis' retirement speech:

"I’ve tried to demonstrate the importance of hard work and sacrifice in achieving goals. I have lived by the code that, if a job is worth doing, it should be done properly."

golden oldie wrote: ↑23 Dec 2017, 17:38
What Lewis actually trained for was yet another plum like Grant and Golota, this one by the name of Johnson. This was only ever meant as a warm up fight for the December 2003 fight against Vitali

Kirk Johnson wasn't a guy you sleep on... You get prepared... Kirk Johnson beat Larry Donald and knocked out Oleg Maskaev in very easily... Maskaev knocked Hasim Rahman out twice... Lewis trained like Hell for the rematch with Rahman and wouldn't overlook Johnson... Johnson had only one loss, which was a ridiculous DQ against John Ruiz.

golden oldie wrote: ↑23 Dec 2017, 22:04
You just get worse. So now Lewis was supposed to get concerned about Johnson because he had KO'd Maskaev. Whoopee doo, so had Oliver McCall who Lewis dealt with when finally this happened

McCall had a KO win over Lewis as well.... McCall had a mental breakdown when Steward left him to go with the guy who Ollie just knocked out... McCall loved Steward because the man knew so damned much... Steward improved McCall's attitude and enthusiasm 3000%... Gave him a lot of confidence.. When you own the Heavyweight Title, what coach wants to leave you for the champ you just knocked out in 2 rounds who you also dominated in the 1st round???

Anyway, Lewis underestimated opponents twice before ..... so it's unlikely that he would also underrate Johnson.

golden oldie wrote: ↑23 Dec 2017, 22:12

Boxing Writer wrote: ↑23 Dec 2017, 19:41 From Lennox Lewis' retirement speech:

"I’ve tried to demonstrate the importance of hard work and sacrifice in achieving goals. I have lived by the code that, if a job is worth doing, it should be done properly."

I have never claimed Lewis DIDN'T work hard IN THE GYM, particularly on improving his balance, technique, and ring generalship. I have never claimed he doesn't believe that a job is only worth doing properly if it is worth doing at all. What I have said is the guy was never a fanatical always in top shape type trainer like Hagler, Hopkins, or Mayweather.

Lewis wasn't in a top physical shape in 2 fight out of 44. And he wasn't in awful shape against Rahman (1st fight) and Vitali either. Slightly overweight, probably extremely overconfident, but definitely not fat like some people claim. Chagaev, Valuev, Liakhovich, Peter, Ruiz, Witherspoon, Tubbs and even legendary Larry Holmes all were in much worse phisycal shape in the most (or all) fights of their respective careers than Lennox was in Rahman-I and Vitali fights. I'm not claiming he worked as hard as Floyd in the gym, but he was definitely a hardworker.

Lewis averaged over 250 for his last 6 fights or so...

Like George Foreman, Larry Holmes, and many older Heavyweights -- many come to the conclusion that bigger is better... There is no doubt that extra weight helps you absorb punches better... You're able to bully and boss normal sized Heavyweights around the ring and drive right through them with the extra poundage... I've heard many Heavyweights say they feel much stronger at a heavier weight and talk right back to their trainer.

You need really good skills to go with the added size and bulk -- but James Toney would never have been able to take a Heavyweight's punch coming in at 160... Toney was a great Middleweight Champion but you can't let opponents throw you around physically... James overdid the fat thing... If he stayed around 220 like he was for Holyfield he would have made a good Heavyweight and maybe won a World Title... Being a Heavyweight doesn't give you license to eat... If you can't sprint and jump and climb rope and do pullups and pushups and various athletic things like regular, the weight is a hindrance... But if you can do them as well the weight makes you immovable ... like an offensive lineman.

I guarantee to that Big Baby Miller was pushing huge Gerald Washington around the ring with ease after a few rounds because he was so much bigger and heavier... Pushing is one of those fouls that is never called so big, fat guys take advantage... Miller could take the incoming like it was rain drops -- so it was a matter of time to get GW out of there.

Most trainers and coaches hate the weight and bitch like Hell... That's a big reason you get it off... But maybe you take a fight on short notice 9 days out... You're well over 250 but it's a damned good offer... Normally you wouldn't start training camp unless you're in the 230's... But you head for the gym and try to line up sparring for the next few days... To your surprise you can push and boss your spar mates around the ring much easier with the added weight and the incoming slides off easier... You destroy your opponent.. That's seeds the notion you should fight heavier... As a Heavyweight you don't have to make weight.... Why not take as much advantage of that if it doesn't get out of control?

Its strange. Bowe looked less than stellar in 1991 against remnants of Tony Tubbs. Earlier that year there was a heart flutter moment in his bout with Tyrell Biggs. Both bouts were enough to make me wonder about Bowe, despite the improving package. Lewis for his part looked to wade in and slug, pre-Steward. Then again, he gave us a glimpse of how far up he was able to pull those early career socks when he seemingly sharp-shooted Razor Ruddock into oblivion. He looked rounded, fluid and properly studied in that one, about the time the world was awed with Bowe and his title-winning inside game with Holyfield.

Sure, Bowe was great inside, but I submit he was all of that with a smaller, less powerful foe, when trading in close quarters. How would he have fared dancing to that tune with Lewis? What would happen if Lewsi managed to study well for Riddick as he had for Donovan?

I got the impression, back then, that Lenny was going backwards, post-Ruddock, up to when McCall waxed him. Strangely, Bowe too seemed to be going backwards, post-92. He blew the ghost of Dokes away in one and dealt properly with lottery ticket winner Jesse Ferguson, despite being in less than stellar condition.

Holyfield defeated Bowe with his footwork in the rematch. My opinion. The extra dozen pounds helped his game as well.

If they had met in 1992, I would have put my dime on Lewis. Why? I think he had better focus than Riddick. I also think he used his legs better and had the advantage of having a certain extra measure of self belief, given their Olympic episode. And I think, as an earlier posted had said, it ends within 3 rounds.

The later variants of these two guys?

Lewis looked to be at his pinnacle about 1999-2000, or just dominant enough to lose something going into 2001, where his chin became a factor. Again, he had that capacity to lower or pull up his game socks, based on focus and as we saw against Hasim Rahman, over confidence.

Bowe? He became a plodder, when he wasn't gorging or dieting himself into a shell of what he had once been.

I miss them both.

I don't miss Bowe.... He didn't give fans the fights they wanted.... He was a ducker of the worst order.

What's wrong with fighting punchers like Lewis, Tyson, McCall, Mercer, Tua, or even Ruddock???

Kalan wrote: ↑25 Dec 2017, 21:40 I don't miss Bowe.... He didn't give fans the fights they wanted.... He was a ducker of the worst order.

What's wrong with fighting punchers like Lewis, Tyson, McCall, Mercer, Tua, or even Ruddock???

I somewhat agree with you. Your question holds MUCH overlooked merit. Bowe seemed to avoid punchers whereas Lewis didn't. And yet, I assert, Bowe would have done well, at his boxing best, with a Ruddock, a Tua and a Morrison, if he fought the way he could (and should)....and that EXCLUDES the inside stuff. Against Tyson, I think that heart flutter gut warning I experienced when Biggs momentarily hurt Bowe, would turn into a call for Paramedics. I think 95-96 Tyson would need huge numbers to justify the risk, and I'd bet more than a dime on Tyson in that one. With Lewis, you already know the amount I'd bet....and my thoughts on the winner.

Ned Merrill wrote: ↑26 Dec 2017, 13:14

Kalan wrote: ↑25 Dec 2017, 21:40 I don't miss Bowe.... He didn't give fans the fights they wanted.... He was a ducker of the worst order.

What's wrong with fighting punchers like Lewis, Tyson, McCall, Mercer, Tua, or even Ruddock???

I somewhat agree with you. Your question holds MUCH overlooked merit. Bowe seemed to avoid punchers whereas Lewis didn't. And yet, I assert, Bowe would have done well, at his boxing best, with a Ruddock, a Tua and a Morrison, if he fought the way he could (and should)....and that EXCLUDES the inside stuff. Against Tyson, I think that heart flutter gut warning I experienced when Biggs momentarily hurt Bowe, would turn into a call for Paramedics. I think 95-96 Tyson would need huge numbers to justify the risk, and I'd bet more than a dime on Tyson in that one. With Lewis, you already know the amount I'd bet....and my thoughts on the winner.

Who said anything about Morrison??? .... Bowe probably beats him, but I didn't mention him... But anybody with any ability who could punch, Bowe ducked them... He was one of easiest punched Heavyweights out there as even Golota proved.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑20 Dec 2017, 11:54 Bowe was not chicken.
Bowe signed to fight Lewis for the title before Lewis fought McCall. Lewis lost to McCall so the deal fell through.

Bowe also signed on to fight in a four man box off with Holyfield, Lewis & Ruddock, with the last 2 men standing fighting each other & we all know what happened.

Bowe signing stuff means diddly in the grand scheme of things.

Kalan wrote: ↑27 Dec 2017, 22:13

Ned Merrill wrote: ↑26 Dec 2017, 13:14

Kalan wrote: ↑25 Dec 2017, 21:40 I don't miss Bowe.... He didn't give fans the fights they wanted.... He was a ducker of the worst order.

What's wrong with fighting punchers like Lewis, Tyson, McCall, Mercer, Tua, or even Ruddock???

I somewhat agree with you. Your question holds MUCH overlooked merit. Bowe seemed to avoid punchers whereas Lewis didn't. And yet, I assert, Bowe would have done well, at his boxing best, with a Ruddock, a Tua and a Morrison, if he fought the way he could (and should)....and that EXCLUDES the inside stuff. Against Tyson, I think that heart flutter gut warning I experienced when Biggs momentarily hurt Bowe, would turn into a call for Paramedics. I think 95-96 Tyson would need huge numbers to justify the risk, and I'd bet more than a dime on Tyson in that one. With Lewis, you already know the amount I'd bet....and my thoughts on the winner.

Who said anything about Morrison??? .... Bowe probably beats him, but I didn't mention him... But anybody with any ability who could punch, Bowe ducked them... He was one of easiest punched Heavyweights out there as even Golota proved.

I said something about Morrison. It's as simple as that.

Don't... He was a chin looking for nap time...

Ned Merrill wrote: ↑26 Dec 2017, 13:14

Kalan wrote: ↑25 Dec 2017, 21:40 I don't miss Bowe.... He didn't give fans the fights they wanted.... He was a ducker of the worst order.

What's wrong with fighting punchers like Lewis, Tyson, McCall, Mercer, Tua, or even Ruddock???

I somewhat agree with you. Your question holds MUCH overlooked merit. Bowe seemed to avoid punchers whereas Lewis didn't. And yet, I assert, Bowe would have done well, at his boxing best, with a Ruddock, a Tua and a Morrison, if he fought the way he could (and should)....and that EXCLUDES the inside stuff. Against Tyson, I think that heart flutter gut warning I experienced when Biggs momentarily hurt Bowe, would turn into a call for Paramedics. I think 95-96 Tyson would need huge numbers to justify the risk, and I'd bet more than a dime on Tyson in that one. With Lewis, you already know the amount I'd bet....and my thoughts on the winner.

Bowe would easily have beaten Ruddock, Tua & Morrison if he put his mind to it.

To be fair, he was never really in the reckoning to fight Tua or Morrison as he was done by '96. but he could have fought Ruddock, but preferred the so-called easier option of fighting Pierre Coetzer.

Kalan wrote: ↑04 Dec 2017, 00:31 Bowe wasn't that powerful... He was a fouling brawler which made him look a little more formidable to the average fan than he actually was... Holyfield came into their first fight very weak and underweight... What was he thinking? ... But he adjusted his weight for the rematch and won.

Bowe never beat a good fighter other than Holyfield and he avoided all the big punchers because he was easy to hit.. Tua, Tyson, Ruddock, Mercer, McCall, basically he avoided everyone on Lennox's list except Golota---who had weak power and couldn't punch his size or weight.

Lewis murders Bowe any time they would have met.

Looked average against everyone else.

Syntax Error wrote: ↑03 Jan 2018, 07:09

Ned Merrill wrote: ↑26 Dec 2017, 13:14

Kalan wrote: ↑25 Dec 2017, 21:40 I don't miss Bowe.... He didn't give fans the fights they wanted.... He was a ducker of the worst order.

What's wrong with fighting punchers like Lewis, Tyson, McCall, Mercer, Tua, or even Ruddock???

I somewhat agree with you. Your question holds MUCH overlooked merit. Bowe seemed to avoid punchers whereas Lewis didn't. And yet, I assert, Bowe would have done well, at his boxing best, with a Ruddock, a Tua and a Morrison, if he fought the way he could (and should)....and that EXCLUDES the inside stuff. Against Tyson, I think that heart flutter gut warning I experienced when Biggs momentarily hurt Bowe, would turn into a call for Paramedics. I think 95-96 Tyson would need huge numbers to justify the risk, and I'd bet more than a dime on Tyson in that one. With Lewis, you already know the amount I'd bet....and my thoughts on the winner.

Bowe would easily have beaten Ruddock, Tua & Morrison if he put his mind to it.

To be fair, he was never really in the reckoning to fight Tua or Morrison as he was done by '96. but he could have fought Ruddock, but preferred the so-called easier option of fighting Pierre Coetzer.

The only heavy he ever looked good against was Holyfield. How was he supposed to beat all those guys?

MrGuy wrote: ↑03 Jan 2018, 14:22

Syntax Error wrote: ↑03 Jan 2018, 07:09

Ned Merrill wrote: ↑26 Dec 2017, 13:14

I somewhat agree with you. Your question holds MUCH overlooked merit. Bowe seemed to avoid punchers whereas Lewis didn't. And yet, I assert, Bowe would have done well, at his boxing best, with a Ruddock, a Tua and a Morrison, if he fought the way he could (and should)....and that EXCLUDES the inside stuff. Against Tyson, I think that heart flutter gut warning I experienced when Biggs momentarily hurt Bowe, would turn into a call for Paramedics. I think 95-96 Tyson would need huge numbers to justify the risk, and I'd bet more than a dime on Tyson in that one. With Lewis, you already know the amount I'd bet....and my thoughts on the winner.

Bowe would easily have beaten Ruddock, Tua & Morrison if he put his mind to it.

To be fair, he was never really in the reckoning to fight Tua or Morrison as he was done by '96. but he could have fought Ruddock, but preferred the so-called easier option of fighting Pierre Coetzer.

The only heavy he ever looked good against was Holyfield. How was he supposed to beat all those guys?

Holyfield is better than all those guys.

I'm no apologist for Riddick Bowe, but he was better than the one dimensional Razor Ruddock & David Tua.

Morrison was a better skilled than those two, but I don't think he was in Bowe's class.

Bowe had faults; namely being easy to hit, but he was tough & he could fight through adversity.