BoxRec

I would probably have Sugar Ray Leonard as an all time top five welterweight, and that is pretty good.

I would have Pep and Duran top tier. Pep's only loss in his first 136 fights was to Sammy Angott, who was world lightweight champion at the time, and some who were there thought that Pep deserved the decision.

Leonard should be without question in Level 1. If you simply objectively look at his career, there is little doubt. Again, he had 4 wins over opponents in the Top 5 Levels. (Top 50 Fighters)
The entire Level 2 only has four wins.

At first glance you can look at Moore's career and see a fair amount of losses. However, he had so many win big wins that outweighs the losses he has to belong.
Almost every Level has one or two guys that could go up and one or two that could go down.
Monzon and/or Louis could go down to Level 2 and Duran and/or Pep could go up to level 2.

Ambling Alp II wrote:Leonard should be without question in Level 1. If you simply objectively look at his career, there is little doubt. Again, he had 4 wins over opponents in the Top 5 Levels. (Top 50 Fighters)
The entire Level 2 only has four wins.

At first glance you can look at Moore's career and see a fair amount of losses. However, he had so many win big wins that outweighs the losses he has to belong.
Almost every Level has one or two guys that could go up and one or two that could go down.
Monzon and/or Louis could go down to Level 2 and Duran and/or Pep could go up to level 2.

I have a feeling that you are a Leonard fan.

Scypion wrote:

Ambling Alp II wrote:Leonard should be without question in Level 1. If you simply objectively look at his career, there is little doubt. Again, he had 4 wins over opponents in the Top 5 Levels. (Top 50 Fighters)
The entire Level 2 only has four wins.

At first glance you can look at Moore's career and see a fair amount of losses. However, he had so many win big wins that outweighs the losses he has to belong.
Almost every Level has one or two guys that could go up and one or two that could go down.
Monzon and/or Louis could go down to Level 2 and Duran and/or Pep could go up to level 2.

I have a feeling that you are a Leonard fan.

If you concentrate only on what he did in the ring it's hard not to be.

Scypion wrote:

Ambling Alp II wrote:Leonard should be without question in Level 1. If you simply objectively look at his career, there is little doubt. Again, he had 4 wins over opponents in the Top 5 Levels. (Top 50 Fighters)
The entire Level 2 only has four wins.

At first glance you can look at Moore's career and see a fair amount of losses. However, he had so many win big wins that outweighs the losses he has to belong.
Almost every Level has one or two guys that could go up and one or two that could go down.
Monzon and/or Louis could go down to Level 2 and Duran and/or Pep could go up to level 2.

I have a feeling that you are a Leonard fan.

I am a fan of his. He is no saint, but seemed like a good guy. He certainly was not a despicable human being like people like Monzon, Duran, and LaMotta. He was a clean fighter, did not badmouth his opponents, fought the best and never quit.

There are guys listed that liked, did not like, and really have no opinion on. (If you want to know specifically who, just ask and I will tell you.) Often there are guys who I liked that are lower than those I didn't.

If you don't think Leonard should be so high, give some concrete reasons. Who that wasn't in level 1 had major wins that outweighed negatives like he did?

Ambling Alp II wrote:

Scypion wrote:

Ambling Alp II wrote:Leonard should be without question in Level 1. If you simply objectively look at his career, there is little doubt. Again, he had 4 wins over opponents in the Top 5 Levels. (Top 50 Fighters)
The entire Level 2 only has four wins.

At first glance you can look at Moore's career and see a fair amount of losses. However, he had so many win big wins that outweighs the losses he has to belong.
Almost every Level has one or two guys that could go up and one or two that could go down.
Monzon and/or Louis could go down to Level 2 and Duran and/or Pep could go up to level 2.

I have a feeling that you are a Leonard fan.

I am a fan of his. He is no saint, but seemed like a good guy. He certainly was not a despicable human being like people like Monzon, Duran, and LaMotta. He was a clean fighter, did not badmouth his opponents, fought the best and never quit.

There are guys listed that liked, did not like, and really have no opinion on. (If you want to know specifically who, just ask and I will tell you.) Often there are guys who I liked that are lower than those I didn't.

If you don't think Leonard should be so high, give some concrete reasons. Who that wasn't in level 1 had major wins that outweighed negatives like he did?

I got concrete reasons why the great Sugar Ray Leonard is not top ten or level 1, but you don't want none of what I got to say. Leonard in level 1? Please!

Roberto Duran vs All Time greats Leonard, Hearns, Hagler, Benitez 1 Win 5 Losses
Sugar Ray Leonard vs All Time Greats. Duran, Hearns, Hagler, Benitez 5 Wins 1 Loss I draw.

Seamus wrote:Roberto Duran vs All Time greats Leonard, Hearns, Hagler, Benitez 1 Win 5 Losses
Sugar Ray Leonard vs All Time Greats. Duran, Hearns, Hagler, Benitez 5 Wins 1 Loss I draw.

Hector Camacho: 3 Wins 0 losses vs Duran and Leonard.

And of course you know they were way,way past it when Camacho beat them.
Except for Leonard's third fight with Duran, Leonard was not beating guys who were way past it.

Do you have anything serious?

Scypion wrote:

Seamus wrote:Roberto Duran vs All Time greats Leonard, Hearns, Hagler, Benitez 1 Win 5 Losses
Sugar Ray Leonard vs All Time Greats. Duran, Hearns, Hagler, Benitez 5 Wins 1 Loss I draw.

Hector Camacho: 3 Wins 0 losses vs Duran and Leonard.

That is a good one LOL

But, anyway to put the laughter aside, Let us look at the facts:

By 1972, the great Roberto Duran was already the world lightweight champion. The greats Marvin Hagler, Wilfred Benitez, Sugar Ray Leonard and Thomas Hearns were not even pro fighters yet?

By 1978, Duran was already considered an all time great when he defeated long time nemesis Eseban De Jesus in their rubber match. He CLEANED UP THE LIGHTWEIGHT DIVISION like nobody ever since. Hagler, Hearns and Leonard were not even champions yet. Benitez was not a force even though he already won a title at 17. Benitez was supposed to fight Duran in April '78. What happened? Who did not want the fight? I don't think it was Duran.

By 1989, Duran, at his 22nd year as a pro, wins a piece of the middleweight title? Hearns and Leonard were washed up in their 30s just like Duran was. Benitez and Hagler were out of the boxing game.

Duran had to go up to fight those guys in their weight classes, even though he was not in his prime and in his 30s when these guys were still younger in their 20s and stronger than he.

Duran whupped Leonard in the biggest night outside the heavyweights. Jumping two weight classifications. Did Leonard ever done that? Was Hagler in his prime when he fought him? NUFF SAID.

THE GREATNESS OF THE GREAT ROBERTO DURAN IS UNQUESTIONABLE...PUT HIM IN LEVEL ONE WHERE HE BELONGS!!!