What would have been the outcome if the fight was't stopped?

[TopGun]

Let's just say I'm looking forward to the odds on Froch for the rematch.

Nice to see you Riddick, opinion changed on George now?

Yes it has, and I did pay Groves his due on another thread. He fought great on Saturday, but I still don't think he can finish the fight in a rematch.

Apology accepted Riddick but you still don't know shit about boxing

[keithmoonhangover]

Keith,

I've voted Froch would have won purely based on how the judged were apparently intepreting the fight.

I think Groves wasn't THAT badly hurt - buzzed a bit yes, fatiguing yes.... but then I do remember Degale coming back in the middle /late rounds and Groves having a good 11th/12th - so maybe he would have got second wind.

I think Groves was made to look more hurt than he was cause of the way Froch comes in, it makes you more off balance, plus the head lock from Foster couldn't have helped.... so part of the reason why he aparantly staggered back as he complained. Groves had won (IMO) the first minute of the 9th round (those that think I am foolish then watch it again... its a clear Groves round for the first minute - clear). He was actually having his best round in a couple of rounds. He got tagged, hurt a bit and then way prematurely stopped.

Anyway, enough about the stoppage.... Had Groves gone down he would have been behind on the cards, had he not gone down the fight would have been level. Considering Groves dominated the fight and was only 1 round up on the cards.... he would have needed to have KO'd Froch to get the draw in the last few rounds... and that wasn't happening.

For me - Had Froch won all the other rounds 10-9 - Groves would be champion...... but that wasn't what the judges were seeing - so the "obvious" outcome was that Froch was going to win as I don't think Groves would have KO'd him.

Mate, his legs were gone and Froch was landing bomb after bomb. There was a minute and a half left in the round. When Groves protests the stoppage, his legs are still gone - he sags to the middle rope. He might have been buzzed by Degale, but Froch is not Degale. He is a fighter renowned for finishing strong.

Regardless, Froch won the fight and he'll win a rematch.

[Horse]

McCrory's description of the stoppage was a disgrace. "Ref grabbed him in a headlock...."...............don't get me wrong it was a bit premature but that's bollocks!

It's an accurate description in my opinion.

[mickey1975]

Does anyone know the PPV buy rate? I can't imagine it was particularly high.

They should make any rematch on regular SKY, it's very cynical to have it PPV because demand for it will far out-strip demand for the original card.

I disagree. I reckon it was higher than Froch-Kessler 2.

I agree with Columbo. I reckon it will have done very well. Plenty of pubs had it on round my way and loads were talking about it.

[Matt Teague]

There was a right hand in particular that landed high of Groves's head and that really seemed to make his legs go to rubber. Whether you think Groves's was robbed, you have to admit that Froch is one tough bastard as he got hit with some HUGE shots that I think would of knocked most other fighters out cold.

Well said, yes the fight was stopped early, but we will never know the true outcome, however I've not known any fighters who have the same durability other than Chris eubank.
Absolute machine is froch

[orbtastic]

Does anyone know the PPV buy rate? I can't imagine it was particularly high.

They should make any rematch on regular SKY, it's very cynical to have it PPV because demand for it will far out-strip demand for the original card.

I disagree. I reckon it was higher than Froch-Kessler 2.

I agree with Columbo. I reckon it will have done very well. Plenty of pubs had it on round my way and loads were talking about it.

What was the buy-rate for Kessler II?

I know there's always one or two on here who have a bee in their bonnet about the figures not being real or accurate but by particularly high I mean over half a million i.e. Hatton/Haye type figures.

[fightscorecollector]

i think after the 9th it would have been 6-3 to Groves.

I also think that Groves would have won 1 of the last 3 rounds to really cement his victory...115-112

BUT

The way the judges cards were, Groves would have ended up probably losing on a very terrible points decision. After 8 rounds Groves was clearly ahead. For 2 of the judges to have this 4-4 in rounds shows they have to be demoted and not let near a title fight for at least a year.

[stujones]

Keith,

I've voted Froch would have won purely based on how the judged were apparently intepreting the fight.

I think Groves wasn't THAT badly hurt - buzzed a bit yes, fatiguing yes.... but then I do remember Degale coming back in the middle /late rounds and Groves having a good 11th/12th - so maybe he would have got second wind.

I think Groves was made to look more hurt than he was cause of the way Froch comes in, it makes you more off balance, plus the head lock from Foster couldn't have helped.... so part of the reason why he aparantly staggered back as he complained. Groves had won (IMO) the first minute of the 9th round (those that think I am foolish then watch it again... its a clear Groves round for the first minute - clear). He was actually having his best round in a couple of rounds. He got tagged, hurt a bit and then way prematurely stopped.

Anyway, enough about the stoppage.... Had Groves gone down he would have been behind on the cards, had he not gone down the fight would have been level. Considering Groves dominated the fight and was only 1 round up on the cards.... he would have needed to have KO'd Froch to get the draw in the last few rounds... and that wasn't happening.

For me - Had Froch won all the other rounds 10-9 - Groves would be champion...... but that wasn't what the judges were seeing - so the "obvious" outcome was that Froch was going to win as I don't think Groves would have KO'd him.

Mate, his legs were gone and Froch was landing bomb after bomb. There was a minute and a half left in the round. When Groves protests the stoppage, his legs are still gone - he sags to the middle rope. He might have been buzzed by Degale, but Froch is not Degale. He is a fighter renowned for finishing strong.

Regardless, Froch won the fight and he'll win a rematch.

I disagree with some of that.... Groves was staggering cannot say that isn't the case - personally I think it was more of a balance thing though a combination of Froch on the charge, the ref in the way and Groves in the mind set of "shit I am hurt, better run to recover" pushed him more off balance.... but anyway that is by the by.

Froch landing bomb after bomb? Nah.... he landed a couple of nice shots, but Groves was blocking most of them - the only reason Froch had a "free shot" was because of Foster's position in trying to stop the fight... instead of getting between the fighters he tries to pull Groves (a tiring, hurt, Groves yes) away and this makes it all the more dramatic and makes Groves look more hurt than he is. Yes, Groves might be making excuses, but did he sound like a fighter who was hurt in the post fight interview - his take on the situation and how his legs may have appeared more jelly like made perfect sense to me. Yes he had a few minutes to recover and re-think his thoughts, but his protesting didn't seem to be of a man who had NOTHING left.

I've read the sublime to the rediculous on the fight and the stoppage on this forum. All from Groves was reeling the entire round, Froch threw 30 shots in the last 30 seconds with 10 unanswered head shots and, on the other side - Groves hurt Froch 10 seconds before stoppage.... none of which is accurate IMO.

It was an early stoppage irrespective of what would have happened.

[keithmoonhangover]

Keith,

I've voted Froch would have won purely based on how the judged were apparently intepreting the fight.

I think Groves wasn't THAT badly hurt - buzzed a bit yes, fatiguing yes.... but then I do remember Degale coming back in the middle /late rounds and Groves having a good 11th/12th - so maybe he would have got second wind.

I think Groves was made to look more hurt than he was cause of the way Froch comes in, it makes you more off balance, plus the head lock from Foster couldn't have helped.... so part of the reason why he aparantly staggered back as he complained. Groves had won (IMO) the first minute of the 9th round (those that think I am foolish then watch it again... its a clear Groves round for the first minute - clear). He was actually having his best round in a couple of rounds. He got tagged, hurt a bit and then way prematurely stopped.

Anyway, enough about the stoppage.... Had Groves gone down he would have been behind on the cards, had he not gone down the fight would have been level. Considering Groves dominated the fight and was only 1 round up on the cards.... he would have needed to have KO'd Froch to get the draw in the last few rounds... and that wasn't happening.

For me - Had Froch won all the other rounds 10-9 - Groves would be champion...... but that wasn't what the judges were seeing - so the "obvious" outcome was that Froch was going to win as I don't think Groves would have KO'd him.

Mate, his legs were gone and Froch was landing bomb after bomb. There was a minute and a half left in the round. When Groves protests the stoppage, his legs are still gone - he sags to the middle rope. He might have been buzzed by Degale, but Froch is not Degale. He is a fighter renowned for finishing strong.

Regardless, Froch won the fight and he'll win a rematch.

I disagree with some of that.... Groves was staggering cannot say that isn't the case - personally I think it was more of a balance thing though a combination of Froch on the charge, the ref in the way and Groves in the mind set of "poo I am hurt, better run to recover" pushed him more off balance.... but anyway that is by the by.

Froch landing bomb after bomb? Nah.... he landed a couple of nice shots, but Groves was blocking most of them - the only reason Froch had a "free shot" was because of Foster's position in trying to stop the fight... instead of getting between the fighters he tries to pull Groves (a tiring, hurt, Groves yes) away and this makes it all the more dramatic and makes Groves look more hurt than he is. Yes, Groves might be making excuses, but did he sound like a fighter who was hurt in the post fight interview - his take on the situation and how his legs may have appeared more jelly like made perfect sense to me. Yes he had a few minutes to recover and re-think his thoughts, but his protesting didn't seem to be of a man who had NOTHING left.

I've read the sublime to the rediculous on the fight and the stoppage on this forum. All from Groves was reeling the entire round, Froch threw 30 shots in the last 30 seconds with 10 unanswered head shots and, on the other side - Groves hurt Froch 10 seconds before stoppage.... none of which is accurate IMO.

It was an early stoppage irrespective of what would have happened.

I agree with some of what you said mate. Although I do think Groves was turning away when the ref stopped it. One thing I think is always misleading in any fights where it happens, is when a fighter protests the stoppage. Being in good enough shape to protest a fight and being good enough shape to defend yourself against full blooded shots to the head, are two different things. A minute and a half left to go in the round is a long time, especially in the condition Groves appeared to be in. Froch is a great finisher and is strong late in the fight. I just watched the last round again three more times. 30 seconds after the stoppage and Grove's balance is still off. We'll never know, but I just cannot see Groves surviving.

[stujones]

I agree with some of what you said mate. Although I do think Groves was turning away when the ref stopped it. One thing I think is always misleading in any fights where it happens, is when a fighter protests the stoppage. Being in good enough shape to protest a fight and being good enough shape to defend yourself against full blooded shots to the head, are two different things. A minute and a half left to go in the round is a long time, especially in the condition Groves appeared to be in. Froch is a great finisher and is strong late in the fight. I just watched the last round again three more times. 30 seconds after the stoppage and Grove's balance is still off. We'll never know, but I just cannot see Groves surviving.

Agree with all of that - what you say is true. Yes, Lennox Lewis was protesting vs McCall - but legs were dipping and eyes looking glazed. I don't think Groves was that bad, but I agree massive difference between protesting and being in a position to.

I did note John McDonald (probably on Howard Foster's instructions) called it "being in no position to defend himself" - and not "in no position to continue".... when I have seen it I think Foster's poor positioning (look where he is when he is stopping it... behind groves) played a huge part in Groves not appearing to be facing him. People say only Foster could see Groves' eyes etc and see how hurt he was. Foster was not in position to see this.

Now Jamie Arthur vs Scott Quigg was considered somewhat early, but that was clear that one punch cause Arthur to double over and spin 360 and have his back to quigg momentarily.... I am convinced this was more a balance thing etc.

There might have been balance issues at the end of the fight, but I would say a fatiguing Groves was showing poorish legs in rounds 7 and 8 also and was recovering, maybe Froch was more tired than is credited for - because he did not do a lot about it then. He was certainly leg weary, but then so was Leonard vs Hagler for the last 3 rounds of their fight and Hagler didn't come close to stopping him.

Froch has a style which can make people look off Balance.... Bute looked "gone" before a meaningful punch was landed, Dirrell was all over the place and a meaningful shot didn't land..... Pascal similarly looked all over the place.... and even Groves looked all over the place at times in the 6, 7, 8 rounds. For me the best he had looked in a long time was the start of the 9th - he really boxed well.

[keithmoonhangover]

I agree with some of what you said mate. Although I do think Groves was turning away when the ref stopped it. One thing I think is always misleading in any fights where it happens, is when a fighter protests the stoppage. Being in good enough shape to protest a fight and being good enough shape to defend yourself against full blooded shots to the head, are two different things. A minute and a half left to go in the round is a long time, especially in the condition Groves appeared to be in. Froch is a great finisher and is strong late in the fight. I just watched the last round again three more times. 30 seconds after the stoppage and Grove's balance is still off. We'll never know, but I just cannot see Groves surviving.

Agree with all of that - what you say is true. Yes, Lennox Lewis was protesting vs McCall - but legs were dipping and eyes looking glazed. I don't think Groves was that bad, but I agree massive difference between protesting and being in a position to.

I did note John McDonald (probably on Howard Foster's instructions) called it "being in no position to defend himself" - and not "in no position to continue".... when I have seen it I think Foster's poor positioning (look where he is when he is stopping it... behind groves) played a huge part in Groves not appearing to be facing him. People say only Foster could see Groves' eyes etc and see how hurt he was. Foster was not in position to see this.

Now Jamie Arthur vs Scott Quigg was considered somewhat early, but that was clear that one punch cause Arthur to double over and spin 360 and have his back to quigg momentarily.... I am convinced this was more a balance thing etc.

There might have been balance issues at the end of the fight, but I would say a fatiguing Groves was showing poorish legs in rounds 7 and 8 also and was recovering, maybe Froch was more tired than is credited for - because he did not do a lot about it then. He was certainly leg weary, but then so was Leonard vs Hagler for the last 3 rounds of their fight and Hagler didn't come close to stopping him.

Froch has a style which can make people look off Balance.... Bute looked "gone" before a meaningful punch was landed, Dirrell was all over the place and a meaningful shot didn't land..... Pascal similarly looked all over the place.... and even Groves looked all over the place at times in the 6, 7, 8 rounds. For me the best he had looked in a long time was the start of the 9th - he really boxed well.

This is how I see it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Bhg1OsQTFg

At 27:25 Groves looks badly hurt and is looking to hang on.

His legs still look very shaky when he comes off the ropes at 27:40

He gets backed to the ropes and is hit by some big shots.

Then the ref stops the fight.

Even at 28:20 to 28:28 I think Groves looks shaky on his legs.

Another misconception is that a fighter's OK, because he's 'throwing back'. Just because you are on good enough condition to throw a punch, doesn't mean you're well enough to continue. Just because Groves is throwing back, doesn't mean he's no too badly hurt. I think he is badly hurt when the fight is called off and Groves still throwing would benefit Carl, by giving him more openings. Froch has always found the stamina when he needs it and adrenaline would also play it's part. I just cannot see Groves with standing another 87 seconds of Froch's onslaught. Grove's bravery and natural reaction, to fight back, would have been his undoing.

[stujones]

if, buts and maybe's though sadly, Keith.

[keithmoonhangover]

if, buts and maybe's though sadly, Keith.

Sadly is the word. Froch is getting loads of grief for a referee stopping a fight he was going to win - in my opinion, Froch's and most of the people on this forum.

Either way mate, the rematch will be a cracker.

[stujones]

Agree - and although I don't like to see anyone take criticism, especially someone who does a good job 9 times out of 10 - the main flack is coming to Howard Foster and sorry to say this, IMO, this flack is deserved.

I've not read a single report or comment saying they agree with the stoppage - other than the BBBoC (and they have to stand by their man).... even those saying Groves was 10 seconds away from a "proper" stoppage, are still suggesting the fight could have gone on 10 seconds later.

Only fact we can truly establish from the night is that Foster had a bad night at the office - and that was even before the stoppage. Personally, and I don't want to sound anti Froch I was and I am a neutral for this one, I thought Froch was more guilty of illegals than Groves although I think there was a legitimate case of both having points deducted.... and Froch maybe 2.

I think most of the anti Froch comments have come from his comments post fight and his lack of respect for Groves.... would he have legitimately won (beyond any dispute?).... we'll never know.... personally he needed a KO to win IMO, and the cards were even worst than the officiating (at least Foster's saved us from that controvesy).

[CheckHook]

.... I thought Froch was more guilty of illegals than Groves although I think there was a legitimate case of both having points deducted.... and Froch maybe 2.

I don't really think either guy particularly deserved to have points deducted, it was a rough fight and plenty of action that deserved a warning, but its boxing, it happens. If you start deducting multiple points in fights like that then you are going to see a lot of DQ's in boxing, using that fight as a precedent. In terms of who was worse, its really semantics I think anyway, Froch was guilty of more minor infractions (borderline punching on the break, rubbing his gloves into Groves face etc) but Groves intentionally hit Froch to the back of the head more than once, with (I think) the 8th round being blatant and with force.

[keithmoonhangover]

Today George is sporting pretty heavy bruising under both eyes. He must have done this to himself after the fight, because Carl Froch barely landed a punch on him all night.

[Finn]

when foster steps in you can see groves hands drop down by his knees

Wrong, his glove is by his ear... you know... protecting himself. The ref left him wide open though for Froch to dig him in the ribs by putting Groves in a god damn headlock - i think that was the "free shot" Froch was talking about.



Farce.

im not wrong at all why dont you watch the footage for yourself instead of chatting shit. The ref steps in and georges hands drop down by his knees.

[stujones]

.... I thought Froch was more guilty of illegals than Groves although I think there was a legitimate case of both having points deducted.... and Froch maybe 2.

I don't really think either guy particularly deserved to have points deducted, it was a rough fight and plenty of action that deserved a warning, but its boxing, it happens. If you start deducting multiple points in fights like that then you are going to see a lot of DQ's in boxing, using that fight as a precedent. In terms of who was worse, its really semantics I think anyway, Froch was guilty of more minor infractions (borderline punching on the break, rubbing his gloves into Groves face etc) but Groves intentionally hit Froch to the back of the head more than once, with (I think) the 8th round being blatant and with force.

Check - I really don't want to be sounding anti Froch here - believe it or not I am neutral (although truly disgusted at the decision) but what does "boderline" punch on the break mean? You either do it or not. Froch did this on countless occasions - thats the offense that I thought he needed at least a point deducted. Its illegal, why warn and do nothing about it? It makes the fighter feel he can get away with it. Look at Cox vs Sai? Froch did it on several occasions, plenty of warning but Froch could get away with it.... illegal is illegal at the end of the day.

[Finn]

Why do people think froch would if stopped him? I don't at all I think groves would of weathered the storm he wasn't even seriously hurt! If anything I think he was the one that would of got the stoppage late on carls legs were gone after the first round watch his legs ! Yes he buzzed groves but not as bad as he'd been dropped and buzzed severly times

I think the reason people think groves was going to be stopped very soon is because it was turning into the bute fight. Yes carl had been buzzed many times but he usually is and just carries on he doesnt wear out, groves was fatigued and was slowing down and starting to let alot of shots through. I wouldnt rule out that groves could have continued and won but from what I saw it was becoming frochs fight and groves was gassed and dudnt have much left in the tank. Froch still had a full tank like usual and could tell the fight was now his for the taking you could see it in him.

[THEBUTCH]

The stoppage was dreadful. I've seen amateur fights allowed to continue when guys have been more shaky.

I honestly think Groves by stoppage in 11th or 12th. Kenny Anderson had Groves in more trouble so we know what Groves is like when he needs to rebound.

[Bard of Boxrec]

Apology accepted Riddick but you still don't know poo about boxing

I don't know shit about boxing because I predicted the right result and underestimated the challenge of Groves?

OK buddy.

[stevek3lly]

If people watch the last 2 rounds back you can clearly see fatigue setting in with Groves and at the time of the stoppage, he didn't have 3 rounds left in him where as we know Froch did. I completely agree that the stoppage at the time it happened has allowed people to believe Groves was going on to win the fight, but lets be honest he wasnt stopping Froch and even the fair scorecard that had Groves up by 3 going into the 9th was proving he was on course for a points win if nothing else.

People need to stop talking about the stoppage and more about the fact it was a great fight. Groves went up in my estimations massively and spoke really well after the fight, but he would have ended up on his arse for me.

[mickey1975]

If people watch the last 2 rounds back you can clearly see fatigue setting in with Groves and at the time of the stoppage, he didn't have 3 rounds left in him where as we know Froch did. I completely agree that the stoppage at the time it happened has allowed people to believe Groves was going on to win the fight, but lets be honest he wasnt stopping Froch and even the fair scorecard that had Groves up by 3 going into the 9th was proving he was on course for a points win if nothing else.

People need to stop talking about the stoppage and more about the fact it was a great fight. Groves went up in my estimations massively and spoke really well after the fight, but he would have ended up on his arse for me.

Have you never seen a boxer get a second wind?

[MightyWarrior]

[Chambers2]

We'll never know, because of Howards bizarre decision