BoxRec

keithmoonhangover wrote:

evrenb wrote:[quote="keithmoonhangover"

dempseyfire wrote:He was physically in top shape at 220 lbs.

What a load or horsesh1t. Being at a certain weight does not mean a fighter is in top shape. You are talking bollocks.

Have to side with you here buddy...Tyson against Bruno / Douglas / Tillman was a grade below the peak years. . . no doubt in my mind.

I think people take their personal feelings for Tyson into their overall consideration...In my opinion and viewing tens of thousands of bouts on film recently while trying to digitalize my film collection fail to see a fighter to match Tyson 1986 - 1988. Just my opinion of course.
As I stated before I cannot consider him the Greatest of all time as the consistency and longevity was not there. But he may have been the Greatest fighter ever on a given night..and should have been the gretest of all time!

Please fill in hate mail here '.......................................................'

evren

The daft thing is, I get accused of being a Tyson nuthugger, because I defend him, but I was never a fan. Tyson says he stopped training properly before the Bruno fight and it shows.

Even before the fight, the media in the UK were saying he hadn't prepared properly.

So he showed he wasn't training properly by knocking out Bruno in 5 and then Williams in 1? This is classic revisionist history.

There were always stories about Tyson not training properly/having issues with (fill in the blank) going back to the Tucker fight. He supposedly had training camp issues prior to Tubbs and I'd consider that his finest performance.

I think it's plainly obvious just watching his demeaner and the way he fought that Tyson wasn't mentally there or physically prepared. He had fought 90 seconds in almost the previous 12 months, the longest lay off in his career to date. Not taking anything away from Buster but he didn't beat the best version of Tyson.

dempseyfire wrote:So he showed he wasn't training properly by knocking out Bruno in 5 and then Williams in 1? This is classic revisionist history.

There were always stories about Tyson not training properly/having issues with (fill in the blank) going back to the Tucker fight. He supposedly had training camp issues prior to Tubbs and I'd consider that his finest performance.

1. He struggled with Bruno.
2. Williams went with one shot.

More importantly, please explain why Tyson weighing 220lbs means he is at peak physical fitness.

You have to look at the whole picture, Tyson was basically a delinquent bully who became heavyweight champion at a very young age. He had more money, women, fans, celebrity and worship than he knew how to cope with. His training suffered, he was being constantly told he was unbeatable and opponents were often beaten before stepping into the ring. He had destroyed Holmes and Spinks and was knocking other top fighters out with relative ease. It's easy to see how his training suffered, especially as Buster was given no chance of beating him and bookies had him as a 42-1 outsider.

Tyson was still only 23, undisputed world champ, 37-0 (33 ko's) and making the 10th defence of his titles, all this in only his 6th year as a pro.

It takes a special kind of sportsmen to stay dedicated and on the ball in that position, as we all know Tyson wasn't the most stable person.

A second or so before the KO Holmes went to throw a big uppercut from the ropes. Unfortunately as he went to throw it his arm got caught in the ropes and it bounced back without going anywhere. Then Tyson KO'd him. Larry might not think so but it was funny in 1988 when I watched the fight and it's still funny in 2013

at the time holmes was considered an easy fight for tyson (they all was) and holmes was probably there because of his name as a former champ . holmes was seen as an old fighter that had lost his last two fights and been retired for two years and tyson was seemed unbeatable . i don't think the fight told us anything we didn't know holmes was well past his best and tyson was very powerful,
this fight meant no more than lewis beating an old tyson or holmes beating an old Ali .
now if they fought in the their primes it would of been a great fight which could of gone either way .

keithmoonhangover wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:So he showed he wasn't training properly by knocking out Bruno in 5 and then Williams in 1? This is classic revisionist history.

There were always stories about Tyson not training properly/having issues with (fill in the blank) going back to the Tucker fight. He supposedly had training camp issues prior to Tubbs and I'd consider that his finest performance.

1. He struggled with Bruno.
2. Williams went with one shot.

More importantly, please explain why Tyson weighing 220lbs means he is at peak physical fitness.

Because 215-220 was his fighting weight. If he'd just been banging hookers and eating cheeseburgers as his apologists like to say, he would've been in the 230s like he was in the late 90s when all he did for training was lift weights and smoke weed. He'd gone through a regular training camp . .it wasn't shortened or derailed. He had shown up and trained.

"Struggled" with Bruno give me a break. Tyson won every round. Bruno landed a good shot in the first (and round in which he got knocked down) but after that proceeded to just grab Mike a la Bonecrusher until the coup de grace.

As for this "well did he have the mental focus/'eye of the tiger' all champs go up and down. Do you think Joe Louis was mentally 100% for all of his defenses? Or Holmes? No, but they found a way to get the job done. Tyson not only failed but got dominated by Douglas.

dempseyfire wrote:

keithmoonhangover wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:So he showed he wasn't training properly by knocking out Bruno in 5 and then Williams in 1? This is classic revisionist history.

There were always stories about Tyson not training properly/having issues with (fill in the blank) going back to the Tucker fight. He supposedly had training camp issues prior to Tubbs and I'd consider that his finest performance.

1. He struggled with Bruno.
2. Williams went with one shot.

More importantly, please explain why Tyson weighing 220lbs means he is at peak physical fitness.

Because 215-220 was his fighting weight. If he'd just been banging hookers and eating cheeseburgers as his apologists like to say, he would've been in the 230s like he was in the late 90s when all he did for training was lift weights and smoke weed. He'd gone through a regular training camp . .it wasn't shortened or derailed. He had shown up and trained.

"Struggled" with Bruno give me a break. Tyson won every round. Bruno landed a good shot in the first (and round in which he got knocked down) but after that proceeded to just grab Mike a la Bonecrusher until the coup de grace.

As for this "well did he have the mental focus/'eye of the tiger' all champs go up and down. Do you think Joe Louis was mentally 100% for all of his defenses? Or Holmes? No, but they found a way to get the job done. Tyson not only failed but got dominated by Douglas.

If you honestly think that Tyson was at his physical peak, just because of what he weighed, then you don't understand boxing.

Bright's corner advice was as good as anything Rooney would've said

I disagree. When Douglas was popping his jab off on Tyson like there was no tomorrow, Aaron Snowel simply said " you're not closing the gap." There were no suggestions to go to the body, slip the jab, or cut of the ring. All the while, they were treating his swelling with a dissolved bag of water, instead of ice, or preferably and inswell device. Angelo Dundee and Gil Clancy were interviewed a few weeks after the fight to give their take on the corner work of Tyson, and neither of them had much nice to say. Angelo at one point even said " he had his head down between rounds, and if I were in there I would have slapped him across the face and said KEEP YOUR HEAD UP, YOU"RE A WORLD CHAMPION!!"

keithmoonhangover wrote:
If you honestly think that Tyson was at his physical peak, just because of what he weighed, then you don't understand boxing.

I agree, being at his normal fighting weight means nothing. Weight doesn't win you the fight, your mental focus and how you perform wins you the fight and neither were there for Tyson that night. I'm sure with enough training Tyson could get down to 220lb right now, it means nothing in isolation.

I don't think that he meant that just because he weighed 220 he was in grreat shape. I think he was just mentioning that he weighed 220 and seem to be in the same shape that he was typically at.

He seemed to me to be physically in the same shape as he typically was. I don't think it was his best performance; he was better in his fights vs Tubbs, Spinks, Holmes, Berbick etc. however, he performed about as well as he did against Tucker, Tillis, and Smith.

Normally, he still would have won. It was a combination of him being a little off, and Douglas having the best fight of his career.

I think it bugs some people to hear the "past his prime" excuse. There is no legitimate reason for that. You really could use that excuse for just about everyone.
didn't have the same trainer? Most fighters don't have the same trainer for their entire career.
They deal with it.

It never ceases to amaze me that people use lame excuses for the rare time a great fighter loses, yet they never seem to mention that sometimes the opponents they beat weren't at their best. Pretty sure Tony Tubbs, Tevor Berbick etc. don't think they had their best fight when they fought Tyson.

A boxer's ideal weight does not necessarily reflect ideal conditioning. His timing, reflexes or even cardio vascular stamina could be compromised If he's neglected certain areas of his training. And that does not even begin to address his mental state or tactical preparedness.

I don't disagree with his post, it just disagrees with others he has made. There is a difference between being in shape and your weight. Especially world class athletic shape. It's just funny when you look back.

Controversial wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:It was a solid win, Larry was more formidable when he fought Evander and even McCall.

How was he more formidable? Not sure how a 45 year old Holmes was any better than he was at 38 especially being as he was heavier as well?

Case in point.

Keith goes off on anybody that says Duran wasn't motivated or in shape for leonard II and yet anyone that disagrees with him about Tokyo is an idiot.

The shit in here is comic gold.

Tyson wasn't shot, he just underestimated Buster and didn't prepare or fight right. He might have been at his fighting weight but he wasn't his normal self and it lost him the fight. That coupled with Buster fighting a great fight and being in great shape mentally and physically.

The loss however certainly took something away from Tyson and smashed the air of invincibility that won him so many fights.

Nah, he just got beat up. How do you know he wasn't in fighting shape past not being able to fathom that he could lose in his prime? Larry Holmes was in better shape against Tyson than he was later because he weighed less. Don't you see the contradiction?

I really find it hard to believe a guy in poor physical condition could take that much punishment. As for the mental excuse, that's equally bung. Buster's mother died.

Saad...the mental one is a great debate aint it? It's at the very least a wash. However I do think in the case of Buster, he was able to take that pain and forge it into a mission. But others might feel it would take him off his game.....so that can't be considered too much of a plus if at all for Buster.

Generally speaking, It would seem to me that the Death of your Mom has to trump just being generally immature and overly egotistical on any given day.

We can go back and forth about this forever ( as many already have over the past 23 years. ) Rather than arguing about who was out of shape, missing their trainer or getting visits from little green men, I am going to simplify it by saying that it was a rare case of one man giving the best performance of his career while the other gave his worst. Tyson vs Douglas is not a fight that can be used to accurately sum up what types of fighters either of these men were on an average night in their careers.

I don't see much of a debate, Tyson got his ass kicked in his prime in an upset so big that people are still trying to come up with reasons why it wasn't legitimate. Nobody thought Douglas could win going in, and that was a better time when 20 or 30 of my friends were into Boxing. In the fourth round I exclaimed that he was going to win. Mike had nothing for him but his fighting heart.

Yeah.....It's too much for some to accept that shyt happens. And yet.....we all produce it every damn day.

The shyt that happens....is actually par for the course...lol.

One thing I will say about Mike, he and Hearns were the two most dramatic fighters I've witnessed in my lifetime. Even in a mismatch you were on the edge of your seat for a Tyson fight. Throughout his career.

Hearns even more so for me.....He may not win, but he came to fight....and his ring IQ was higher....he could take a step back....and decide to attempt a defense strategy if absolutely need be in pursuit of a win. And he could switch back to cave your head in on a dime when/if the moment presented itself. He actually had a transmission with a useable reverse.

Not so much with Mike.

It was reported in the press before the Buster fight that Tyson was having balance problems and took a 5 day break from sparring. It was reported Berbick was regularly catching him in sparring and Tyson was struggling to throw combinations. He had sparred just 30 rounds in two weeks running up to the fight and was dropped by Page as well.

Rooney said. ''But it shows you Mike's got a bunch of amateurs around him.''

''Mike's calling all the shots,'' Rooney said. ''He doesn't respect Bright or Snowell or Don King. He just wants to be paid. He's slowly been slipping. He's losing his interest.''

BoxBuzz wrote:Hearns even more so for me.....He may not win, but he came to fight....and his ring IQ was higher....he could take a step back....and decide to attempt a defense strategy if absolutely need be in pursuit of a win. And he could switch back to cave your head in on a dime when/if the moment presented itself. He actually had a transmission with a useable reverse.

Not so much with Mike.

Oh, Hearns was a much, much greater fighter. I don't think anybody would rate Mike in his class, but Tyson did bring drama to the ring. It's a shame he could never learn how to fight on the inside instead of throwing one or two programmed combos and happily holding. He could have been what people think he was if he could have done that.