Britain's greatest ever champion

[Tuan_Jim]

I'm not defending Lewis or taking sides, Joe simply never took on anyone as dangerous as those men. Also, Lewis beat them both in rematches. What did Joe do in his rematches with Robin Reid and Bernard Hopkins?

Jeff Lacy, that is all.

Funnily enough, Joe wasn't pasted by Reid or Hopkins inside 2 or 5 rounds, he beat both on points in close decisions.

Of course he wasn't- McCall and Rahman were punchers, Reid and Hopkins weren't.

You think Jeff Lacy was some sort of killer? I know he came with a truckload of hype, but he came with no wins of note and lost dismally. You must be desperate and wilfully blind to cite Jeff Lacy as someone who was actually dangerous, as opposed to sold as dangerous.

[stevedoc]

|But that's not what you said.

You said that 'cos Lewis lost to two fighters, his reign wasn't as worthy as Joe's. So, using your own logic, I pointed out that if you think that way it leads to crazy poo like saying Povetkin>Louis.

I used this rhetorical device in order to display that it's not just about "Oh this bloke lost a couple," because in something like boxing that shite don't really matter.

& I went to all this length because I know for a fact you're smart enough, well-versed enough in the game & knowledgeable enough about the sport to recognise the fallacies in your own argument.

i was using mccall and rahman to simply show that lennox lewis wasn't as complete as fighter as some think , very good but he was ko'd in his prime by a below par challenger in Rahman only 2/3 fights before he beat a shot tyson ,the mccall fight could be considered a fluke but for it to happen twice it shows a weakness in lewis's DNA . i'm not even a massive calzaghe fan but he came through anything he faced were as lewis failed at times and he was lucky that vitali cut up or he was about to lose again i think

Okay.

So, let's make it basic. You're saying Joe>Lennox because of Lennox's losses, right?

I think that argument & entire line of reasoning is utter bullshit, & can only reply with "Lennox's losses in this context do not matter, because for me & I imagined for you too, being a dyed-in-the-wool proper boxing bloke, I thought it was all about testing yourself against the best. You slip up along the way, you get the fvck back on the horse & beat those guys who beat you.

"Fight often enough, fight widely enough, you're gonna lose. Joe wasn't so fvcking good ever that he was literally unbeatable, he only retired with the pretty record because he filled time fighting against the Mrkchktktachckckahhhn's of this world & rarely actually faced a proper live body.

"I believe that Ken Buchanan--who I've been mentioning shitloads but people have chosen to ignore--has had one of the most impressive championship careers in British boxing history. He lost. His record is still more impressive than Joe's."

From this one can extrapolate that I value sportsmanlike challenge of one's abilities, courage & "I'll take on any pudendum in the room" well-'ardness as my measure of a champion. Success against those who present such a challenge is an integral part of this evaluation, of course, but on-paper results are of course tempered by circumstance.

From what you keep harping on about, it comes down to that you think not losing makes you great.

I think that's laughable. Otherwise that South Korean kiddy who won the title & defended it twice then retired at about 16-0 is a greater fighter than Marco Barrera, Erik Morales & Wilfredo Gomez.

Can you see where we're coming from on this? I wouldn't be going to all this trouble if you said "I think Joe's style & attributes blah blah blah" & then made an argument based on that. I'd disagree massively, but that's not my point.

You keep talking about his record. His record is hideously inflated, pumped full of silicone & wears too much makeup.

ok stylisticly calzaghe was harder to beat than lewis was , joe work rate southpaw style and speed made him a more complete fighter compared with the often lazy lewis and throw in lewis suspect chin and i favour joe . the one slight many have with calzaghe is his lack of punch but he was in fact a very hard puncher with 21 ko's in his first 22 fights if my memory is right i'm sure if joe was ever in a situation were he needed to come from behind he could turn back to banger

[n1ebf]

I'm not defending Lewis or taking sides, Joe simply never took on anyone as dangerous as those men. Also, Lewis beat them both in rematches. What did Joe do in his rematches with Robin Reid and Bernard Hopkins?

Jeff Lacy, that is all.

Funnily enough, Joe wasn't pasted by Reid or Hopkins inside 2 or 5 rounds, he beat both on points in close decisions.

Of course he wasn't- McCall and Rahman were punchers, Reid and Hopkins weren't.

You think Jeff Lacy was some sort of killer? I know he came with a truckload of hype, but he came with no wins of note and lost dismally. You must be desperate and wilfully blind to cite Jeff Lacy as someone who was actually dangerous, as opposed to sold as dangerous.

he floored Robin Reid about 4 times. I say he wasn't a pussycat. There split opinion on that fight with many, many people including fight fans going for "Left-hook". I'm proud to say I backed Calzaghe from the off so I felt well clever

[Datsue]

[
ok stylisticly calzaghe was harder to beat than lewis was , joe work rate southpaw style and speed made him a more complete fighter compared with the often lazy lewis and throw in lewis suspect chin and i favour joe . the one slight many have with calzaghe is his lack of punch but he was in fact a very hard puncher with 21 ko's in his first 22 fights if my memory is right i'm sure if joe was ever in a situation were he needed to come from behind he could turn back to banger

Fair enough!

Like I said, I'd disagree on that, but it's made me happy you've stopped with the unbeaten thing.

I can let a disagreement between intellects lie but I can't just talk at cross-purposes with someone I have respect for & leave it, like!

Have a good one, mush!

PS: Lewis's greater courage (exemplified by challenging himself against bigger tests), massive one-punch power & better technical employment of classical boxing gifts ranks him higher for me, as does his kick-arse jab.

Joe could never turn back into a banger imo, he didn't have the mitts for it & I think all his earnest scuffling he was forced to do would've got him some losses if he'd've ever had the bollocks/opportunity to fight a properly great fighter in (or anywhere near) their primes. Or even if he'd've ever bothered to challenge himself by fighting dangerous foes on a regular or semi-regular basis. He never did this, btw. If he had, he wouldn't have had an unbeaten record.

He also wasn't a true power puncher at world level anyway, never stopping a prime world class opponent who was known in any way for durability. Please don't say Byron Mitchell, 'cos I will laugh at you, because he was shite & I once watched Julio Cesar Green deck him about three or four times & have him in far worse trouble than Joe had him in.

But then we're talking apples & oranges, as I said...

[lefty]

Ward would of beaten Calzaghe I believe.

[Deserter]

Sure it didn't say greatest Welsh champion, his that for sure.
Lennox is the best British champion, in terms of competition.

I'd rate Calzaghe above Lewis - I don't recall Joe getting sparked by fighters of the calibre of McCall and Rahman.

I'm not saying Lewis is the greatest, however heavyweight boxing is almost a different sport in my opinion, you can't say he wasn't the best because he got ko'd a couple times. We'll I guess you can but I thinks that's very unfair.

And I'm not saying Calzaghe was the greatest. My point is not so much about the fact Lewis was KO'ed twice, it's WHO he was KO'ed by. Losing to fighters of that calibre would have been like Calzaghe getting sparked by Charles Brewer and Richie Woodhall... and you can guarantee that even if Joe had beaten both in rematches, it would have been massively detrimental to how people rated him.
Heavyweights in general get cut a lot more slack than other fighters in lower weight divisions. If Lewis had been a Bantamweight rather than a Heavyweight and had the same record, I highly doubt you would have anyone on here claiming he had a stronger legacy than Calzaghe.

[Autobarn]

so it's come down to lewis & calzaghe?

both could do things the other couldn't - joe could fight an amazing pace whereas lewis was one paced to the extreme (a given considering his size, but still, lewis could not raise the pace during the exceptionally close & crucial one with mercer).

lewis destroyed some big dudes - Ruddock, golota, grant, briggs in their firefight, and had Bruno helpless - whereas joe couldn't stop world class fighters unless he benefited from "british" stoppages.

joe retired undefeated but lewis fought more top names.

both are in the IBHOF, the hall of fame that matters - joe obviously is inducted this june. let's be pleased & proud of 'em - how many hall of famers have Australia, Canada, Germany, Russia, produced in this time?

[Tuan_Jim]

You think Jeff Lacy was some sort of killer? I know he came with a truckload of hype, but he came with no wins of note and lost dismally. You must be desperate and wilfully blind to cite Jeff Lacy as someone who was actually dangerous, as opposed to sold as dangerous.

he floored Robin Reid about 4 times. I say he wasn't a pussycat. There split opinion on that fight with many, many people including fight fans going for "Left-hook". I'm proud to say I backed Calzaghe from the off so I felt well clever

I backed Calzaghe too, because I had seen Lacy a number of times on tape, including vs Omar Sheika. That fight had Calzaghe UD written all over it.

As for Lacy being dangerous by decking Reid, to qoute Calzaghe at the time, 'It's difficult to tell how good Lacy was because Reid was so bad.' Reid was well past it & never very good.

[Datsue]

so it's come down to lewis & calzaghe?

Oi, no! Is my shout for Ken Buchanan getting lost amidst silly fvcking arguments about how being unbeaten somehow matters, or what?

[expe]

You think Jeff Lacy was some sort of killer? I know he came with a truckload of hype, but he came with no wins of note and lost dismally. You must be desperate and wilfully blind to cite Jeff Lacy as someone who was actually dangerous, as opposed to sold as dangerous.

he floored Robin Reid about 4 times. I say he wasn't a pussycat. There split opinion on that fight with many, many people including fight fans going for "Left-hook". I'm proud to say I backed Calzaghe from the off so I felt well clever

I backed Calzaghe too, because I had seen Lacy a number of times on tape, including vs Omar Sheika. That fight had Calzaghe UD written all over it.

As for Lacy being dangerous by decking Reid, to qoute Calzaghe at the time, 'It's difficult to tell how good Lacy was because Reid was so bad.' Reid was well past it & never very good.

Reid was world champion, you're doing him a serious disservice there, no one had beaten him easily before he fought Lacy and he was dropped 6 times in 7 rounds before quitting on his stool, Lacy smashed him to pieces.

[Autobarn]

Ward would of beaten Calzaghe I believe.

don't think calzaghe would've been easy to hug the fight out of, somehow. very strong up close and adaptable. ward, very tricky, but fights the same way almost every time. calzaghe was caught out sometimes by cute counter rights but ward being a more left handed fighter with that amateur way of punching like pistons rather than getting the body into it and turning the shot over - not sure those shots would've troubled joe that badly.

it'd've been an ugly maul, no doubt.

[n1ebf]

I always get Brewer mixed up with another similar looking guy he fought. Was Brewer the guy that chinned him? There was another fighter that dropped Calzaghe but I can't remember who it was. Way, way before Roy or Hopkins.
The Peter Manfredo fight looks like an anomoly on Joe's record. A very dubious match-up..

[Datsue]

I always get Brewer mixed up with another similar looking guy he fought. Was Brewer the guy that chinned him? There was another fighter that dropped Calzaghe but I can't remember who it was. Way, way before Roy or Hopkins.
The Peter Manfredo fight looks like an anomoly on Joe's record. A very dubious match-up..

Mitchell decked him, & Kabary Salem* as well iirc.

*: Who? Ex-fornicating-actly.

[expe]

I always get Brewer mixed up with another similar looking guy he fought. Was Brewer the guy that chinned him? There was another fighter that dropped Calzaghe but I can't remember who it was. Way, way before Roy or Hopkins.
The Peter Manfredo fight looks like an anomoly on Joe's record. A very dubious match-up..

Byron Mitchell dropped him in the second, the fight was over by the end of the same round. Manfredo was a name in the US because he was on the Contender, but apart from that he had no right to be in the ring with one of the top 10 fighters in the world P4P, never mind his own weight.

[lillywhite14]

Salem and Bika gave Joe two fairly uncomfortable evenings

[n1ebf]

You think Jeff Lacy was some sort of killer? I know he came with a truckload of hype, but he came with no wins of note and lost dismally. You must be desperate and wilfully blind to cite Jeff Lacy as someone who was actually dangerous, as opposed to sold as dangerous.

he floored Robin Reid about 4 times. I say he wasn't a pussycat. There split opinion on that fight with many, many people including fight fans going for "Left-hook". I'm proud to say I backed Calzaghe from the off so I felt well clever

I backed Calzaghe too, because I had seen Lacy a number of times on tape, including vs Omar Sheika. That fight had Calzaghe UD written all over it.

As for Lacy being dangerous by decking Reid, to qoute Calzaghe at the time, 'It's difficult to tell how good Lacy was because Reid was so bad.' Reid was well past it & never very good.

obviously Reid was well past it. But he wasn't one for getting pushed around though. I always thought Reid overachieved, didn't exactly look a natural to me. I agree, the Reid of 7 or 8 years early would probably not have been blasted around like that.
I think I must have seen Lacy fight on the Hatton-Tackie card......although I honestly can't remember a damn thing about it.
Possibly Sharmba Mitchell too..

[n1ebf]

Salem and Bika gave Joe two fairly uncomfortable evenings

I thought Bika was tremendous in that fight. Joe was a bit apologetic but I don't know why...Bika had zero respect for him (or some of the rules) whatsoever, and Joe dealt with him. That was a good win by Joe imho. I think he had a busted hand too...which makes it even more impressive.

[Autobarn]

so it's come down to lewis & calzaghe?

Oi, no! Is my shout for Ken Buchanan getting lost amidst silly fvcking arguments about how being unbeaten somehow matters, or what?

yeah, haha. he was very mobile and very good. had to do a lot of holding though didn't he, and not often a lot on his shots. still, to move like he did, at the pace he was able to go at, in 15-rounders...

not been able to see very many buchanan: the 2nd laguna, but not the first, winning during the day in massive heat. not seen the watt fight, apparently a classic - didn't the BBC master tape go missing? destroyed in one of the BBCs culls perhaps when on one of their space saving projects. obviously I saw the duran fight in which duran initiated the mauling, but none of the other ones buchanan claimed he was stitched up in, Suzuki.

[Datsue]

This brings up, tangentially, the funniest thing I can remember written by a proper boxing writer, when someone who shall remain nameless advanced, with a straight face, that Robin Reid getting the living shite kicked out of him by a French middleweight didn't really show Reid's abilities & potential in the correct light, 'cos Robin was very upset by the death of Princess Di.

I, for one, would like to put forward the contention that Chisora was obviously a better fighter than Haye ever was, because I heard he cried when he heard about Madeleine McCann.

[n1ebf]

I always get Brewer mixed up with another similar looking guy he fought. Was Brewer the guy that chinned him? There was another fighter that dropped Calzaghe but I can't remember who it was. Way, way before Roy or Hopkins.
The Peter Manfredo fight looks like an anomoly on Joe's record. A very dubious match-up..

Byron Mitchell dropped him in the second, the fight was over by the end of the same round. Manfredo was a name in the US because he was on the Contender, but apart from that he had no right to be in the ring with one of the top 10 fighters in the world P4P, never mind his own weight.

Byron Mitchell was the guy who I always call Brewer I thought Joe stopped him the following round. I tought it was someone other than Salem who dropped him. It's all getting a bit hazy!

[Tuan_Jim]

Reid was world champion, you're doing him a serious disservice there, no one had beaten him easily before he fought Lacy and he was dropped 6 times in 7 rounds before quitting on his stool, Lacy smashed him to pieces.

Ah, now come on. He beat the awful Nardiello and lost to a 40+ Sugarboy Malinga. You think that would have made any man a world champion in any previous era?

Randy Turpin won more important 10 rounders, among a million others.

Anyway back to the argument. Ken Buchanan for me.

[Tuan_Jim]

not seen the watt fight, apparently a classic - didn't the BBC master tape go missing? destroyed in one of the BBCs culls perhaps when on one of their space saving projects. obviously I saw the duran fight in which duran initiated the mauling, but none of the other ones buchanan claimed he was stitched up in, Suzuki.

The full 15 of Watt/Buchanan is out there.

[Autobarn]

in good quality or in green/purple discoloured?

[lillywhite14]

Salem and Bika gave Joe two fairly uncomfortable evenings

I thought Bika was tremendous in that fight. Joe was a bit apologetic but I don't know why...Bika had zero respect for him (or some of the rules) whatsoever, and Joe dealt with him. That was a good win by Joe imho. I think he had a busted hand too...which makes it even more impressive.

Yep, Bika was a real handful. Threw the kitchen sink and anything else he could get away with in that fight, as you should do in the biggest fight of your life, and gave Joe a good nights work.

I imagine Joe was apologetic because Bika was deemed to be a bit of a no name I guess.

[n1ebf]

and because it was directly after the Lacy fight, when Joe had pretty much super-star status. Lot of expectation.