Page 3 of 4
Re: How Do You Rate Clay's Win Over Liston?
Posted: 04 Feb 2014, 12:28
by raylawpc
Liston fought stupidly.
I'm not saying Sonny would have won if he had fought smartly
, but it would have been a better fight.
How do I rate the win? It was a very good win for the underdog Cassius who really did "shock the world." But when rating the fight, one has to take into account how stupidly Liston fought . . .
Re: How Do You Rate Clay's Win Over Liston?
Posted: 04 Feb 2014, 12:54
by The Great John L
He fought stupid because he had no clue how to deal with Ali's footspeed. There was nothing he could have done against Ali without a gun or rocket launcher.
A great performance by a relative novice against an experienced and dangerous opponent.
Re: How Do You Rate Clay's Win Over Liston?
Posted: 04 Feb 2014, 13:05
by raylawpc
The Great John L wrote:He fought stupid because he had no clue how to deal with Ali's footspeed. There was nothing he could have done against Ali without a gun or rocket launcher.
A great performance by a relative novice against an experienced and dangerous opponent.
I disagree. Sonny knew how to cut off the ring, but didn't do it very well in this fight. He also used his left jab stupidly. Not that Sonny would have necessarily won or that it wasn't a great performance by young Cassius . . .
Sonny fought like he left his brains in the dressing room.
Re: How Do You Rate Clay's Win Over Liston?
Posted: 04 Feb 2014, 14:12
by The Great John L
raylawpc wrote:The Great John L wrote:He fought stupid because he had no clue how to deal with Ali's footspeed. There was nothing he could have done against Ali without a gun or rocket launcher.
A great performance by a relative novice against an experienced and dangerous opponent.
I disagree. Sonny knew how to cut off the ring, but didn't do it very well in this fight. He also used his left jab stupidly. Not that Sonny would have necessarily won or that it wasn't a great performance by young Cassius . . .
Sonny fought like he left his brains in the dressing room.
Prior to this fight he hadn't needed anything more than what he brought. Cutting off the ring is one thing. Doing it against a young Ali is an entirely different issue.
Re: How Do You Rate Clay's Win Over Liston?
Posted: 04 Feb 2014, 14:57
by evrenb
I think Tyson said it best 'Ali made Liston look like he
Was from another era' ....
Re: How Do You Rate Clay's Win Over Liston?
Posted: 04 Feb 2014, 15:00
by raylawpc
The Great John L wrote:raylawpc wrote:The Great John L wrote:He fought stupid because he had no clue how to deal with Ali's footspeed. There was nothing he could have done against Ali without a gun or rocket launcher.
A great performance by a relative novice against an experienced and dangerous opponent.
I disagree. Sonny knew how to cut off the ring, but didn't do it very well in this fight. He also used his left jab stupidly. Not that Sonny would have necessarily won or that it wasn't a great performance by young Cassius . . .
Sonny fought like he left his brains in the dressing room.
Prior to this fight he hadn't needed anything more than what he brought. Cutting off the ring is one thing. Doing it against a young Ali is an entirely different issue.
The thing is, he didn't even try. Again, I am not saying he would have won. I'm saying he fought stupidly and could have done better.
Re: How Do You Rate Clay's Win Over Liston?
Posted: 04 Feb 2014, 15:44
by keithmoonhangover
evrenb wrote:I think Tyson said it best 'Ali made Liston look like he
Was from another era' ....
Brilliant quote.
Re: How Do You Rate Clay's Win Over Liston?
Posted: 04 Feb 2014, 16:38
by BoxBuzz
Hey Il Duce.....you are seriously foolish. That fight, the body language says it all. And it does not tell a story of a Liston who was about to be humbled on his own accord. He came in with every fibre of his being saying....I'm going to win. Period. And it won't last long folks. Don't go out for a beer.
And then like a big oversize balloon he sputtered and eventually just ran flat out of his can of "whup ass".
And then that victory....that he was so sure of ...well Doucher.......it simply did not take place. (A bit like many of your stories.)
He did strive mightily. He just did not accomplish.
Sort of like how you strive to be credible. And fall short of the mark, in many cases, by most measures.
Re: How Do You Rate Clay's Win Over Liston?
Posted: 04 Feb 2014, 16:51
by scallum
Il Duce wrote:Big Deal
Sonny Boy was cashing in.............He we wanted out anyway.
He wanted to be left alone, to rub elbows with the old gang, and drive his big Cadillac
thru the streets of Denver.
'Merry Chistmas'
Didn't Sonny continue to fight years after he fought Ali?
Re: How Do You Rate Clay's Win Over Liston?
Posted: 04 Feb 2014, 18:35
by BoxBuzz
Well that's not relevant. But it's a creative response from someone who knows full well that he's peddlin' a load of baloney.
Re: How Do You Rate Clay's Win Over Liston?
Posted: 05 Feb 2014, 03:28
by SamWise72
Virtually every post Duce makes these days is full of holes. Why pick one where he's absolutely right to argue with? Not only is it possible to be both, he's probably right that Ali was both deeply loved by more sports fans than anyone else, and hated by more sports fans than anyone else. Jack Johnson is probably the only boxer to come close in how he polarised opinion.
Re: How Do You Rate Clay's Win Over Liston?
Posted: 05 Feb 2014, 14:49
by elmersalsa
The Great John L wrote:He fought stupid because he had no clue how to deal with Ali's footspeed. There was nothing he could have done against Ali without a gun or rocket launcher.
A great performance by a relative novice against an experienced and dangerous opponent.
I agree with that 100%. It was the first time that a heavyweight so big like the great Cassius Clay was at the time he fought the great Sonny Liston, TO BE SO FAST AND ACCURATE. It was something never seen before. Just like the Beatles. It was something the world has never seen before.
Re: How Do You Rate Clay's Win Over Liston?
Posted: 05 Feb 2014, 14:57
by elmersalsa
I BELIEVE THAT IT WAS THE GREAT SONNY LISTON's TIME TO BE TAKEN. He already CLEANED UP the division by the late 50s and early 60s. We forgot that he was DUCKED for the world championship for a couple of years. Once he won the crown, I think his hunger for fighting was not there anymore and also was the combination of how great that kid Clay was that night.
Let's give the great Cassius Clay/Muhammad Ali credit. He was VERY FAST. At the time of the stoppage in round 7, the fight was CLOSE still.
Did Liston quit because he knew he did not had it that night, or just that Clay was better? It is hard to tell because of the events that happened in the fight.
Re: How Do You Rate Clay's Win Over Liston?
Posted: 05 Feb 2014, 21:54
by BoxBuzz
Il Duce wrote:This was really a poor action fight.
Round 1 > No quality action, and very few quality punches were thrown.
* Sonny landed '1' good right hand punch to the body.
* Cassius landed a few accurate punches towards the end of the Round.
Round 2 was much better than Round 1 in activity.
* Sonny was the aggressor, and forced the action.
* Cassius really did little, other than landing a few pokes.
Round 3 was the best action, and only real 'fighting' to take place.
* Cassius looked very good during the first-half of the Round, but failed to seize the opportunity.
* Sonny came on like gang-busters during the latter part of the Round.
Round 4
* Cassius looked winded, and did nothing but jab and move backwards.
* Sonny plodded, and failed to throw any quality punches on a 'tired' fighter.
Between Rounds >
A complete phony sham of 'something in the eyes'. A typical Chris Dundee 'wresting gag'.
Round 5
* 'Blinky' Clay moves around the Ring backwards, while holding out his arms.
* Sonny 'I'll Pull My Punches' Liston throws phony punches into Clay like and Amateur Fighter.
* Most people laugh at the 'fake phony sham'.
Round 6
* Cassius "remarkably' clears his eyes, and pecks away with stiff left jabs into a 'slow moving oaf'.
* Sonny does nothing, but slowly walks forward, and does nothing other than letting a Pip Squeak hit him with jabs.
Between Rounds >
* Thankfully, this dull atrocity ends.'
I'll miss you when you're gone....should you trip over yourself a couple more times. And I'm afraid it's fairly likely.
But I have to say, when you are right uh..hmm...let me rephrase this, because your never really "right" now are you? But when you are bordering on historically ACCURATE....you are merely a master of the obvious, and as such rather boring mundane, and largely mimeographic.
But when you are wrong, your desperation and perverse commitment reveals a pretty entertaining weave of wishes, hopes, and obsession. It's clear that some see you as a threat to the integrity of the entire boxing universe. But it's only when you are at your "wrongest", and most inaccurate, that you are at least minimally entertaining. I tend to breeze past your cut and paste from good sources moments. And find your whole cloth babblecrap the more fascinating aspect of your contributions.
Sort of a Dr Who/Twilight Zone/Charlie Zellenoff brand of an alternate universe of boxing.
You are completely and absolutely harmless. And I'll fight any man in the house who says different.
Re: How Do You Rate Clay's Win Over Liston?
Posted: 06 Feb 2014, 10:21
by Space Moutain
Il Duce wrote:OK, Lesson for today for the Cassius Clay Lovers
Question 1
Lets ask the World who is their most beloved athlete.
Let's say 25% respond with Cassius Clay.
The next highest rated athlete gets 15%.
Result. Cassius Clay is the most beloved athlete.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Question 2
Let's ask the World what athlete do they 'hate' and 'despise' the most.
Let's say 25% respond with Cassius Clay.
The next highest rated athlete gets 15%.
Result, Cassius Clay is most 'hated' and 'despised' athlete in the World.
I respect you
Re: How Do You Rate Clay's Win Over Liston?
Posted: 06 Feb 2014, 11:05
by evrenb
Il Duce wrote:It wasn't a 'real fight'.
Cassius Clay's talent had little to do with the pre-determined outcome.
This was a 'financial decision' by both parties.
Though Sonny made a lot of money {debt's paid off}, he did get royally screwed.
But, he was 'Tons of Trouble' and 'Bad News', and what goes around comes around.
Mike DeJohn on Sonny Liston
"They cut Sonny up 'four-ways' ~ up, down, sideways and often"
You don't really believe this...why bother? What's the point? Is it the attention you crave that you do not receive elsewhere??
Re: How Do You Rate Clay's Win Over Liston?
Posted: 06 Feb 2014, 11:06
by BoxBuzz
Space Moutain wrote:Il Duce wrote:OK, Lesson for today for the Cassius Clay Lovers
Question 1
Lets ask the World who is their most beloved athlete.
Let's say 25% respond with Cassius Clay.
The next highest rated athlete gets 15%.
Result. Cassius Clay is the most beloved athlete.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Question 2
Let's ask the World what athlete do they 'hate' and 'despise' the most.
Let's say 25% respond with Cassius Clay.
The next highest rated athlete gets 15%.
Result, Cassius Clay is most 'hated' and 'despised' athlete in the World.
I respect you
Welccome Space Moutain.
This concept is indeed respectable, understandable, sensible.
And.... good info is always good info. And... always be critical in your thinking regardless of the source.
Re: How Do You Rate Clay's Win Over Liston?
Posted: 06 Feb 2014, 11:15
by Space Moutain
BoxBuzz wrote:Space Moutain wrote:Il Duce wrote:OK, Lesson for today for the Cassius Clay Lovers
Question 1
Lets ask the World who is their most beloved athlete.
Let's say 25% respond with Cassius Clay.
The next highest rated athlete gets 15%.
Result. Cassius Clay is the most beloved athlete.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Question 2
Let's ask the World what athlete do they 'hate' and 'despise' the most.
Let's say 25% respond with Cassius Clay.
The next highest rated athlete gets 15%.
Result, Cassius Clay is most 'hated' and 'despised' athlete in the World.
I respect you
Welccome Space Moutain.
This concept is indeed respectable, understandable, sensible.
And.... good info is always good info. And... always be critical in your thinking regardless of the source.
Thank you.
Re: How Do You Rate Clay's Win Over Liston?
Posted: 07 Feb 2014, 07:37
by scallum
Helped launch Ali into becoming the best heavyweight ever and probably the most famous human being planet Earth has seen. Have yet to see another heavy that could move like Ali did
Re: How Do You Rate Clay's Win Over Liston?
Posted: 07 Feb 2014, 07:50
by Space Moutain
scallum wrote:Helped launch Ali into becoming the best heavyweight ever and probably the most famous human being planet Earth has seen. Have yet to see another heavy that could move like Ali did
Most famous? Uh, no.
Re: How Do You Rate Clay's Win Over Liston?
Posted: 07 Feb 2014, 08:11
by fatcity69
Il Duce wrote:scallum wrote:Helped launch Ali into becoming the best heavyweight ever and probably the most famous human being planet Earth has seen. Have yet to see another heavy that could move like Ali did
Yes, it's easy to look fast when you're in the Ring with slow old guys.
Isnt it time for your meds yet???
Re: How Do You Rate Clay's Win Over Liston?
Posted: 07 Feb 2014, 08:57
by scallum
Il Duce wrote:scallum wrote:Helped launch Ali into becoming the best heavyweight ever and probably the most famous human being planet Earth has seen. Have yet to see another heavy that could move like Ali did
Yes, it's easy to look fast when you're in the Ring with slow old guys.
Lol
Re: How Do You Rate Clay's Win Over Liston?
Posted: 07 Feb 2014, 08:58
by scallum
Space Moutain wrote:scallum wrote:Helped launch Ali into becoming the best heavyweight ever and probably the most famous human being planet Earth has seen. Have yet to see another heavy that could move like Ali did
Most famous? Uh, no.
If not the most famous definitely one of the most famous
Re: How Do You Rate Clay's Win Over Liston?
Posted: 07 Feb 2014, 09:03
by scallum
Il Duce wrote:It was 'dull' and uneventful.
Complete lack of action, between a 'lumbering' old man with major Tax Problems from the IRS,
and a fleet-footed light-punching kid who had 'Financial Backers up the Coolie'.
That lumbering old man fought successfully for like 5 yesars after the first fight vs Clay
Re: How Do You Rate Clay's Win Over Liston?
Posted: 07 Feb 2014, 09:51
by The Great John L
Space Moutain wrote:scallum wrote:Helped launch Ali into becoming the best heavyweight ever and probably the most famous human being planet Earth has seen. Have yet to see another heavy that could move like Ali did
Most famous? Uh, no.
Well, I'm not sure about the most famous ever, but he was arguably the most recognizable human during the 70's.
