Arcel and Steward said Ray Robinson was protected

[Crease]

Talking about Quigg, Frampton, Mayweather or whoever is unrelated and nothing to do with this thread, so yes you were rambling.

Actually if you were to take moment of that limited brain of yours, you would clearly notice that I was confirming and reinforcing Boxbuzz's point regarding Promoters.... and Promoting!


You silly fool!!!!

Why would a cartoonist think to publish that cartoon in January 1942

It couldn't have been a provocative attempt at trying get the fight to happen... Could it?
The explanation is almost as obvious as the question.

Don't bother to reply, your points do not make sense, have no depth......or make any point.

Son you've contradicted yourself on this thread more times than enough

[Controversial]

Talking about Quigg, Frampton, Mayweather or whoever is unrelated and nothing to do with this thread, so yes you were rambling.

Actually if you were to take moment of that limited brain of yours, you would clearly notice that I was confirming and reinforcing Boxbuzz's point regarding Promoters.... and Promoting!


You silly fool!!!!

Why would a cartoonist think to publish that cartoon in January 1942

It couldn't have been a provocative attempt at trying get the fight to happen... Could it?
The explanation is almost as obvious as the question.

Don't bother to reply, your points do not make sense, have no depth......or make any point.

I didn't think you were going to reply anymore?

Im aware of what you are saying about promotors and yes I agree. The examples in isolation mean little but when you see the whole picture it tends to suggest an element of truth. Its a constant theme throughout his career and its the same thing said by various sources. I have never stated anything as proof but the fact he never got a single shot of the title (or even a eliminator) shows he was avoided like the plague (and that is a fact).

I don't see why a cartoonist would be involved in making a provocative statement in 1942. Its common practice for newspaper cartoonists to satire topical issues and I believe thats what he was doing.

I have never criticised SRR for not fighting Burley either, I just think his team avoided Burley as he was considered too dangerous, the same reason no champ would fight him. SRR never fought Bert Lytell or the Cocoa Kid either. At middleweight SRR fought mainly white opponents for the title or eliminators, LaMotta, Graziano, Levine, Bobo Olson, Gene Fulmer, Joey Maxim (LHW), Carmen Bassilo and Paul Pender although many of these bouts were after Burley retired. However SRR actually retired in June 1952 before making a comeback 3 years later and fighting for another 10 years.

It doesn't get away from the fact that SRR fought other middleweights early in his career and could've fought Burley at welterweight.

1) Burley top challenger in 1939 to Armstrong
2) Beats Zivic twice (June 1938 and July 1939 but Zivic gets welterweight title shot and wins title against Armstrong in January 1941.
3) Zivic "buys" Burleys contract before July 1941, effectively "owning Burley"
4) From Sept. 1940 to May 1942 Burley goes 20-0 (15 KOs)
5) Jan 1942 cartoon showing SRR, Zivic, Red Cochrane and McCoy avoiding him
6) SRR fights middleweight LaMotta in 1942, 1943 (x2) and in 1945 (x2)
7) SRR fights various middleweights in 1945/46. SRR weighs more than the 147lb welterweight limit in 1943/44/45 so effectively a middleweight.
(8) 1942-45 press reports that Burley made various offers to Zale, LaMotta, Conn, and SRR
9) From Dec. 1942 to Dec. 1946 Burley losses one fight and gets a disputed draw.
10) July 16th 1946 National Boxing Association ranks him the outstanding challenger for Tony Zale's title
11) Oct 1946 NBA President urges Burley fights for middleweight title
12) Ranked 2nd best middleweight by Ring Magazine in 1947
13) In last 4 years of career from 1947-50 Burley goes from averaging 10 fights a year to averaging 2 fights a year (he won his last 4 fights).
14) Jan 1949 Burley attends local press offices in Pittsburgh asking why no-one will fight him
15) Aug 1949 SRR fights Steve Belloise in middleweight title eliminator
16) July 22nd 1950 Burley has last fight in Peru and never fights again (retired aged 32 years 10 months)


Below Ring magazine middleweight rankings January 11th 1947 {The Afro American}

Champ: Tony Zale (white) - fought Graziano (x3), Abrams and Cerdan

1. Jack LaMotta (white) got title shot (fought SRR six times in 1942, 1943 (x2), 1945 (x2) and 1951)
2. Charley Burley (black) NO SHOT
3. Rocky Graziano (white) got title shot (fought SRR on April 16th 1952)
4. Marcel Cerdan (white) got title shot (beat Zale for title and defended against LaMotta)
5. Georgie Abrams (white) got title shot (fought SRR on May 16th 1947 and many thought beat him, loud boos from crowd). Abrams drew with Burley but many thought Burley won.
6. Bert Lytell (black) NO SHOT (went 1-1 with Burley and lost highly disputed decision to LaMotta in 1945. Never fought SRR)
7. Steve Belloise (white) NO SHOT lost middleweight eliminator fight to SRR on August 24th 1949
8. Artie Levine (white) NO SHOT lost to SRR on November 6th 1946, had SSR on the floor in controversial "long count"

[elmersalsa]

Scraping together a bunch of newpaper clippings does not conclusively prove any point. Okay the Robinson vs Burley fight never happened, but Sugar Ray was a very busy fighter - it's more likely than he never found the time to set the fight up rather than blatantly ducking Charley Burley.

One last thing, I would point to the fact that the original article stated that Sugar Ray Robinson struggled against jabs....................................

Think about that for a moment.........................

The Greatest Boxer in the history of the sport!!!!
The most complete pugilist there has ever been!!!


struggles against a jab. - The most basic punch of them all....






It's rank lunacy, that's what I say.

I could find 10 boxers that were more complete than he was. It think the greats Charley Burley and Ezzard Charles were MORE COMPLETE

[elmersalsa]

In a way, the great Sugar Ray Robinson was protected. Some fighters that he should have fought in his own weight class, he did not fight: Charley Burley, Holman Williams, Cocoa Kid, Eddie Booker, Tony Zale, etc.

I do not think that those newspaper clips were fabricated. Did Sugar Ray ducked them? That is the big question. Maybe he did, maybe he did not. We will never know.

[Chuck1052]

In a way, the great Sugar Ray Robinson was protected. Some fighters that he should have fought in his own weight class, he did not fight: Charley Burley, Holman Williams, Cocoa Kid, Eddie Booker, Tony Zale, etc.

I do not think that those newspaper clips were fabricated. Did Sugar Ray ducked them? That is the big question. Maybe he did, maybe he did not. We will never know.

I doubt that Tony Zale was that eager to fight anyone but Rocky Graziano during the middle 1940s. Graziano was the best non-heavyweight gate attraction of the time by a considerable margin besides being less formidable than a number of other welterweights or middleweights, important considerations for Zale during the latter part of his career.

By the way, why isn't there any discussion about Zale and Graziano being protected on this thread? Neither of them also didn't fight Charley Burley, Holman Williams, Cocoa Kid or Eddie Booker, let alone Jake LaMotta. Zale also didn't fight Sugar Ray Robinson while Graziano didn't fight him until the early 1950s. Also keep in mind that Zale and Graziano were middleweights while Robinson was a very skinny welterweight during the middle 1940s.

I believe that there wasn't much talk about Robinson avoiding middleweights during the middle 1940s. Keep in mind that Robinson had become the world welterweight champion only a short time before in 1945.

- Chuck Johnston

[Controversial]

Also keep in mind that Zale and Graziano were middleweights while Robinson was a very skinny welterweight during the middle 1940s.

Chuck Johnston

Hmm not strictly true Chuck.

The welterweight limit is 147lb (obviously no light-middleweight division in those days) and SRR fought at middleweight, against other middleweights in some fights in 1943, 1944 and 1945. SRR fought LaMotta in 1942 as a welterweight however LaMotta was a middleweight weighing 158lb. So SRR wasn't adverse to fighting bigger guys quite early in his career.

LaMotta outweighed him by 16lb in 1943 in another of their fights.

SRR weighed 156.5lb against the 165.5lb Freddie Wilson in June 1946, that was before he fought for the welterweight title.

SRR only defended the welterweight title 5 times, winning it from Tommy Bell in December 1946. The title was vacated by Marty Servo (white boxer) in Sept 1946 claiming a nose injury.

SRR defences were -

Jimmy Doyle (Aug 1947) - white boxer
Chuck Taylor (Dec 1947) - white boxer
Bernard Docusen (June 1948) - mixed race boxer (previously banned from fighting in some states as he was 'coloured')
Kid Gavilan (July 1949) - black boxer
Charley Fusari (August 1950) - white boxer

However SRR fought 32 non-title fights whilst welterweight champ between 1947-1950, all of which he fought at middleweight (his highest weight in these bouts was 157lb)

SRR fought a middleweight title eliminator (whilst welterweight champ) in Aug 1949 (opponent 'white' Steve Belloise was 158lb) and won the Pennsylvania middleweight title (whilst welterweight champ) in June 1950 (opponent 'white' Robert Villemain was 159.5lb).

The reason many people assume SRR was only a welterweight and Burley was a full blown middleweight is often people just look at when SRR won the middleweight world title (Oct 1950) which was after Burley had retired in July 1950. In reality SRR and Burley were both frequently fighting at middleweight from 1946-50.

I've also heard people call Burley a huge middleweight, SRR was 5'11" and Burley 5'9".

[Crease]

I could find 10 boxers that were more complete than he was. It think the greats Charley Burley and Ezzard Charles were MORE COMPLETE

:)

Well that is interesting, I think I will create a topic thread about this. Could be an interesting discussion, provided that we don't slip back in to previous arguments and focus on the topic at hand.

[Crease]

In a way, the great Sugar Ray Robinson was protected. Some fighters that he should have fought in his own weight class, he did not fight: Charley Burley, Holman Williams, Cocoa Kid, Eddie Booker, Tony Zale, etc.

With respect mate, no boxer in history defeated all of his contemporaries, there is always another contender or up n coming undefeated challenger or a World Champion at the weight below, or the weight above. No one has done it all.

So the point that your making is not exclusive to Sugar Ray Robinson and could be used as a criticism toward any fighter since recorded boxing began.

[elmersalsa]

In a way, the great Sugar Ray Robinson was protected. Some fighters that he should have fought in his own weight class, he did not fight: Charley Burley, Holman Williams, Cocoa Kid, Eddie Booker, Tony Zale, etc.

With respect mate, no boxer in history defeated all of his contemporaries, there is always another contender or up n coming undefeated challenger or a World Champion at the weight below, or the weight above. No one has done it all.

So the point that your making is not exclusive to Sugar Ray Robinson and could be used as a criticism toward any fighter since recorded boxing began.

Good points, mate. A fighter cannot fight everybody. But the Burley "duckings" allegations? How can the best fighter at welterweight fight the great Jake LaMotta six times, but not a single fight against one of the best talents of the 1940s in Burley?

The publications of the newspapers and even the ring editor, Nat Fleischer, at the time were asking the boxing government bodies for Burley to get a shot a title, either welter or middleweight. What Happened?

If he would have at least 2 or 3 fighters of the "Black Murderers" row (Ezzard Charles, Charley Burley, Archie Moore, Eddie Booker, Cocoa Kid, or Holman Williams), then, it would have not be something obvious like he ducked Burley. But he did not fight none of them! None! Not even Rocky Graziano or Tony Zale?

Robinson was considered as the best. Why "the best" did not fight the very best?

[Controversial]

Good points, mate. A fighter cannot fight everybody. But the Burley "duckings" allegations? How can the best fighter at welterweight fight the great Jake LaMotta six times, but not a single fight against one of the best talents of the 1940s in Burley?

The publications of the newspapers and even the ring editor, Nat Fleischer, at the time were asking the boxing government bodies for Burley to get a shot a title, either welter or middleweight. What Happened?

Exactly. Its not like Burley was a flash in the pan, I appreciate they are not the official rankings however 'Ring Magazine' had Burley in their top 10 for 100 months (from Sept 1938 to Aug 1947).

[Chuck1052]

Oops! I made a mistake in my previous post. Sugar Ray Robinson won the world welterweight championship in 1946, not 1945. Come to think of it, Robby had been a top fighter for over four years before getting a shot at a world title.

- Chuck Johnston

[Crease]

Good points, mate. A fighter cannot fight everybody. But the Burley "duckings" allegations? How can the best fighter at welterweight fight the great Jake LaMotta six times, but not a single fight against one of the best talents of the 1940s in Burley?

Mate, I'm sure that all of us would have liked to have had a look at a Robinson vs Burley fight - it was unfortunate that it didn't happen. Now, we can all have our own opinions on why the fight did not happen, but no-one can conclusively prove without dispute that it was Sugar Ray's fault it didn't happen.

If he would have at least 2 or 3 fighters of the "Black Murderers" row (Ezzard Charles, Charley Burley, Archie Moore, Eddie Booker, Cocoa Kid, or Holman Williams), then, it would have not be something obvious like he ducked Burley. But he did not fight none of them! None! Not even Rocky Graziano or Tony Zale?

Just to confirm, are we still taking about Robinson here?
First off mate, Robinson did fight Rocky Graziano... And won.

Secondly, Did Archie Moore or Ezzard Charles ever fight below Light Heavyweight - I'm pretty sure that they did not... And Robinson never went above Middleweight...
So those fight were never would have been on the cards.

[elmersalsa]

Good points, mate. A fighter cannot fight everybody. But the Burley "duckings" allegations? How can the best fighter at welterweight fight the great Jake LaMotta six times, but not a single fight against one of the best talents of the 1940s in Burley?

Mate, I'm sure that all of us would have liked to have had a look at a Robinson vs Burley fight - it was unfortunate that it didn't happen. Now, we can all have our own opinions on why the fight did not happen, but no-one can conclusively prove without dispute that it was Sugar Ray's fault it didn't happen.

If he would have at least 2 or 3 fighters of the "Black Murderers" row (Ezzard Charles, Charley Burley, Archie Moore, Eddie Booker, Cocoa Kid, or Holman Williams), then, it would have not be something obvious like he ducked Burley. But he did not fight none of them! None! Not even Rocky Graziano or Tony Zale?

Just to confirm, are we still taking about Robinson here?
First off mate, Robinson did fight Rocky Graziano... And won.

Secondly, Did Archie Moore or Ezzard Charles ever fight below Light Heavyweight - I'm pretty sure that they did not... And Robinson never went above Middleweight...
So those fight were never would have been on the cards.

Burley, a middleweight, fought Charles and Moore being lightheavys. Robinson fought Graziano too late.

How about Zale? How about Cocoa Kid? How about Holman Williams? But we give him credit by fighting LaMotta? six times? From 1942 to 1950, SRR fought many times at middleweight. Why he did not fight Burley?

It seems that the more I think about it, the more SRR keeps being OVERRATED. That is why I got the great Henry Armstrong as the greatest fighter ever.

[Tomasino]

Good points, mate. A fighter cannot fight everybody. But the Burley "duckings" allegations? How can the best fighter at welterweight fight the great Jake LaMotta six times, but not a single fight against one of the best talents of the 1940s in Burley?

Mate, I'm sure that all of us would have liked to have had a look at a Robinson vs Burley fight - it was unfortunate that it didn't happen. Now, we can all have our own opinions on why the fight did not happen, but no-one can conclusively prove without dispute that it was Sugar Ray's fault it didn't happen.

If he would have at least 2 or 3 fighters of the "Black Murderers" row (Ezzard Charles, Charley Burley, Archie Moore, Eddie Booker, Cocoa Kid, or Holman Williams), then, it would have not be something obvious like he ducked Burley. But he did not fight none of them! None! Not even Rocky Graziano or Tony Zale?

Just to confirm, are we still taking about Robinson here?
First off mate, Robinson did fight Rocky Graziano... And won.

Secondly, Did Archie Moore or Ezzard Charles ever fight below Light Heavyweight - I'm pretty sure that they did not... And Robinson never went above Middleweight...
So those fight were never would have been on the cards.

I'm pretty sure both Moore and Charles had many fights as middleweights. Moore had over 50. Robinson fought Maxim for the light heavyweight title.

I don't think you should be so harsh on others when your own knowledge is severely lacking.

[Crease]

SRR fought many times at middleweight. Why he did not fight Burley?

I. DON'T. KNOW.

And this brings me to the same point that I keep making over and over and over again.

None of us can know for sure why the Robinson vs Burley fight did not happen.

None of us were there, so how can any of us be expected to know?

Just because you keep repeating the same question over and over again does not prove your opinion or your reasoning - all your doing is repeating a question.

It does not count for anything. Nor does it prove anything.

[Controversial]

SRRs team wouldn't let him fight many of the decent black fighters at middleweight. He had over 200 fights yet somehow didn't fight guys like Burley, Lytell and Cocoa Kid. Pretty obvious to me what was going on.

[Crease]

I don't think you should be so harsh on others when your own knowledge is severely lacking.

Tomasino, thanks for that, sir.

I'm pretty sure both Moore and Charles had many fights as middleweights.

Regarding Charles - yeah looking at his record he started off as a Middleweight,
(Boxrec only confirms that he had 4 fights within the Middleweight limit, check the numbers)
but how many Middleweight belts did he fight for? NONE. So it's easy to see why he was never rated as a Middleweight in anyone's opinion.

And Charles is and will always be better known for his exploits as a Light Heavy and for his time as a Heavyweight - that's were he had all his key fights and his "big moments".
So you can forgive me for that bit of information slipping by me.

Moore had over 50.

Moore had so many fights, reportedly under many different names that I doubt we will ever know the truth about Archie's full professional record.

That said, Archie is also known better as a Light Heavyweight - he done more in that weight (and Heavyweight) than what he did at Middleweight. And I would also add that he only ever won a state championship upon viewing his record. And that's hardly obscure at all, is it?

Robinson fought Maxim for the light heavyweight title.

I actually knew that. But back in those days, there were different conflicting reports of Robinson's fights being title defences or non title defences. But that one was a Light Heavyweight from everything that I've read.

[elmersalsa]

SRRs team wouldn't let him fight any decent black fighter. He had over 200 fights yet somehow didn't fight guys like Burley, Williams, Cocoa Kid etc... Pretty obvious to me what was going on.

I think you are right. I think the greats Ray Arcel and Emmanuel Steward are telling the truth.

Now I see even the US media protected this man. The Kid Gavilan's fights (TO ME, I AM NOT SURPRISED HE LOST BOTH FIGHTS), why he did not fight the best black fighters out there, and the 5 titles at middleweight comes to me to think that this guy Robinson was OVERRATED.

NEVER fought a BIGGER FIGHTER with tremendous skill.
Went about 91 fights without a loss fighting guys that were less skilled than he was. Just look at the films.
And to me, HE WAS NOT THE MOST COMPLETE FIGHTER EVER. I SEE LOTS OF FLAWS IN HIS ARSENAL. That is the media HOGWASH.

I believe that the great Sugar Ray Leonard was more complete than he was. The same I could say about the greats Roberto Duran, Marvin Hagler, Salvador Sanchez, Ezzard Charles and even Burley.

[raylawpc]

SRRs team wouldn't let him fight any decent black fighter. He had over 200 fights yet somehow didn't fight guys like Burley, Williams, Cocoa Kid etc... Pretty obvious to me what was going on.

I think you are right. I think the greats Ray Arcel and Emmanuel Steward are telling the truth.

Now I see even the US media protected this man. The Kid Gavilan's fights (TO ME, I AM NOT SURPRISED HE LOST BOTH FIGHTS), why he did not fight the best black fighters out there, and the 5 titles at middleweight comes to me to think that this guy Robinson was OVERRATED.

NEVER fought a BIGGER FIGHTER with tremendous skill.
Went about 91 fights without a loss fighting guys that were less skilled than he was. Just look at the films.
And to me, HE WAS NOT THE MOST COMPLETE FIGHTER EVER. I SEE LOTS OF FLAWS IN HIS ARSENAL. That is the media HOGWASH.

I believe that the great Sugar Ray Leonard was more complete than he was. The same I could say about the greats Roberto Duran, Marvin Hagler, Salvador Sanchez, Ezzard Charles and even Burley.

What flaws do you see, Elmer? Please be specific as to the flaw, and in which fight or fights so we can check it out with our own eyes.

What bigger fighters with tremendous skill do you propose that he should have fought?

How is a guy overrated if he wins the title five times?

[Controversial]

Who do people think the best black welterweight and the best black middleweight SRR beat was?

[Crease]

I would be interested in asking the mods to check if elmersalsa and controversial are the same poster.
Maybe we could check their i.p addresses?

[Controversial]

I would be interested in asking the mods to check if elmersalsa and controversial are the same poster.
Maybe we could check their i.p addresses?

Eh? Crease it's a serious question. The thread is about SRR being protected is it not? Crack on with checking IP addresses.

I'm struggling to find a quality black opponent who SRR beat at middleweight. I was surprised myself when I looked into it, I was expecting there to be a few. Maybe Aaron Wade, although he was 34, well past his best having not fought for over two years, and SRR was his last opponent.

So who would you pick then Crease?

[Ambling Alp II]

Who were the top middleweights when Robinson was a full time middleweight in the 1950s? LaMotta (white), Basilio (white), Fullmer (white), and Turpin (mixed heritage). Robinson fought them all at least twice. At the time there just happened to be a lot of good white middleweights.

He fought Gavilan (who was black) twice at welterweight.

Often Fighter A would like to fight another guy, but the Fighter B already has a fight lined up with Fighter C. By the time Fighter B is available, Fighter A has a fight lined up with fighter D. This happens all the time, especially in a period of great depth.

If a fighter isn't in the same weight class as another fighter for a long time, it's not legitimate to say one guy was ducking the other.

[elmersalsa]

Was Sugar Ray Robinson a great fighter? Yes.

Was he the best ever? Not in my view. I pick the great Henry Armstrong.

Was he the most complete fighter ever according to the US media? Not in my view. I see about at least 10 fighters that were MORE COMPLETE than he was: Ezzard Charles, Charley Burley, Roberto Duran, Sugar Ray Leonard, Marvin Hagler, Salvador Sanchez, Eusebio Pedroza, Mike McCallum, Miguel "Happy" Lora, Ismael Laguna, etc.

Robinson WAS NEVER A GREAT INSIDE FIGHTER. He could not block punches like the guys above. And it seems to me when in crisis, did not had a plan B.

Of course, Sugar Ray had a great jab, great chin, could counterpunch and had a big punch. Had great stamina and heart. Great movement around the ring. He was fast at hands and foot, threw great combinations and had ring generalship. But to me, he was not the most complete fighter ever.

[Controversial]

Who were the top middleweights when Robinson was a full time middleweight in the 1950s? LaMotta (white), Basilio (white), Fullmer (white), and Turpin (mixed heritage). Robinson fought them all at least twice. At the time there just happened to be a lot of good white middleweights.

He fought Gavilan (who was black) twice at welterweight.

Often Fighter A would like to fight another guy, but the Fighter B already has a fight lined up with Fighter C. By the time Fighter B is available, Fighter A has a fight lined up with fighter D. This happens all the time, especially in a period of great depth.

If a fighter isn't in the same weight class as another fighter for a long time, it's not legitimate to say one guy was ducking the other.

Boxing was full go corruption in that era. Was it just co-incidence that all top middleweights were white and the decent black fighters weren't given title shots? Personally I think its a bit short sighted to think there wasn't an element of 'picking' going on. We can all make excuses why certain fights never came off however it seems odd to me that Robinson never fought any great black fighters at middleweight. It certainly wasn't because there wasn't any to fight.