mjaco wrote: ↑08 May 2020, 14:59
BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote: ↑07 May 2020, 19:54
- Thus far you've discussed the mythology of legend, not factual content.
Henry Hascup is all encompassing and was up for HOF inclusion in 2019, but boxing being boxing chose the Compufraud creators.
Boxrec is your friend starting with the JJOHNSON link where the ages and novice records of McVea, Langford and Jeannette are spelled out when he faced them. The first contender types Johnson faced either KOed him or won decisions.
https://boxrec.com/en/proboxer/001187
Eventually Johnson won and defended the colored title, but when the press clamored for his title shot, he lost to Hart and Jeanette, so Jeff retired with no credible contenders left and Hart assumed the title.
Re Dempsey: Click those links and you can see Jeannette/retired, and Langford/dropping fights to Wills by 1920.
Godfrey/Dempsey spar partner busy getting KOed by Langford while Big Bill Tate/Dempsey spar mate was also nicking Langford for decisions. Only Wills left standing as I mentioned.
Oh, extra credit for comparing the first half of JJ Jeffries' opponents with JJOHNSON results. Jeff dominated the guys who were KOing and winning against JJOHNSON.
And checkout December 1913 when Langford dominated Jeannette in Paris for the world title after the French strip JJOHNSON for lack of credible opponents and performance.
Just the facts, ma'am.
Your "facts" are a little misleading.
1. What I wrote was "regardless of when he fought them" on Johnson fighting and defeating other good black fighters. I never said he beat any of them in their prime. But as I pointed out, the simple truth is in his career he fought both good black and white fighters. Dempsey, with, as far as I know, only two exceptions against little known black fighters years before he became champion, fought only white boxers.
2. Jeanette fought twice in 1919 after Dempsey beat Willard and actually had his final bout three years after Dempsey won the title, though I'd agree he was almost certainly past it by then. Of course Dempsey could have fought him at any time prior to his winning the championship, but did not. Excluding his losses to Wills, whom almost every heavyweight of that time (possibly even Dempsey) would have lost to, Langford, in the two years after Dempsey won the title, was 30-2-7 counting newspaper decisions according to Boxrec, so certainly still a more than capable fighter. Also I explicitly mentioned Godfrey as a credible contender toward the latter part of Dempsey's reign, not at the beginning when he was a novice fighter, though admittedly he probably didn't hit his peak until after Dempsey lost the title. The fact Godfrey served as a sparring partner is also not that relevant as Larry Holmes was a one time sparring partner of Ali. And you conveniently ignored all mention of Kid Norfolk who was certainly an elite fighter during Dempsey's reign and had fought successfully against heavyweights.
3. I don't know where you're getting the discussion of Jeffries opponents vs Johnson's opponents from. I never mentioned Jeffries at all in my previous post. And all I said about him in my initial post was that the talent pool he fought in was notably weaker than later eras because boxing was almost entirely confined to the English speaking world in his era. That was also true of the era Johnson fought in.
My primary point was never that Jack Johnson was a better heavyweight than Jack Dempsey (though in my opinion he does rate higher). But rather that if you're going to rate people historically, you need to consider the entire picture and the context of the times they fought in. Too many boxing fans grew up reading the old scribes like Nat Fleischer and taking their word that Jim Jeffries and Jack Dempsey were unconquerable gods. Thus their greatness becomes emotionally carved in stone for some and questioning how good they were becomes heresy.
Dempsey was a historically great fighter and a sports icon. He certainly doesn't need me or you to defend his career. He may have been willing to fight all those fighters I named but was prevented from doing so by the circumstances of the times. But the fact he never, at any point, met many of his potentially toughest opponents should lower our estimation of his historical ranking a little bit in any fair and logical analysis of his career.
- Big topic with you a bit of a splatter painting and me responding to your 3rd post.
1. You stated JJOHNSON beat a number of elite black fighters, implying prime. He did not-fact.
2. Blah, Blah.
3. You mentioned Jeffries in your first post limiting him to English speakers and then drawing the color line on Dempsey. I doubt you ever contemplated the world demographics prior to the 1960s, but in America the only two sports of note were 1-baseball, 2-Boxing, and baseball teams difficult to make.
As mentioned, black or white, jeff better results than JJ against common opponents prior to the title.
And are you seriously white shaming Dempsey for being a western fighter in a low population of Blacks who were concentrated in the East? Did you know at the time part of Dempsey fearsome reputation was the belief he was half Indian? And as Kid Blackie hitting up the mining camps barefisted, he doubtless fought many as otherwise blacks then were in the US Army. I could go on, but...
Nat Fleischer was the first journalist to compile an all time great list, 6 in the beginning, and lo and behold JJOHNSON was always #1.
Moreover, google Nat and the push to make Ali great where he was buried in letters demanding Ali be in the top ten in spite of his list for retired heavies only. And this after Frazier tore Ali a new on! And they weren't calling for Joe to be ranked!
Pretty much informs your unknowing opinions it would appear, but as Jesus reminds, "Let those without sin cast the first stones"
Amen.
