BoxRec

I don't hate them, I just think they're boring and have weak resumes.

I think that if the Klitschko's fought their respective careers entirely in the Usa or UK then they would not have the same winning records as they get away with an awful lot of infringements that wouldnt have got away with in Germany/russia/ukraine...

evrenb wrote:I think that if the Klitschko's fought their respective careers entirely in the Usa or UK then they would not have the same winning records as they get away with an awful lot of infringements that wouldnt have got away with in Germany/russia/ukraine...

That pretty much goes for any boxer who fights in his home country.

Ezzard wrote:

evrenb wrote:I think that if the Klitschko's fought their respective careers entirely in the Usa or UK then they would not have the same winning records as they get away with an awful lot of infringements that wouldnt have got away with in Germany/russia/ukraine...

That pretty much goes for any boxer who fights in his home country.

I tend to disagree with that. In america for example I see the referees as impartial. . . I will cite Chavez vs Taylor 1 - Steele stopped his own man (usa) with two seconds left. .

I think you'll find Chavez was his man in that one.

Have you ever seen an Andre Ward fight?

The man who makes the money gets all the breaks.

evrenb wrote:

Ezzard wrote:

evrenb wrote:I think that if the Klitschko's fought their respective careers entirely in the Usa or UK then they would not have the same winning records as they get away with an awful lot of infringements that wouldnt have got away with in Germany/russia/ukraine...

That pretty much goes for any boxer who fights in his home country.

I tend to disagree with that. In america for example I see the referees as impartial. . . I will cite Chavez vs Taylor 1 - Steele stopped his own man (usa) with two seconds left. .

Wasn't Steele pretty much Don Kings man? Though I have to say I agree with the stoppage of Taylor.

Ezzard wrote:I think you'll find Chavez was his man in that one.

Have you ever seen an Andre Ward fight?

The man who makes the money gets all the breaks.

No doubt about it, King handed Steele his cash.

Probably pulled the same stunt in Ruddock vs Tyson I and for the same reason.

Ezzard wrote:I malign someone who has ducked a legitimate fight.

I don't particularly like them. I admire the fact they turn up in shape and don't act like idiots...but that's about it.

Fans should save their bile for someone like Bowe who actually avoided a fight with Lewis and cheated the fans out of the spectacle.

Who won the fight when Wladimir took on Lennox Lewis? I missed that one.

Forgot that one. He ducked Larry Holmes too. And Joe Louis.

Evidently you thought I was joking about Lewis. I wasn't. The fight could have happened during 2001, 2002, or 2003. Instead Klitschko took on:

Derrick Jefferson
Charles Shufford
Frans Botha
A way past it Ray Mercer
Jameel McCline
Corrie Sanders

He never even took on Tua, Rahman,Ruiz or Golota.

So yeah, I think he deserves some criticism for not fighting better opponents.

Evidently you thought I was joking about Lewis. I wasn't. The fight could have happened during 2001, 2002, or 2003. Instead Klitschko took on:

Derrick Jefferson
Charles Shufford
Frans Botha
A way past it Ray Mercer
Jameel McCline
Corrie Sanders

He never even took on Tua, Rahman,Ruiz or Golota.

So yeah, I think he deserves some criticism for not fighting better opponents.

No need to say it twice though

The post so nice, he made it twice.

I still vividly remember the head-scratching disbelief worldwide when Wlad K exhumed Corrie Sanders. It was an utterly incomprehensible opponent, given who else was out there and what Wlad was being sold to us as. It was matchmaking at its most evil and cynical. On boxing forums, threads had titles such as: 'Try to defend Wladimir for fighting Corrie Sanders'.

When Sanders effortlessly demolished Wlad despite being very old, very fat, very rusty and very fragile, I laughed probably harder than I ever have in my life.

It was clear then why Wlad had been steered away from aggressive, attacking fighters. Not much has changed, bar the Brewster 'hiccup'.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Much like Wlad realizes his frailty and hugs to avoid getting hit, marciano threw constant punches and closed the distance very well. His punches came from a variety of angles and every one of them hurt. I wouldn't call any of the 4 supremely skilled,though Jack would be the most skilled, but Marciano and Dempsey were greater fighters. Vitali's skill is size. He has no punch variety and little power. He's a very tough man and that size would certainly cause trouble for many ATG Heavyweights, but his skills are nothing to talk about.

Nobody would beat Marciano or Dempsey simply by jabbing, they would absolutely force Wlad to fight in close where he has no clue.

Your essentially saying they would win because they are bigger. That's not without validity, it's just a line of thinking I can't subscribe too.

I think Wlad and Vitali are both skillful. They each have a very good sense of distance that allows them to generally keep their opponents close enough to hit but far away enough for punches being thrown back to fall short. To add to that, they each have good footwork--Wlad's being quicker and Vitali being more skilled at punching while moving back--which makes them difficult to hit. Vitali's awkward head movement also causes many opponents to miss even when they manage to get fairly close. They are both fairly accurate with their punches too, and Wlad in particular has a very good jab and straight right, both thrown with textbook technique. While Wlad does hold a lot, I would also say that he's skilled at tying opponents up and using his body in such a way that makes it difficult for them to do anything effective out of the clinch while also draining them of energy. Both of them possess impressive talents as well, Wlad's being his great power and good speed for a heavyweight, Vitali's being his impressive chin and stamina.

So, when you factor in these skills with the size advantages the Klitschkos have, I think they'd beat much smaller pressure fighters like Marciano and Dempsey. The same combination of skill and ability also leads me to believe that Bowe and Lewis would beat Marciano and Dempsey.

dempseyfire wrote:Dempsey was the fastest and best skilled pressure fighting heavyweight ever. The guy could come in weaving on his toes round after round with explosive aggressive springs and punches, quickly changing angles. Extremely difficult style to fight that requires incredible conditioning and athleticism, and in turn an incredibly difficult style for anyone to face. The pressure fighters the Klitschkos have faced are flat-footed fatties (Sam Peter, Chris Arreola, Derek Chisora) who come straight forward and have amateurish skills. The difference would be night and day. Heck, the two guys Wlad has faced since Sanders who had any sort of punching power and fast hands (Ibragimov and Haye . . neither bigger in their natural frames than Dempsey) put him into a shell and they are a class below both Dempsey and Marciano.

Based on what I've seen I don't think Dempsey was very fast. No doubt his speed was good, but it wasn't blinding speed that I think would befuddle bigger men like those in question. He clearly had fast feet as well, but again, I don't think they were extremely fast. His defense when he was moving in on opponents was fairly basic, and based on what I've seen and read he got hit plenty. Moreover, he was essentially a light-heavyweight by today's standards and I don't think his aggressive style lends itself well to beating much larger opponents who would have around 60 pounds and 4-6 inches on him. It's one thing to overpower relatively small men, but it's another to do the same to relative giants, and while Willard fit that description I see him as being significantly less able than the 4 modern super-heavyweights mentioned by the OP.

Marciano was very limited skill wise from what I've seen, and he wouldn't even have the fast feet and hands that Dempsey could use to exploit bigger but slower opponents. While very strong relative to many of his opponents, I think his style was very basic and easy to figure out. Obviously his opponents could not handle his physical abilities, but they weren't skilled 6'5"+ 250 pound fighters like I think Lewis, Bowe, and the Klitschkos are. If Marciano tried to play his usual game of coming forward and out muscling his opponents, I think he'd get picked off and overpowered.

I also think Haye and Ibragimov (who each hardly won a round) were naturally quite a bit bigger than Marciano, and Haye clearly has a larger frame in my view than Dempsey did. I also think he's faster than Dempsey and harder to hit.

dempseyfire wrote:Klitschko gets credit for beating a natural 175 lber with man boobs and love handles(Chambers) and Fast Eddie was far inferior to Carpentier.

No doubt Eddie isn't a natural heavyweight, but I think he'd be fairly tight at 175 and that's factoring in re-hydration. Carpentier was 172 in an era where fighters didn't drop nearly as much weight the day before fights, and I think Carpentier would be suited for middleweight or lower today, not light-heavyweight like Eddie possibly is.

So, I think the 4 modern super-heavyweights would each have the edge over Dempsey and Marciano. While I can certainly see the cases for Dempsey wins, I'd give Marciano only a very small chance of beating them.

Bowe and lewis were much more skilled than either Klitschko. Not even in the same ballpark.

I agree that Bowe and Lewis were more talented but this isn't a Klitschko vs Bowe/Lewis thread, and we all know already that you don't think the Klitschkos are that good.

I just responded to you quoting me. You grouped them together and I find that laughable.

I don't mean to suggest they're on the same level, as I think Bowe and Lewis were definitely more skilled. I meant that in each case it would be a combo of size and ability that leads them to victory, not just one or the other.

It's certainly possible, it's just hard to gauge the Klitschko's historically because of their abysmal opposition. Vitali showed he could perform well against Lennox in defeat, neither have beaten anyone near that level. While I can't discount size, Wlad's jab and hold is made for someone like Marciano to abuse in close. Most of his opponents are quite content to clinch, Dempsey and Rocky knew how to work in there.

For those that think the Kltischkos height and weight would be too much to overcome, what about Valuev? He had about the same size advantage over the Klitschkos as they had over Dempsey. Therefore they would have little chance against Valuev, right?

Ambling Alp II wrote:For those that think the Kltischkos height and weight would be too much to overcome, what about Valuev? He had about the same size advantage over the Klitschkos as they had over Dempsey. Therefore they would have little chance against Valuev, right?

The difference, between Valuev and the Klitschko brothers, is pure athleticism.

Valuev was big. Valuev was strong. Valuev was hard to hurt. But his mobility was like that of a skyscraper, and outside of that long jab of his, he didn't put combinations together all too well.

Marciano, Dempsey, etc. would of not found it too difficult to get on the inside of a man such as Valuev, who presents himself as a big target. Mind you, while John Ruiz was about the most boring fighter to watch, I believe he was robbed twice against Valuev--- he showed how easy it really was to get on the inside of a giant like that. Many were simply too afraid, because Valuev was so big and scary looking, but Ruiz showed the openings were there to be taken. Chagaev also showed this to be true.

Isn't that athleticism relative though, Henry?

Sure, they look athletic versus the long, slimey line of old men and overweights. But they looked like stiff, gassed, vulnerable musclemen under the attacks of Brewster, Lewis, Sanders, Puritty . . . It's hard to watch Byrd/Vitali and think of Vitali as 'athletic'.

They need a fatman or a facefirst weight lifter to look in any way quick, nimble or fluid. The few times they have ventured outside of that opponent (very few opportunities for them to do so in this era) they have been poor and puzzled and defeated, inside the distance.

I think Wladimir was a better fighter post 2003. Can't really make concessions for the Brewster loss of 2004 given that Steward was in his corner and Wlad was now 28 years old with some 40+ fights. The Purity loss was partially the fault of his management for agreeing to a 12 round fight seeing that Wlad had never been beyond eight and had only even gone that long maybe once. He was well ahead of Purity until he gassed late. A 10 rounder might have saved him a loss while still giving him the experience that he needed against a cagey upper tier journeymen-fringe type. The criticisms of his opposition over the past 10 years are valid to some extent. I wouldn't say that everyone he's fought is a "bum", but agree that it pales when contrasted to challengers of previous periods. If nothing else the guy has beaten everyone who was placed in front of him over the past decade and has championship longevity that rates up their with some of the longest reigning champs. It is what it is...