BoxRec

Ambling Alp II wrote:I have said all a long that a Dempsey would not have beaten a prime Ali. (I have said many times on other threads that nobody else would have either.) I think most people would pick Ali; and have on this thread.

Clay dominated almost the entire Cooper fight except for the the 3 count knockdown. That being said, he had not reached his best; maybe Dempsey could have beaten this version, though I would still lean toward Ali (Clay).
However you can do that quite a bit; match one guy at this best against another guy who either hasn't reached his best or is past it. Really isn't fair, though it can be interesting.

Ezzard wrote:Dropped by Cooper and in serious trouble. But then in his next fight he looked as good as he ever would.

And Cooper was no bigger than Dempsey.

I think the slower a guy was on their feet the easier it was for Ali. I think that's a bigger factor than size when matching against Ali.

Ambling Alp II wrote:He wasn't in serious trouble against Cooper. He was up at 3 and looked fine. He looked great against Liston, though it wasn't his best fight.
The Jones fight was even before the first Cooper fight, but yeah Jones fought a very good fight and was competitive. Too bad his career kind of fell apart. Would have been interesting to see against Ali during Ali's title reign.
I do agree that everything else being even, fighters fast their feet would be much more competitive against Ali. Hand speed would be helpful as well of course. Punching accuracy (the most underrated facet of boxing) would be crucial as well.

The one guy who I always thought would give a prime Ali serious trouble would be a prime Holyfield. He not only had very good speed but was extremely accurate. He probably would land better against Ali than anyone. If your opponent is better than you, your best chance is to unpredictable and mix things up. This is another thing Holyfield was good at. Holyfield had the rare ability to alternately box well and slug well.

His problem of course was his mediocre defense; Ali would hit him very easily.

Broomhall wrote:

Ambling Alp II wrote:I guess the answer is yes to my question.

I said on September 3, (before you even commented on this thread) that Ali would beat Dempsey. I said again several times after that. Look it up.

Yes, some of Foster's heavyweight opponents were better than Tunney's. That doesn't mean that Foster was better. Foster fought 4 quality heavyweights. He went 0-4, and lost badly each time. He did beat a few journeyman heavyweights, none of them as good as a declining Dempsey. Tunney was clearly the better heavyweight.
You were the one on the other thread talking about the crap about Tunney fighting farmhands and cowboys. I and others pointed out how stupid that was.
As for Tunney's chin, the Dempsey knockdown was the only time he was knocked down in his entire career. Foster was decked more times as a light heavyweight and as a heavyweight.

ah I see another man who resorts to insults when losing a debate. I put a point of view, you disagree, albeit you are now coming round to my view that Ali would have beat Dempsey, but it is sad you have to resort to insults.

Tunney was not clearly the better heavy or light heavy than Foster. Tunney was fighting at a time when the sport was largely unregulated and when reasonably decent fighters could build up impressive records, much like Buck Smith did. I believe Foster would have beaten Tunney, and I also believe Archie Moore, Saad Muhammed, Roy Jones and maybe even Billy Conn would have beaten Dempsey and Tunney.

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:- This notion that Jack Dempsey couldn't compete against Ali is just more modern revisionism by poorly studied fans.

Sure, they just loved to see Ali dance and recite schoolboy singsong doggerel, and to be fair, Ali clearly had goods to beat most anyone...except specifically Joe Frazier when it counted the most. Joe Frazier's style happened to be derived from Dempsey's original style that has been copied ever since. In 6 oz gloves in full sway, he was a rare combination of speed, offensive footwork that actually counts for something, bone crushing power, instincts, and will. "I can't sing and I can't dance, but I can lick any SOB in the house."

We can't see any version of Ali saying anything close to this save in his wider, protected public sector when the media lights were on him. Liston slapped him silly in Vegas before their first fight and sent him running.

Fact: Nobody knows how a prime trilogy would turn out, but you sillies soil yourself with your poor renditions of how this fight might play out. Dempsey loved big fighters to chop down and handled all the fancy dans in his prime that he needed to. Never stunk up the ring like Ali either. His last three fights were considerably better than Ali's last three, you can bet the farm on it.

JohnnyCross wrote:

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:- This notion that Jack Dempsey couldn't compete against Ali is just more modern revisionism by poorly studied fans.

Sure, they just loved to see Ali dance and recite schoolboy singsong doggerel, and to be fair, Ali clearly had goods to beat most anyone...except specifically Joe Frazier when it counted the most. Joe Frazier's style happened to be derived from Dempsey's original style that has been copied ever since. In 6 oz gloves in full sway, he was a rare combination of speed, offensive footwork that actually counts for something, bone crushing power, instincts, and will. "I can't sing and I can't dance, but I can lick any SOB in the house."

We can't see any version of Ali saying anything close to this save in his wider, protected public sector when the media lights were on him. Liston slapped him silly in Vegas before their first fight and sent him running.

Fact: Nobody knows how a prime trilogy would turn out, but you sillies soil yourself with your poor renditions of how this fight might play out. Dempsey loved big fighters to chop down and handled all the fancy dans in his prime that he needed to. Never stunk up the ring like Ali either. His last three fights were considerably better than Ali's last three, you can bet the farm on it.

Liston/Frazier/Foreman/Shavers could'nt knock Ali out but Dempsey.............I don't know what my ball's are worth but i'll bet them on it that Dempsey can't Knock the greatest chin to be called Heavyweight Champ out that just crazy talk

I know I brought up the trilogy and said Ali probably takes it, but after reading this forum topic, I'm sure that I'm one of the few on here that gives Dempsey real credit against Ali. I realize similarities with Frazier except Dempsey seemed badder, meaner more able...but Ali just always found a way and he's real big and fast and aghrr idk! My gut tells me Ali but Dempsey is a very tempting underdog to choose for me. And I would not be surprised to see him win. I can definitely see Dempsey knocking Ali out cold no chin is unknockable and Dempsey had strong enough punch

HomicideHenry wrote:... both perspectives are wrong, but not so far off the mark that it doesnt warrant one to believe that it could be true of either man.

Broomhall wrote:Ali for me easily and probably by stoppage,

aajayunlimited wrote:Joe had a defensive style that was as hard to hit cleanly by boxers in history as any other style(harder to hit cleanly by boxers than Patterson or Tyson, because he was more dynamic in head movement ... Besides all that, Frazier could hit Ali or any boxer because his arms were short and could get inside of longer reach and he was very, very accurate with precise timing. For an added bonus, Frazier's took any boxer's punches for 15 rounds ... VERDICT: DEMPSEY LOSES LIKELY BY TKO(cuts) AND MAYBE KO(if he can't take hard fast punching).