BoxRec

They can certainly mean something to you. Honestly I've never heard of them, but I don't pay attention to any rankings anymore. All i meant was they have no affect on the sport, not that it's a waste of time. The only rankings that matter are the ones from the corrupt alphabet organizations that actually lead to fights being made.[/quote][/quote] You would have heard of them because they were the IBO ratings and you liked them. IWBR the independent world boxing rankings started in 1991, first published in 1993, were licenced to the IBO from January 1st 1999 until February 2014. I have had three approaches from sanctioning bodies wishing to use them and am considering options, if I cant agree terms and then I cant get enough support independently I will pack it in. If you spend a little time understanding how they work (and they work more on a ladder system than points) they are exactly what most people that moan about boxing on forums want. In fact the IBO was the abc that the fans should have got behind, totally non corrupt, not focused on money and with genuine interest to improve the sport.

Dennis wrote:Out of all the cruiserweights in the United States, with whom would you like to compare Jordan?
According to BoxRec there are 193 of them. Jordan is the only one on the list to have more than 10 wins and no losses or draws. Mike Wilson in 10-0 and doing well but he turned pro in 2009. Jordan is the only boxer on the list to amass 15 fights in less than 2 years. Most have been pro for many years to accumulate 15 fights.
Even if you were to compare him against U.S. heavyweights there are very few who can compare.

Dennis - To me that is exactly the thing not to say. His wins are meaningless he might as well be 0-0 or 30-0. Until he fights someone reasonable he is just mug fighting. Galen Brown is just about top 200, but there is absolutely no point in fighting John Corn for the purpose of Jordan learning anything, in fact it is possible a fighter can go backwards. If Jordan Shimmell fights and beats someone top 100 it will shut mouths, then move him up the ladder. I do understand that £$£$ make fights difficult and that some decent fighters wont want a Jordan loss on their record unless they get plenty dollars. Defend that USBO title!

Lennox wrote:

Dennis wrote:Out of all the cruiserweights in the United States, with whom would you like to compare Jordan?
According to BoxRec there are 193 of them. Jordan is the only one on the list to have more than 10 wins and no losses or draws. Mike Wilson in 10-0 and doing well but he turned pro in 2009. Jordan is the only boxer on the list to amass 15 fights in less than 2 years. Most have been pro for many years to accumulate 15 fights.
Even if you were to compare him against U.S. heavyweights there are very few who can compare.

Dennis - To me that is exactly the thing not to say. His wins are meaningless he might as well be 0-0 or 30-0. Until he fights someone reasonable he is just mug fighting. Galen Brown is just about top 200, but there is absolutely no point in fighting John Corn for the purpose of Jordan learning anything, in fact it is possible a fighter can go backwards. If Jordan Shimmell fights and beats someone top 100 it will shut mouths, then move him up the ladder. I do understand that £$£$ make fights difficult and that some decent fighters wont want a Jordan loss on their record unless they get plenty dollars. Defend that USBO title!

I agree if he fights someone in the top 100 I might shut my mouth. Defend the USBO title really? I understand the issue to find fopponents. I can understand that but to justify these opponents is where I have problem.
Now if he can't get fights and these are stay busy fights I understand but to defend his opponent isn't understandable.

Lennox wrote: You would have heard of them because they were the IBO ratings and you liked them. IWBR the independent world boxing rankings started in 1991, first published in 1993, were licenced to the IBO from January 1st 1999 until February 2014. I have had three approaches from sanctioning bodies wishing to use them and am considering options, if I cant agree terms and then I cant get enough support independently I will pack it in. If you spend a little time understanding how they work (and they work more on a ladder system than points) they are exactly what most people that moan about boxing on forums want. In fact the IBO was the abc that the fans should have got behind, totally non corrupt, not focused on money and with genuine interest to improve the sport.

I liked the IBO rankings?

I've never looked at the IBO rankings in my entire life.

Lennox wrote:His wins are meaningless he might as well be 0-0 or 30-0.

This is silly. Experience is rarely meaningless. Especially when your 24 months into a pro career. Some of the best fighters in history have fought guys that would make Mr Corn look damn near like Sonny Liston in the 2nd year of their legendary careers. There are bigger things here @ play then rankings & like Dennis brought up "sh!t happens" & you're lucky to just be fighting @ all sometimes.

Alright Lennox I think I found out why your ratings are silly. I know whove been wanting me to investigate for a couple days now.

For the next 12 months a losing fighter is tagged, so if he wins a fight or fights his points may be shared with anyone who had beaten him in the last 12 months and it works the other way that if you lose a fight you may be buffered by an opponent who you have beaten.

This would seem to explain why losing to a guy in March could positively effect your rank in November. So cats who fight a lot of good fighters can get some bonus points for the fighter who beat him 12 months after the fact. I don't hate the goal you're trying to achieve of keeping guys ahead of guys they beat, but I think potentially rewarding guys for losing isn't the way to do it. If I'm misunderstanding something here feel free to explain it further & use a real life example.

Reggie - yes you have misunderstood it.

Tagging works like this and they last 12 months:

Chris Arreolla loses to Bermane Stiverne..... lets say the points pre fight were 311 v 206
after the fight they are Stiverne 247 Arreolla 246.

Areolla beats Seth Mitchell their points pre fight were say 246 v 271

Areeolla gets say 88 points .... but they have to be shared with Stiverne so each get 44
Stiverne now 291, Arreolla 290.

If Arreola has further wins it effects Stiverne, If Stiverne loses it effects Arreolla. If Stiverne wins it makes no difference to Arreola and if Arreola loses his next fight that makes no difference to Stiverne.

In losing the reverse is true.

If someone loses a fight and are negatively tagged they dont gain points by another person winning.

A fighter can only be effected in a tag by the way he was tagged.

Sad - Apologies then I am thinking of someone else then.

Wins are never meaningless. To fight for titles, you usually need a certain number of fights/wins to do so. TV networks like to have certain records too.

world ranked: To which U.S. cruiserweight will you compare Jordan?

Dennis wrote:Wins are never meaningless. To fight for titles, you usually need a certain number of fights/wins to do so. TV networks like to have certain records too.

world ranked: To which U.S. cruiserweight will you compare Jordan?

Dennis - The win over John Corn would do absolutely nothing to make Jordan Shimmell a better fighter unless he is much much worse than I think he is. No TV network unless they are clowns ( I do not know of any as most have an expert) would not be impressed by a John Corn win. I actually think mug fighting does harm, the only redeeming bit could be that other managers/ promoters think Jordan must be bad to fight that calibre and so agree to fight. All that is eliminated of course as soon as Jordan has a measured win. I accept early in a career wins build confidence, but at Jordan's stage now the mug fighting means nothing.

Dennis wrote:Wins are never meaningless. To fight for titles, you usually need a certain number of fights/wins to do so. TV networks like to have certain records too.

world ranked: To which U.S. cruiserweight will you compare Jordan?

I'm not really comparing him to any US crusers because their so few decent ones. They just move up to heavyweight. In a division where most of the important fights to get are overseas. The resume at least has to have fighters outside the midwest.
People like Eric Fields, Zach Page, Denton Daley not just the midwest circuit of part time fighters. Anyone that can get you
a top 15 ranking with the sanaction bodies. Honestly in this times its probably going to be hard to promote a US cruserweight.
Ask BJ Flores or Steve Cunningham.

Lennox wrote:No TV network unless they are clowns ( I do not know of any as most have an expert) would not be impressed by a John Corn win. I actually think mug fighting does harm ....

So they ARE impressed? Be careful with double negatives, they will get you every time.
We wanted a tougher opponent but couldn't get one to take the fight and trust me the purse offered was more than many of these guys have ever been paid. So I chose to keep Jordan active which is important. Fans will soon see Jordan boxing on bigger shows.

Dennis wrote:

Lennox wrote:No TV network unless they are clowns ( I do not know of any as most have an expert) would not be impressed by a John Corn win. I actually think mug fighting does harm ....

So they ARE impressed? Be careful with double negatives, they will get you every time.
We wanted a tougher opponent but couldn't get one to take the fight and trust me the purse offered was more than many of these guys have ever been paid. So I chose to keep Jordan active which is important. Fans will soon see Jordan boxing on bigger shows.

Why not post a list of all the guys that turned you down and what they were offered?

The win over John Corn would do absolutely nothing to make Jordan Shimmell a better fighter unless he is much much worse than I think he is. No TV network unless they are clowns ( I do not know of any as most have an expert) would not be impressed by a John Corn win. I actually think mug fighting does harm, the only redeeming bit could be that other managers/ promoters think Jordan must be bad to fight that calibre and so agree to fight. All that is eliminated of course as soon as Jordan has a measured win. I accept early in a career wins build confidence, but at Jordan's stage now the mug fighting means nothing.[/quote]

I would tend to agree with that because Corn, I believe, isn't even rated in the top 500. Having said that, he KOd a 15-1 fighter, albeit a not very good 15-1 fighter just one month before. Two months before that he beat an experienced Darren Reed. Jordan has only been pro 2 years. I think it's ok, because he is also beating guys with winning records and beating experienced journeymen.

Boxing fans will just have to wait to see Jordan on the big stage in the near future.

world ranked wrote:Compare his resume to another another rising cruserweight with the same number of fights and tell me these are meaningful fights.

This is what you said. Jordan lives in Michigan, USA so I think comparing him to USA cruiserweights is reasonable and that is what you asked. I responded that there aren't any cruiserweights who compare. Jordan has been moved quicker than the others and has more fights and wins in less than 2 years than any other cruiserweight from the United States. He is the only U.S. cruiserweight boxer with more than 10 wins who hasn't lost or had a draw. For those reasons I would say that things are moving along perfectly.

Tony1244 wrote:I would tend to agree with that because Corn, I believe, isn't even rated in the top 500. Having said that, he KOd a 15-1 fighter, albeit a not very good 15-1 fighter just one month before. Two months before that he beat an experienced Darren Reed. Jordan has only been pro 2 years. I think it's ok, because he is also beating guys with winning records and beating experienced journeymen.

Correct

Dennis wrote:

world ranked wrote:Compare his resume to another another rising cruserweight with the same number of fights and tell me these are meaningful fights.

This is what you said. Jordan lives in Michigan, USA so I think comparing him to USA cruiserweights is reasonable and that is what you asked. I responded that there aren't any cruiserweights who compare. Jordan has been moved quicker than the others and has more fights and wins in less than 2 years than any other cruiserweight from the United States. He is the only U.S. cruiserweight boxer with more than 10 wins who hasn't lost or had a draw. For those reasons I would say that things are moving along perfectly.

How about fight some those guys that have a loss or two. Every fight suppose to bring something to tthe table. I don't think he's learning from a one round blowouts. The reason why these fighters take these fights are just as important. I just think being this far along he should have at least one 50/50 fight. None of these guys were expected to be 50/50 with him. Or even
70/30. I understand every fight cant be world level or step ups. But I just don't see one fight that he didn't suppose to win.

world ranked wrote:

Dennis wrote:

world ranked wrote:Compare his resume to another another rising cruserweight with the same number of fights and tell me these are meaningful fights.

This is what you said. Jordan lives in Michigan, USA so I think comparing him to USA cruiserweights is reasonable and that is what you asked. I responded that there aren't any cruiserweights who compare. Jordan has been moved quicker than the others and has more fights and wins in less than 2 years than any other cruiserweight from the United States. He is the only U.S. cruiserweight boxer with more than 10 wins who hasn't lost or had a draw. For those reasons I would say that things are moving along perfectly.

How about fight some those guys that have a loss or two. Every fight suppose to bring something to tthe table. I don't think he's learning from a one round blowouts. The reason why these fighters take these fights are just as important. I just think being this far along he should have at least one 50/50 fight. None of these guys were expected to be 50/50 with him. Or even
70/30. I understand every fight cant be world level or step ups. But I just don't see one fight that he didn't suppose to win.

This conversation is ridiculous. Theres a ton of guys that spent their first two years fighting completely bs guys. Elite level guys I'm talking about.

I'd say Jordan is on the higher end of things with opponents. There are cats two years into their pro career or with less than 15 fights that are still fighting guys with losing records. Everybody isn't capable of being moved up like Floyd in their first 24 months. It is clear as day to me Jordan is being moved at present time in a way that will best help him become the best boxer he can become.

This is a volatile time for a pro boxer (the first 4-5 yrs) so Jordan's career could change on a dime & if he's fighting these same type of guys on the reg 36 months into his pro career it's gonna be a different story, but where he's @ right now is above average for a guy with 24 months & 15 fights of experience & I think most of you guys realize that while sh!tting on Jordan's progress is the odd thing here.

ReggieDiggs wrote:

world ranked wrote:How about fight some those guys that have a loss or two. Every fight suppose to bring something to tthe table. I don't think he's learning from a one round blowouts. The reason why these fighters take these fights are just as important. I just think being this far along he should have at least one 50/50 fight. None of these guys were expected to be 50/50 with him. Or even
70/30. I understand every fight cant be world level or step ups. But I just don't see one fight that he didn't suppose to win.

This conversation is ridiculous. Theres a ton of guys that spent their first two years fighting completely bs guys. Elite level guys I'm talking about.

I'd say Jordan is on the higher end of things with opponents. There are cats two years into their pro career or with less than 15 fights that are still fighting guys with losing records. Everybody isn't capable of being moved up like Floyd in their first 24 months. It is clear as day to me Jordan is being moved at present time in a way that will best help him become the best boxer he can become.

This is a volatile time for a pro boxer (the first 4-5 yrs) so Jordan's career could change on a dime & if he's fighting these same type of guys on the reg 36 months into his pro career it's gonna be a different story, but where he's @ right now is above average for a guy with 24 months & 15 fights of experience & I think most of you guys realize that while sh!tting on Jordan's progress is the odd thing here.

Thanks Reggie. Some comments seem to imply that there are other U.S. cruiserweights being advanced quicker than Jordan but there aren't. There are very few U.S. heavyweights being advanced quicker. I hope to see Jordan at 18-0 by the end of the year.

Nice post Reggie; I agree.

Y

Dennis wrote:

ReggieDiggs wrote:

world ranked wrote:How about fight some those guys that have a loss or two. Every fight suppose to bring something to tthe table. I don't think he's learning from a one round blowouts. The reason why these fighters take these fights are just as important. I just think being this far along he should have at least one 50/50 fight. None of these guys were expected to be 50/50 with him. Or even
70/30. I understand every fight cant be world level or step ups. But I just don't see one fight that he didn't suppose to win.

This conversation is ridiculous. Theres a ton of guys that spent their first two years fighting completely bs guys. Elite level guys I'm talking about.

I'd say Jordan is on the higher end of things with opponents. There are cats two years into their pro career or with less than 15 fights that are still fighting guys with losing records. Everybody isn't capable of being moved up like Floyd in their first 24 months. It is clear as day to me Jordan is being moved at present time in a way that will best help him become the best boxer he can become.

This is a volatile time for a pro boxer (the first 4-5 yrs) so Jordan's career could change on a dime & if he's fighting these same type of guys on the reg 36 months into his pro career it's gonna be a different story, but where he's @ right now is above average for a guy with 24 months & 15 fights of experience & I think most of you guys realize that while sh!tting on Jordan's progress is the odd thing here.

Thanks Reggie. Some comments seem to imply that there are other U.S. cruiserweights being advanced quicker than Jordan but there aren't. There are very few U.S. heavyweights being advanced quicker. I hope to see Jordan at 18-0 by the end of the year.

You guys have an opinion and so do I. At the end of the day when he steps up well see if his opponents did him any good. The result in the ring when he steps will prove who wrong and right and that's all I can ask for in this discussion. Its handled in the ring.

Too often I see fighters go 15, 16, 17 18 and 0 and they have not met anyone in the top 100 and yet they are talking like they are top 20...You (Dennis) six months ago said he was top 4 in the USA. Just want to see him fight someone in the 100. So often their first fighter in the top 100 is a number 15 chap and they get beat. Jordan will learn more from rated (better fighters), equally it is more expensive but; Harvey Jolley should be cheap, crap record but he is a lot better than Jordans opps so far. Joel Godfrey, Marcos Oliviera wont cost the world.

Harvey has a terrible record and Jordan handled him in the gym 7 or 8 years ago and Jordan is a lot better now. My guess is Harvey is just older. The other two maybe but I've been trying for better opposition. Soon Jordan will be boxing on TV then the opponents will improve.

I don't agree that Harvey is better than the guys Jordan has fought. Harvey was stopped in 3 by Durodola while Gauch went the 4 round distance with Durdola, the only distance victory Durodola has. Jordan fought Gauch in his 7th fight. Some of Jordan's other opponents would beat Harvey if they fought.

Being the "fastest moving American cruiserweight prospect" is damning with faint praise, and I'm not even 100% convinced that it's true. I'd point out:

1) Stivens Bujaj fought multiple Galen Brown-level opponents in his first 12 fights, and in his 13th fight he fought undefeated (10-0) Junior Wright who was coming off a KO of Galen Brown himself.

2) Alex Guerrero beat Galen Brown in his 11th pro fight, and KO'd another semi-decent journeyman (Harvey Jolly) two fights before that.

So I don't really see that Shimmell has been moved particularly faster than those guys. Also neither of those guys fought anyone as bad as Jon Corn after their first handful of fights.