George Groves comeback

[coneye]

Its a no brainer , Groves is probably just making top 10 and thats it , he's fought ONE of the champs and LOST TWICE , he would'nt beat Ward and i doubt if he would beat Dirrel , Cannot see him beating Sakia , or at this satge Kessler , that puts him at best number 6 , and thats being genorous ,,

[Lennox]

Come up with the other fighters better than Rebrasse on merit then.
I agree Bika - Groves is a pretty close call.

[ikorolev]

Come up with the other fighters better than Rebrasse on merit then.
I agree Bika - Groves is a pretty close call.

Groves could have at least one more fight before taking on a champion. Maderna (who had close fights with Oosthuizen and Rodriguez)/Gilberto Sanchez/Chudinov/Periban are good candidates.

[jujigatame]

I have no problem with a Groves/Dirrell fight. Sure Dirrell is a "champ" but he's not elite like a Ward or Froch. He's just a beltholder who beat an aging B-lister in Bika. Anyone who thinks Groves doesn't "deserve" that fight is putting way too much stock in ABC belts and their value.

[lefty]

I have no problem with a Groves/Dirrell fight. Sure Dirrell is a "champ" but he's not elite like a Ward or Froch. He's just a beltholder who beat an aging B-lister in Bika. Anyone who thinks Groves doesn't "deserve" that fight is putting way too much stock in ABC belts and their value.

I dont disagree with the fight being made either and actually would like to see it, but couldnt it be said that Groves got stopped against an ageing fighter? Admittedly even if he is one of the top guys in the division. Froch is older than Bika.

[ikorolev]

I think any top fighter with a good punch and good chin will stop Groves. Bika, Dirrell, Rodriguez, Kessler, JCCJ, Abraham would put him to sleep.

P.S. It would be a good option for JCCJ too allowing him to stay on top for a while.

[jujigatame]

I dont disagree with the fight being made either and actually would like to see it, but couldnt it be said that Groves got stopped against an ageing fighter? Admittedly even if he is one of the top guys in the division. Froch is older than Bika.

Well you said it yourself, Froch has been considered among the SMW elite for at least 5 solid years. Bika has never been at that level, ever.

[Lennox]

Come up with the other fighters better than Rebrasse on merit then.
I agree Bika - Groves is a pretty close call.

Groves could have at least one more fight before taking on a champion. Maderna (who had close fights with Oosthuizen and Rodriguez)/Gilberto Sanchez/Chudinov/Periban are good candidates.

Maderna has beaten two top 50 fighters the highest ranked 32 and the most recent was ranked 44 but that was 29 months ago, since then the two losses and meaningless wins so his resume is not better according to my stats. Gilberto Sanchez (subjectively looks good) 29-0 but only 1 of them (ranked 44) is against a top 50 fighter and that was close on 3 years ago, so objectively thats not better than Rebrasse either. Chudinov is another with just one top 50 win that was against a 29 ranked fighter. Periban has only fought 1 top 50 fighter in 3 years, last out got beat by Love who got beat by Medina.
As I said in an earlier post its a pretty thin division on merit hence Rebrasse looks quite good with his recent wins he has 3 top 50 wins, so it is understandable to see his WBC and IBF #3 ranking when each of those organisations DSQ about 10 fighters because they are champions or lined up to fight other champions.

[ikorolev]

Come up with the other fighters better than Rebrasse on merit then.
I agree Bika - Groves is a pretty close call.

Groves could have at least one more fight before taking on a champion. Maderna (who had close fights with Oosthuizen and Rodriguez)/Gilberto Sanchez/Chudinov/Periban are good candidates.

Maderna has beaten two top 50 fighters the highest ranked 32 and the most recent was ranked 44 but that was 29 months ago, since then the two losses and meaningless wins so his resume is not better according to my stats. Gilberto Sanchez (subjectively looks good) 29-0 but only 1 of them (ranked 44) is against a top 50 fighter and that was close on 3 years ago, so objectively thats not better than Rebrasse either. Chudinov is another with just one top 50 win that was against a 29 ranked fighter. Periban has only fought 1 top 50 fighter in 3 years, last out got beat by Love who got beat by Medina.
As I said in an earlier post its a pretty thin division on merit hence Rebrasse looks quite good with his recent wins he has 3 top 50 wins, so it is understandable to see his WBC and IBF #3 ranking when each of those organisations DSQ about 10 fighters because they are champions or lined up to fight other champions.

We can argue about that, but let's just be clear: when you say "top 50", "ranked 32", etc., you mean in your rankings.

[Lennox]

Yes the Independent World Boxing Rankings.

[lefty]

Come up with the other fighters better than Rebrasse on merit then.
I agree Bika - Groves is a pretty close call.

Groves could have at least one more fight before taking on a champion. Maderna (who had close fights with Oosthuizen and Rodriguez)/Gilberto Sanchez/Chudinov/Periban are good candidates.

Maderna has beaten two top 50 fighters the highest ranked 32 and the most recent was ranked 44 but that was 29 months ago, since then the two losses and meaningless wins so his resume is not better according to my stats. Gilberto Sanchez (subjectively looks good) 29-0 but only 1 of them (ranked 44) is against a top 50 fighter and that was close on 3 years ago, so objectively thats not better than Rebrasse either. Chudinov is another with just one top 50 win that was against a 29 ranked fighter. Periban has only fought 1 top 50 fighter in 3 years, last out got beat by Love who got beat by Medina.
As I said in an earlier post its a pretty thin division on merit hence Rebrasse looks quite good with his recent wins he has 3 top 50 wins, so it is understandable to see his WBC and IBF #3 ranking when each of those organisations DSQ about 10 fighters because they are champions or lined up to fight other champions.

Sanchez did knock out Medina though which in hindsight is a pretty decent win.

[Lennox]

Yes it is a good win with reflection. It was nearly 4 years ago of course and Medina was ranked 69 at the time of the fight.

[ikorolev]

Yes the Independent World Boxing Rankings.

So, I am wondering, when some rankings are being started, where are original rank values coming from ?

[Baby Face Finster]

I still think Groves is a top 10 SMW. The punch he got knocked out with would have KO'd almost everyone else at 168 also. I think Groves can beat Dirrell and Bika.

[Lennox]

Ikorolev - We started in 1991 and inputted every fighter that fought in the year 1990 and then every subsequent fight until we launched the first magazine in July 1993. We took the April 1991 (from memory) top 10 of the WBC - WBA and IBF (not WBO as it was too wild) plus the top 10 of Ring, Boxing Illustrated, Boxing Monthly and Boxing News. We averaged each persons rating. That gave us 25 -30 fighters in each division we then added fighters with a record of 15-0 or better and notionally gave them 30 points or more based on 2 points for a win, we also added 11-30 of the WBC and every regional and national champion based on 2 points for win unless he had beaten a ranked fighter. From there we felt we had 95% of the best fighters in the top 40 or 50. What was amazing was that hardly any fighters had common opponents of other fighters in the top 50. Many fighters were ranked say 15 with a 20-0 record with just 1 win against a top 50 fighter.

From there the magazine IWBR came out every two months until January 1999. Pretty much every promoter, manager (of world class fighters) TV companies and people in Boxing/ Las Vegas bookmakers bought it on subscription.We then got bought out on a licsence by the IBO until February this year and have re-launched independent again.

The ratings are points based on quality wins, if you beat someone you are ranked ahead of him for 12 months, so performances of other fighters can affect you moving down or up. So in effect they are the man the beat the man. There is a bias toward more recent fights though every performance is counted. Every rating is based on what has happened, not what might happen.

[ikorolev]

Ikorolev - We started in 1991 and inputted every fighter that fought in the year 1990 and then every subsequent fight until we launched the first magazine in July 1993. We took the April 1991 (from memory) top 10 of the WBC - WBA and IBF (not WBO as it was too wild) plus the top 10 of Ring, Boxing Illustrated, Boxing Monthly and Boxing News. We averaged each persons rating. That gave us 25 -30 fighters in each division we then added fighters with a record of 15-0 or better and notionally gave them 30 points or more based on 2 points for a win, we also added 11-30 of the WBC and every regional and national champion based on 2 points for win unless he had beaten a ranked fighter. From there we felt we had 95% of the best fighters in the top 40 or 50. What was amazing was that hardly any fighters had common opponents of other fighters in the top 50. Many fighters were ranked say 15 with a 20-0 record with just 1 win against a top 50 fighter.

From there the magazine IWBR came out every two months until January 1999. Pretty much every promoter, manager (of world class fighters) TV companies and people in Boxing/ Las Vegas bookmakers bought it on subscription.We then got bought out on a licsence by the IBO until February this year and have re-launched independent again.

The ratings are points based on quality wins, if you beat someone you are ranked ahead of him for 12 months, so performances of other fighters can affect you moving down or up. So in effect they are the man the beat the man. There is a bias toward more recent fights though every performance is counted. Every rating is based on what has happened, not what might happen.

Thank you for the explanation. Is there a reason why IWBR rankings don't show a point count/rank so that one could see how far apart boxers are ?

[Lennox]

Just don't want it copied.

[BAD INTENTIONS]

Groves is not that much worse that Froch ... but somewhere lost in the Carl Froch worship is that Froch is not that much better than the elite 168 pound fighters. Groves has been running his mouth way too much. He truly believes he is better than what he is.

I think there is a good chance Groves could lose to Anthony Dirrell ... then what do you make of his comeback?

[lefty]

I still think Groves is a top 10 SMW. The punch he got knocked out with would have KO'd almost everyone else at 168 also. I think Groves can beat Dirrell and Bika.

I dont believe the punch Froch landed was that big myself. Froch has hit opponents with equally big punches before and they have stood up to them. The difference between him and them is the fact that he doesnt have the best chin. It's not the worst going by any stretch either but he's always gonna be somewhat vulnerable. A bit like Bute.

[BAD INTENTIONS]

I still think Groves is a top 10 SMW. The punch he got knocked out with would have KO'd almost everyone else at 168 also. I think Groves can beat Dirrell and Bika.

I dont believe the punch Froch landed was that big myself. Froch has hit opponents with equally big punches before and they have stood up to them. The difference between him and them is the fact that he doesnt have the best chin. It's not the worst going by any stretch either but he's always gonna be somewhat vulnerable. A bit like Bute.

I think Groves might be better than Bute. The Froch fight was one thing, but I did not like what I saw during Bute/Pascal. He was resigned to losing that fight.

[ikorolev]

I still think Groves is a top 10 SMW. The punch he got knocked out with would have KO'd almost everyone else at 168 also. I think Groves can beat Dirrell and Bika.

I dont believe the punch Froch landed was that big myself. Froch has hit opponents with equally big punches before and they have stood up to them. The difference between him and them is the fact that he doesnt have the best chin. It's not the worst going by any stretch either but he's always gonna be somewhat vulnerable. A bit like Bute.

I think Groves might be better than Bute. The Froch fight was one thing, but I did not like what I saw during Bute/Pascal. He was resigned to losing that fight.

We don't know. Groves purposely selected a feather-fisted opponent and was still shaken a couple of times looking unimpressive. Who knows how he would look against somebody like Bika or Rodriguez who can put him to sleep with one punch.

[lefty]

I dont believe the punch Froch landed was that big myself. Froch has hit opponents with equally big punches before and they have stood up to them. The difference between him and them is the fact that he doesnt have the best chin. It's not the worst going by any stretch either but he's always gonna be somewhat vulnerable. A bit like Bute.

I think Groves might be better than Bute. The Froch fight was one thing, but I did not like what I saw during Bute/Pascal. He was resigned to losing that fight.

We don't know. Groves purposely selected a feather-fisted opponent and was still shaken a couple of times looking unimpressive. Who knows how he would look against somebody like Bika or Rodriguez who can put him to sleep with one punch.

Isnt Rodriguez supposed to be fighting at light heavy now? Well he doesnt seem to be fighting at all at the moment but you get my drift.

[magwitch]

I have no problem with a Groves/Dirrell fight. Sure Dirrell is a "champ" but he's not elite like a Ward or Froch. He's just a beltholder who beat an aging B-lister in Bika. Anyone who thinks Groves doesn't "deserve" that fight is putting way too much stock in ABC belts and their value.

I dont disagree with the fight being made either and actually would like to see it, but couldnt it be said that Groves got stopped against an ageing fighter? Admittedly even if he is one of the top guys in the division. Froch is older than Bika.

[digzee]

I still think Groves is a top 10 SMW. The punch he got knocked out with would have KO'd almost everyone else at 168 also. I think Groves can beat Dirrell and Bika.

I dont believe the punch Froch landed was that big myself. Froch has hit opponents with equally big punches before and they have stood up to them. The difference between him and them is the fact that he doesnt have the best chin. It's not the worst going by any stretch either but he's always gonna be somewhat vulnerable. A bit like Bute.

Its not always about the power of the punch, at that time George was throwing a punch at the same time and didn't see it coming, it landed perfectly on the sweet spot. Anyone can get knocked out with a punch they don't see coming.

[lefty]

I still think Groves is a top 10 SMW. The punch he got knocked out with would have KO'd almost everyone else at 168 also. I think Groves can beat Dirrell and Bika.

I dont believe the punch Froch landed was that big myself. Froch has hit opponents with equally big punches before and they have stood up to them. The difference between him and them is the fact that he doesnt have the best chin. It's not the worst going by any stretch either but he's always gonna be somewhat vulnerable. A bit like Bute.

Its not always about the power of the punch, at that time George was throwing a punch at the same time and didn't see it coming, it landed perfectly on the sweet spot. Anyone can get knocked out with a punch they don't see coming.

True but time will tell if George proceeds to get knocked out in big fights down the line.