BoxRec

Why don't some of you clowns just stick to your ridiculous resume based pfp rankings and place Roy Jones Jr over Golovkin.

Top 10?
Without question!
Where he sits in that top ten is up for debate but surely his inclusion is a given.

P4P should consider a combination of resume and talent. GGGs resume is average but his talent and natural physical attributes more than compensate.
Christ you cant exclude someone on the basis that they are so f*#*ing good that the best wont fight him. If he was ducking them fair enough but the fact that no one wants to fight him speaks volumes about how scary the dude is

GGG simply must be rated top 10 PFP.

davie wrote: Christ you cant exclude someone on the basis that they are so f*#*ing good that the best wont fight him. If he was ducking them fair enough but the fact that no one wants to fight him speaks volumes about how scary the dude is

And yet, you'll find scores of posters turning this argument on it's head and claiming it's GGG who's ducking them...

Lackeos wrote: As I've said before, Pacquiao's last win, all by itself, is superior to Golovkin's entire body of work added together.

Perhaps.

But what about the fights before that one ?
One gift decision then a KO loss to the same fighter.

Not a single ko in the last 4 years.

Pac is one month shy of 36 and past his best.
GGG is clearly superior.

It sounds obvious but the problem with the P4P list that you can only select ten fighters' in the whole boxing world.

Is Golovkin a top 10? When you look at his weight class, you would say yes - but there are others out there at different weight classes who have defeated P4P ranked guys. Unfortunately the same can't be said of Golovkin, though he is doing brilliantly thus far.

world ranked wrote:

crusader wrote:What if rankings and perceived ability are given equal weight? I really couldn't complain with someone having GGG over say, Danny Garcia, especially since I thought the latter lost to Mauricio Herrera.

a lost doesn't mean there resume still is better. Most of those people I named has loses but their wins have come vs better comp than GGG. If were talking talent then no question he's P4P talent but his resume doesn't rate.

Okay, but if people are basing their rankings on a mix of resume and perceived ability, and I don't see what's unreasonable about that, you don't have a problem with him being top ten P4P? I also think that losses have to be considered regardless of wins. Herrera really wasn't any more of a serious contender than people like Macklin and Geale were, yet he arguably deserved to beat Garcia (who was just used as an example) and if we're comparing the latter to GGG that should count against Garcia just as his win over LMM should count in his favor.

This stuff is all subjective in truth. I mean who is Golovkins best win would you say? Geale? Macklin? I really dont know and then you have Garcia's best win which has got to be Khan or Matthysse and then you have to try and work out who is the better fighter if they same weight. It is all pretty much conjecture in truth.

It's subjective, and even when using a computerized system like BoxRec's there are still subjective inputs. Garcia clearly has better wins than GGG, but I think he's also looked less impressive generally and he arguably deserved to lose against someone who I don't think is clearly better than multiple opponents that GGG has steamrolled.

Lackeos wrote:As I've said before, Pacquiao's last win, all by itself, is superior to Golovkin's entire body of work added together.

An honest assessment!!

KBB wrote:

Lackeos wrote:As I've said before, Pacquiao's last win, all by itself, is superior to Golovkin's entire body of work added together.

An honest assessment!!

How many times did Golovkin end up face down ? How many times was he given a questionable decision ?

ikorolev wrote:

KBB wrote:

Lackeos wrote:As I've said before, Pacquiao's last win, all by itself, is superior to Golovkin's entire body of work added together.

An honest assessment!!

How many times did Golovkin end up face down ? How many times was he given a questionable decision ?

LOL, you are so easily butthurt about Golo. How many times has he faced someone on the level of competition that Pacquiao has faced?

That's the easiest way to answer your question.

Golovkin never faced anybody of JMM level, but he faced 6 fighters from top 15 in his weight class in a row and impressively stopped all of them. Can you name another fighter who did something like that in the last few years ?

ikorolev wrote:Golovkin never faced anybody of JMM level, but he faced 6 fighters from top 15 in his weight class in a row and impressively stopped all of them. Can you name another fighter who did something like that in the last few years ?

Like I said, he never faced a fighter on that level. None of them are on the level of a Barrera, Morales, Mosley, Bradley.....I could go on and on but the real boxing fans get the point.

You won't though. lol

So, you will ignore obvious decline shown by Manny ? Most of the wins you mentioned were a long time ago. Like Floyd said, before the Rios fight Manny was 1-2.

Can you answer my question ?

Golovkin faced 6 fighters from top 15 in his weight class in a row and impressively stopped all of them. Can you name another fighter who did something like that in the last few years ?

fergusg wrote:

ikorolev wrote:Golovkin faced 6 fighters from top 15 in his weight class in a row and impressively stopped all of them. Can you name another fighter who did something like that in the last few years ?

I’m not getting involved in your discussion, but which six would that be… and what rankings are you using?

In terms of universally recognised top-ten fighters, I reckon Rubio, Macklin and Geale are the only ones I can think out of those that Golovkin has fought recently, but the others (I think) were not ranked quite that high.

Does it really make a difference if he's beating guys ranked 6-15 instead of 2-5?

Look at Boxrecs rankings;

1. Golovkin

2. Cotto - Golovkin would love to fight him, but will get crit that he's too small.
3. Quillin - Decent opponent
4. Martinez - Golovkin wanted him for years, chose to fight Cotto instead, now has 1 leg and should be retired.
5. Taylor - lol
6. Sturm - lost to Gaele, and his last fight to Soliman, has now moved up a div.
7. Murray - drew with Sturm and lost to a 1 legged Martinez, has beat absolutely nobody of note.
8. Soliman - A 40 year old with 12 losses.

Rubio, Macklin & Geale is about the best the division has to offer in truth since Martinez became shot. Quillin looks a decent contender level fighter but his best win is Rosado, so i'm not convinced he's better than Geale or Macklin. Geale was a unified world champion in the division who's only 2 losses in 32 fights were tight SD's. The division isn't that deep and lacks elite level talent, but Golovkin has cleaned it out with 18 straight KO's.

I had this conversation in a bar a little while back and I overheard this guy sitting at the bar telling a few others about current World Champions and he kept on saying "he's on the P4P list" to further enhance the boxer's reputation. Later when he was on his own, I got talking to him casually and I brought up the question of his P4P list. I then asked him to name his top 10 and he thought for a moment and here's what he came up with:

"Floyd Mayweather has to be in there, and so does Pacquaio... I'd probably throw in Miguel Cotto, he's had a few good wins... Big Wladimir Klitschsko on is game for some time now. And Bernard Hopkins is still going strong".

He said all of this in about 20 seconds. Ats this point I stopped him and reminded him that he had already named half of his P4P list, and asked him to consider all the brilliant boxers through the weights who were going to miss out on the other five spots.

P4P lists are a good bit of fun for boxing fans, but it should NOT be used as a badge of merit in a sensible boxing conversation. Especially when discussing the sport with others who only have a slight, passing interest.

ikorolev wrote:Golovkin faced 6 fighters from top 15 in his weight class in a row and impressively stopped all of them.

I think that statement is a bold one. But I'd be willing to test that. So, Ill take a stab at it -

I would say that Daniel Geale was definitely a top 10 guy, no question about that.

Marco Antonio Rubio was coming off a succession of wins, but in truth he was defeating opponents of limited quality. His best win was against Domenico Spada, who I doubt would even be in the top 30 of the weight class.

When Matthew Macklin (one of my favourite fighters today) lost to Golvokin, he was coming off two losses in his last three fights. I wouldn't bet on him being a top 10 guy at the weight during the time of the fight, but I would say he was top 15.

Osumanu Adama might just squeeze in to the top 15, but I wouldn't bet on it.

I would say that it's extremely unlikely that Curtis Stevens was a top 15 in the world when he fought Golovkin, due to the fact that he never beat any highly ranked contenders, and when he did he lost (Jesse Brinkley) .

Nobuhiro Ishida has always struggled with inconsistency when entering the deep end of the division, he definitely wasn't a top 15 guy.

Kassim Ouma had lost five of his previous seven fights before facing Golovkin, he wasn't top 15.

Lajuan Simon had lost three of his previous five fights before facing Golovkin, he wasn't top 15.

Makoto Fuchigami had been doing well going in to the Golovkin fight, but he had only won the Japanese Middleweight Title, is that really enough to warrant a top 15 place and a World Title shot?

Gregorz Proksa had won the European Middleweight title before facing Golovkin, which is a good achievement. But I wouldn't necessarily say that it means he's one of the top 15 guys in the world.

Gabriel Rosado had never even fought at Middleweight beore acing Golovkin, he had been a Light Middleweight all o his career.

ikorolev wrote:Can you name another fighter who did something like that in the last few years ?

Carl Froch has a superior record over his past 12 fights. He might have lost two of them, but his ten wins were fantastic!!!

fergusg wrote:

ikorolev wrote:Golovkin faced 6 fighters from top 15 in his weight class in a row and impressively stopped all of them. Can you name another fighter who did something like that in the last few years ?

I’m not getting involved in your discussion, but which six would that be… and what rankings are you using?

In terms of universally recognised top-ten fighters, I reckon Rubio, Macklin and Geale are the only ones I can think out of those that Golovkin has fought recently, but the others (I think) were not ranked quite that high.

Oops, it was actually 5. I am talking about boxrec MW rankings, and all these fighters: Macklin, Stevens, Adama, Geale, Rubio were in top 15 at the time they faced GGG.

ikorolev wrote:Oops, it was actually 5. I am talking about boxrec MW rankings, and all these fighters: Macklin, Stevens, Adama, Geale, Rubio were in top 15 at the time they faced GGG.

No problem. Can you prove it, please?

fergusg wrote:OK, fair enough.

I think that we should ask for proof before being so willing to accept this gentleman's claims.

Crease wrote:

ikorolev wrote:Can you name another fighter who did something like that in the last few years ?

Carl Froch has a superior record over his past 12 fights. He might have lost two of them, but his ten wins were fantastic!!!

Froch lost to Ward and Kessler, was given a gift in the Dirrell fight, and his win over Kessler was close (and again given by U.K. judges). Yes, some opponents he has beaten were better than Golovkin's but it doesn't overwrite his losses and close wins.

Correcting myself: who else faced FIVE top 15 opponents in a row and impressively KO'ed all of them barely losing a round ?

Crease wrote:

fergusg wrote:OK, fair enough.

I think that we should ask for proof before being so willing to accept this gentleman's claims.

Believe me, detailed oriented fergusg would correct me if I was wrong.

ikorolev wrote:Froch lost to Ward and Kessler

It's easy to point that out to try and discredit Froch. But those two guys really were the top two ranked Super Middleweights in the world when he fought them, the first time he fought Kessler, I mean.

ikorolev wrote:was given a gift in the Dirrell fight

Some would say that, but again - he'sabout how you judge styles. If we were to give every fight like this one to the fighter who ought like Dirrell, the boxing landscape would look a very different place.

ikorolev wrote:and his win over Kessler was close (and again given by U.K. judges).

The first fight was much, much closer than the second fight, it was a clear Froch victory.

ikorolev wrote:Yes, some opponents he has beaten were better than Golovkin's but it doesn't overwrite his losses and close wins.

Bute was ranked 2nd in the world when he fought Froch
Groves was ranked top 10 BOTH times
Jermain Taylor was top three
Arthur Abraham was top ten
Dirrell was top five
Johnson was top 10
Pascal was top 10

The only one who wasn't was Yusuf Mack, and he was within the top 15. And he was a mandatory Challenger, Froch had to fight him.

ikorolev wrote:Correcting myself: who else faced FIVE top 15 opponents in a row and impressively KO'ed all of them barely losing a round ?

I don't dispute the manner of his victories, they were all impressive, each one of them. But I highly dispute the rankings that you are providing NO proof whatsoever for.

I would say that Daniel Geale was definitely a top 10 guy, no question about that.

Marco Antonio Rubio was coming off a succession of wins, but in truth he was defeating opponents of limited quality. His best win was against Domenico Spada, who I doubt would even be in the top 30 of the weight class.

When Matthew Macklin (one of my favourite fighters today) lost to Golvokin, he was coming off two losses in his last three fights. I wouldn't bet on him being a top 10 guy at the weight during the time of the fight, but I would say he was top 15.

Osumanu Adama might just squeeze in to the top 15, but I wouldn't bet on it.

I would say that it's extremely unlikely that Curtis Stevens was a top 15 in the world when he fought Golovkin, due to the fact that he never beat any highly ranked contenders, and when he did he lost (Jesse Brinkley) .

Nobuhiro Ishida has always struggled with inconsistency when entering the deep end of the division, he definitely wasn't a top 15 guy.

Kassim Ouma had lost five of his previous seven fights before facing Golovkin, he wasn't top 15.

Lajuan Simon had lost three of his previous five fights before facing Golovkin, he wasn't top 15.

Makoto Fuchigami had been doing well going in to the Golovkin fight, but he had only won the Japanese Middleweight Title, is that really enough to warrant a top 15 place and a World Title shot?

Gregorz Proksa had won the European Middleweight title before facing Golovkin, which is a good achievement. But I wouldn't necessarily say that it means he's one of the top 15 guys in the world.

Gabriel Rosado had never even fought at Middleweight beore acing Golovkin, he had been a Light Middleweight all o his career.

Only Geale, Rubio & Macklin are in with a shout for being top 15. Have a look at the boxrec rankings for the other guys and you will see they are all ranked very, very low down the rankings. These guys just aren't as good as you are making out to be.