BoxRec

Ray Lampkin was an excellent fighter. He went 14 rounds, TOE TO TOE, with Duran in EXTREME HEAT CONDITIONS in Panama City. Just watch the fight. It was much closer than Duran vs Leonard I.

The ONLY champ that clearly beat better fighters at 135lbs than Duran was the great Ike Williams. Then, why he is not number one? Well, that is not the only criteria in ranking fighters.

Who did you vote for elmersalsa? Williams is stranded with no love and no votes.

Though throwing the laundry basket out just seems a bit mental.

Henry Armstrong, Benny Leonard, and Lou Ambers are all clearly ahead of Duran for quality of opposition at LW. Lampkin gave Duran a great fight ergo he's a great fighter OK, maybe we need to apply that principal more often then.

palooka wrote:Though throwing the laundry basket out just seems a bit mental.

I know, right? what is she thinking of? it is hard to concentrate on boxrec when this chaos is going on around me.

I think all boxers will have unexpected hard fights and will struggle against opposition you dont think they should. This is human. It doesnt matter who they are sometimes someone just isnt right for them.

Duran still the man.

palooka wrote:It certainly seems like a bigger argument, what kind of man keeps his surfboards in the house? If I had the power, I'd ban you from the forum.

These are my surfboards man. A zuma jay from 1980. You dont get boards like that anymore. This forum doesnt deserve me. I have been banned from better forums than this I can tell you.

Broomhall wrote:

palooka wrote:It certainly seems like a bigger argument, what kind of man keeps his surfboards in the house? If I had the power, I'd ban you from the forum.

These are my surfboards man. A zuma jay from 1980. You dont get boards like that anymore. This forum doesnt deserve me. I have been banned from better forums than this I can tell you.

Not over a wash basket I hope.

palooka wrote:Who did you vote for elmersalsa? Williams is stranded with no love and no votes.

I so nearly voted for williams...but Roberto Duran....C,mon...pro boxing isnt just about who would beat who..it is about who would you pay to watch. And Duran has to be the man. He just has to be. The way he crushed Davey Moore...and Moore wasnt bad..ruthless, exciting, vicious...This is a LIGHTWEIGHT crushing a good junior middle world champ...

palooka wrote:Who did you vote for elmersalsa? Williams is stranded with no love and no votes.

I voted for the great Roberto Duran. This guy at lightweight was a BEAST. It was like he was not human. He was a XLASS ABOVE his opponents. How he used angles, offset his opponents while fighting inside, great counterpunching abilities, stamina and power punching. A real technician.

Also the way he decimated the lightweights, 11 out of 12 title defenses were won by KO. All in 7 years. NOBODY WANTED TO FIGHT HIM. The feather champs, the jr. Lightweight champs nor even the jr welter ones did not wanted a piece of him. Manos de Piedra was a monster. That is all to it..

No competition near his weight class, nor in his own class, after he beat Esteban De Jesus in the rubber match, he had to JUMP TO TWO WEIGHT CLASSES!

Plus his record at lightweight was like 36-1? Something like that.


Well, by the other side, the great Ike Williams came on top in the 40s. But he lost twice to Willie Joyce. He also lost the first fight to Bob Montgomery, and instead of leaving the division, he lost to Jimmie Carter. I think that is why he is not number one at lightweight. He got defeated at the end and that I believe hurt him.

Seamus wrote:Henry Armstrong, Benny Leonard, and Lou Ambers are all clearly ahead of Duran for quality of opposition at LW. Lampkin gave Duran a great fight ergo he's a great fighter OK, maybe we need to apply that principal more often then.

Not they ain't. Only the great Ike Williams had CLEARLY better opposition than The Hands of Stone at lightweight.

elmersalsa... couldn't agree more...

Numbers and stats don't lie in the case of Duran. From his debut in 1968-1978, he was amazing.

Among the victims... Esteban De Jesus (2x's), Edwin Viruet, Vilomar Fernandez, Lou Bizzarro, Leoncio Ortiz, Ray Lampkin, Masataka Takayama, Guts Ishimatsu, Hector Thompson, Jimmy Robertson, and Ken Buchanan. That was just in the title reign. Before that he defeated alot of solid guys, such as Hiroshi Kobayashi and Angel Robinson Garcia. The one blemish during that time was when he fought De Jesus in a non title match, the first of their three bouts, and Duran avenged that twice.

In less than three months after the last De Jesus fight, Duran was at Junior Welterweight and less than six was going between 147 and 154. When he fought Leonard, he was 71-1 as a professional. Less than a year after winning and losing the 147 pound title to Leonard, he was winning the 154 pound title--- and 5 months after Davey Moore, he was fighting Hagler in one of the closest contests in memory for the middleweight title.

Simply incredible stuff.

Thanks, homicidehenry. You only forgot Ernesto Ñato Marcel in the list of victims of the great Roberto Duran between 1967 and 1978. A guy that retired undefeated champ at feather after beating the great Alexis Arguello.

Marcel should be in the hall of fame. Why he and Esteban DeJesus are not in?

elmersalsa wrote:Thanks, homicidehenry. You only forgot Ernesto Ñato Marcel in the list of victims of the great Roberto Duran between 1967 and 1978. A guy that retired undefeated champ at feather after beating the great Alexis Arguello.

Marcel should be in the hall of fame. Why he and Esteban DeJesus are not in?

The guys who run the hall don't want them in because it will further cement Durans legacy as the greatest beast to ever fight at 135lbs. Those guys at the hall don't want that to happen, they'd rather have frauds like Ambers, Armstrong, Gans and Leonard in than the great Marcel and DeJesus.

I'm sorry this upsets you so much Elmo but in time I'm sure it will all get better.

So you are making a mockery of DeJesus and Marcel, tomasino?

A better question is why is Buchanan in the Hall of Fame? It's not like he best greats like Ray Lampkin.

Well I could see where beating Buchanan and Lampkin would be more impressive than Henry Armstrong's successfully defending his World Welterweight title 5 times while weighing 135 or less

Seamus wrote:Well I could see where beating Buchanan and Lampkin would be more impressive than Henry Armstrong's successfully defending his World Welterweight title 5 times while weighing 135 or less

Let's be realistic.Armstrong did defend his welter title 5 times weighing 135 or less.
But 3 of those opponents were 136 lbs or less.Let's state all the facts.

If we are talking about who beat the most credible opponents at lightweight I a have to throw in there Carlos Ortiz.

To me Gans, Armtrong, Leonard, and Duran all have a legit claim at number 1.

But Carlos Ortiz has to be mention among the best who fought most credible opponents: Brown, Loi, Ramos, Elorde, Laguna, all HOF and solid fighters such as Lane, Busso, Torres, and the list keeps going. He has to be the most under-rated of all lightweights ever.

I believe Ross, Garcia. Manfredo, Pacho, and Roderick were legitimate Welterweights .

Ambling Alp II wrote:A better question is why is Buchanan in the Hall of Fame? It's not like he best greats like Ray Lampkin.

And that is the problem. American fight fans never knew about fighters from other countries. Ken Buchanan was Scotland's, Great Britain, Europe and the whole world lightweight champion. At one time, before losing to the great Roberto Duran, his record was 43-1. How about that, Alp? Ain't that impressive?

Ray Lampkin was not a great fighter. But he was not a TOMATO CAN, either. He was an excellent and formidable opponent that went with Duran TOE TO TOE in extreme weather conditions. Something what the great Sugar Ray Leonard did not do. He clutched and grabbed like a sissy for fifteen rounds, and the media called it that he "slug it out" with Duran.… What a joke.

If Leonard really "slug it out" with Duran the first time, he would have get knocked out. Leonard clutched and grabbed for survival and still, to me, that fight was not even close!

elmersalsa wrote:So you are making a mockery of DeJesus and Marcel, tomasino?

No sir, I am not. It is thee whom I mock, not the Mighty Marcel or Divine DeJesus.

I do agree with you that Dejesus and Marcel are superb fighters. I especially liked DeJesus in his fights with Duran. Do you think he'd have dominated 135lbs had Duran not been around? Who wins out of DeJesus and Buchanan?

Idisagree wrote:If we are talking about who beat the most credible opponents at lightweight I a have to throw in there Carlos Ortiz.

To me Gans, Armtrong, Leonard, and Duran all have a legit claim at number 1.

But Carlos Ortiz has to be mention among the best who fought most credible opponents: Brown, Loi, Ramos, Elorde, Laguna, all HOF and solid fighters such as Lane, Busso, Torres, and the list keeps going. He has to be the most under-rated of all lightweights ever.

The great Carlos Ortiz.... Another fighter that does not get mentioned a lot in this forum. Still, his quality of opposition does not matches the great Ike Williams'. His level of opposition is a notch or two below.

Sugar Ramos was already damaged goods when the great Vicente Saldivar made SUGAR CANES out of him in a brutal contest. Plus, Ramos was a featherweight.

Duilio Loi fought Ortiz three times for the world jr welter crown.

The great Joltin' Joe Brown was ready to be taken. He was a veteran of 16 years by the time he took Ortiz. Plus, Old Bones already had over 100 fights if I am not mistaken. At least he had 90 fights when he faced Ortiz.

Flash Elorde was never a TRUE LIGHTWEIGHT. He barely made the jr.
lightweight limit.

Only Ismael Laguna, and Kenny Lane were his true tests at lightweight.

So, again. Only Williams had the most wins against top and true lightweights than any other lightweight in history.

Tomasino wrote:

elmersalsa wrote:So you are making a mockery of DeJesus and Marcel, tomasino?

No sir, I am not. It is thee whom I mock, not the Mighty Marcel or Divine DeJesus.

I do agree with you that Dejesus and Marcel are superb fighters. I especially liked DeJesus in his fights with Duran. Do you think he'd have dominated 135lbs had Duran not been around? Who wins out of DeJesus and Buchanan?

That comes to show how we as a forum probably do not know much about good quality fighters below 135lbs and that is a damn shame. We only know probably about American fighters. Any other, we do not care I guess.

Ernesto Marcel got the qualifications to be in the hof. He beat the great Alexis Arguello in a magnificent contest in Panama City. He retired undefeated champion.

Esteban De Jesus should be in the hall. He got CREDENTIALS. He was Puerto Rico, NABF and WBC World lightweight champion. He was champion in all levels of competition at the pro level. Still, does not get respect. He beat Duran and had a trilogy with him. As a matter of fact, he was the only true fighter that wanted to fight Duran more than once. In the Hands of Stone prime, he was the only one, THE ONLY ONE, that fought him three times.

The first fighter to deck Duran twice in the first round for all cripes sake

He only lost two fights at lightweight. And that was against Duran. He was an excellent fighter without a doubt

elmersalsa wrote:

Ambling Alp II wrote:A better question is why is Buchanan in the Hall of Fame? It's not like he best greats like Ray Lampkin.

And that is the problem. American fight fans never knew about fighters from other countries. Ken Buchanan was Scotland's, Great Britain, Europe and the whole world lightweight champion. At one time, before losing to the great Roberto Duran, his record was 43-1. How about that, Alp? Ain't that impressive?

Ray Lampkin was not a great fighter. But he was not a TOMATO CAN, either. He was an excellent and formidable opponent that went with Duran TOE TO TOE in extreme weather conditions. Something what the great Sugar Ray Leonard did not do. He clutched and grabbed like a sissy for fifteen rounds, and the media called it that he "slug it out" with Duran.… What a joke.

If Leonard really "slug it out" with Duran the first time, he would have get knocked out. Leonard clutched and grabbed for survival and still, to me, that fight was not even close!

Yes Buchanan was the world champion. (Don't care about being the British champ, the Peurto Rican champ, the Austalian Champ etc. You only do when it pertains to Duran)
He was better than most fighters. Significantly worse than people like Bob Montgomery, Beau Jack, Sammy Angott. Don't care about 43-1 record. Win/loss records can be very deceiving in boxing; thought you knew that.

Never said Ray Lampkin was a tomato can. He was just another run of the mill good fighter. The other great lightweights beat dozens of better fighters. You just need to prop him to give Duran a good win.

Ray Leonard? Really You are bringing that up in the discussion of who the best lightweight of all all time? Oh that's right Duran was always a lightweight even though the scale said he was a welterweight. Somehow Duran is the one fighter who always stays at one weight class even though he in fact moved up.
Leonard was a sissy? Really? So what does that make Duran who quit in the 2nd fight because he was getting outboxed? Lets hear the crybaby excuses again.

Ambling Alp. You know when the great Sugar Ray Leonard fought the great Hands of Stone he was CLUTCHING AND GRABBING LIKE A SISSY. HE WAS FIGHTING FOR SURVIVAL. But the media and folks like you wanted to play it off that LEONARD DID NOT FIGHT HIS FIGHT, IT WAS CLOSE, AND HE SLUG IT OUT WITH the great Roberto Duran...Really? Did he fight not his fight, or he just simply got whupped by a lightweight?...Was it close or is it A LIE OF THE MEDIA to make Leonard look good? You know it, was not close at all. Duran whupped his ass, plain and simple.

Leonard slug it out with Duran? Esteban DeJesus did. Ray Lampkin did...They got knocked out when they did...They did not CLUTCHED AND GRABBED LIKE LEONARD DID. Bigger and stronger than Duran and he was clutching and grabbing for survival. Get the fvck out here!!! FIGHT! DON'T GRAB AND CLUTCH!

Ken Buchanan was an excellent fighter. Nobody in here said that he was a top 100 atg pound per pound. But he was formidable opponent of the great Hands of Stone. To be champion in ALL LEVELS OF COMPETITION DOES NOT MEAN NOTHING TO YOU? REALLY?...If that is not greatness, then what is greatness? The guy was a masterful boxer, with an excellent and fast jab, great chin, AND NEVER WAS KO'D IN HIS LIFE! How about that, mister?

He was not worse talentwise than Sammy Angott, Bob Montgomery or Beau Jack. He could fight. His 43-1 record before losing to Duran was not deceiving. It was what it was. And he proved it that he was QUALITY.

Ray Lampkin WENT TOE TO TOE with the Hands of Stone. Something that Leonard did not do. Lampkin did fight. Not Leonard. He did it in EXTREME CONDITIONS. So that ain't quality?

Leonard did not outboxed Duran the second time around. Duran quit. Duran did not had it and Leonard knew it. It was an OFF NIGHT and you know it. Leonard could never beat a well prepared and in shape Duran...You know it. Just watch the first fight, mister!