Wladimir Klitschko v Larry Holmes in all-time HW rankings

[Bard of Boxrec]

"What puzzles me is one simple fact… the only fighters that Larry Holmes faced when he was in prime that was fairly similar in stature to Wladimir Klitschko (weighing roughly 240+lbs), was Leroy Jones & Roy Williams"

What? Ever heard of Gerry Cooney? Bonecrusher Smith?

Pay attention to what I've actually written.. I already mentioned James 'Bonecrusher' Smith... and a prime version of Gerry Cooney was typically more than 20lbs lighter than Wladimir Klitschko.

Cooney weighed 225-230 in his mid-late 20s. Wlad weighed 235-240 that same age. Stop exaggerating his size.

Holmes was far bigger than Haye and Ibragimov who scared Wlad so much he had to win a staring contest with each over 12 rounds, or Povetkin who Wlad grabbed every 10 seconds. You have no idea what you're talking about.

You're going to go insane here. Some people just refuse to understand the truth.

Putting Wlad anywhere near Holmes in the all-time list is looney tunes. There is no justification for it whatsover. We're talking about a guy who has been stopped three times by sub-standard guys, one a journeyman, knocked down 10+ times, was almost stopped by Sam friggin Peter, and whose best win is over a blown-up cruiserweight in a fashion than involved him throwing three jabs more each round and stinking out the building. His next best win is arguably Chris Byrd. True, he has dominated heavyweight in the past however many years and stands out as the top guy. But this 'new, improved Wlad' is largely a myth. He did get better defensively and less reckless, but the 'New Wlad' also hasn't faced the sort of pressure or power that guys like Brewster and Sanders respectively gave him. His competition hasn't been good. No fault of his own - no fault of ours in trying to rank him.

Time to be realistic. Wladimir Klitschko's level is comparable to Amir Khan. Stopped and hurt more than once, a few good wins, frail chin. A contender in any era probably, but no more. There are even parallels in terms of their 'rehabilitation', Khan with Hunter, Wlad with Steward. Khan could go on a run of beating a long line of carefully-selected people akin to the shot Collazo, defending a paper belt, and put together a comparable 'reign' to Klitschko, and wouldn't get the props Wlad has. The only reason people are being silly is because he has 'cleaned out the division' without appreciating how important it is for this discussion that this division is putrid!

[jamesmcdonnell]

The thing is, size is a tradeoff, over 6' foot 4" and about 220-230 lbs, these big guys get a lot slower, and more importantly, they simply cannot fight at the kind of pace that Ali, Holmes Holyfield, Bowe, etc did.

Bowe was over 6'4'' himself

I agree the size can be a trade off, still if a fighter knows how to use it is quite serious advantage. There are boxers who are never able to use this advantage like Michael Grant... but also ones like Vitali who built most of career on it.

Yes, that's true - Bowe really was such a crying shame, he really had all the tools, Futch lamented to his dying day that he just couldn't keep Bowe in the gym between fights, he said he was the most talented heavyweight he ever trained, - high praise considering who else he trained. Bowe had very quick hands for such a big man, and could fight at quite a lick - he was also a natural big man, he wasn't all bulging muscles, he was just a huge man - his first fight with Holyfield was a thing of beauty, in fact the first two fights were both great. The third fight, was one of the strangest Heavyweight title fights I've seen, Holyfield had him completely out on his feet, but seemed to just completely tank - never worked out what happened there - whether it was an injury, or he just completely gassed, Holyfield looked real bad in that fight.

Yes, Vitali was incredibly effective, no huge single shots, just a continual barrage of hurtful straight shots, and very hard to hit, and when you did, he just blinked and carried on hitting you. He eat some monstrous shots from Lewis in their fight. Vitali for me was the better of the two brothers - as he had less fear, but the injuries ended his later career, and when he came back he was creaking a little bit. I still think if he came back now there's nobody out there would beat him, except maybe his brother.

[Ian1973]

People seem to underrate current fighters when comparing them to past fighters, I'll never seem to know why.

The past was always better that's just the way it is. Wlad will be much more highly rated in twenty years time than he currently is.

[Bard of Boxrec]

People seem to underrate current fighters when comparing them to past fighters, I'll never seem to know why.

The past was always better that's just the way it is. Wlad will be much more highly rated in twenty years time than he currently is.

So he's going to be ranked as the greatest of all times by some on here, if their silly asses somehow manage to navigate their way through another 20 years of life. God help us.

[Ian1973]

People seem to underrate current fighters when comparing them to past fighters, I'll never seem to know why.

The past was always better that's just the way it is. Wlad will be much more highly rated in twenty years time than he currently is.

So he's going to be ranked as the greatest of all times by some on here, if their silly asses somehow manage to navigate their way through another 20 years of life. God help us.

I didn't say he'd be rated the greatest of all times but he'll be rated more realistically than he currently is by some people who can't seem to tell the difference between the "pre change Wlad" and the "post change Wlad".

[jamesmcdonnell]

The trouble is, since his reincarnation, he's faced very poor competition. On the rare occasions he is under pressure, and he hasn't managed to bear hug his opponent, he still looks panicked and totally disorganised.

Wlad isn 't to blame for his level of competition, it's not like he is avoiding anyone - but it must be taken into account when gauging his career. I'd say Wlad is top 20 all time, quite likely top 10 by the end of his career, based on longevity primarily, but it's a shame we don't have someone with experience and talent to take him on now, so we could assess just how good this 'new Wlad' really is.

[Bard of Boxrec]

I actually think more people get silly at the current time than in the future. Just look at the poll as it stands now, at the number of goofballs ranking Wlad above Holmes. It really is something to behold. Seriously doubt if Wlad retired tomorrow there would be the same level of stupidity in 20 years, but you never know. Folk are just getting excited at Wladdy being a bit more energetic than usual against the latest bum. It's cute.

[Noxy]

Or, to put it another way. Who would you rather watch? Holmes for me. Wlad is a great fighter but his style tends to be more utilitarian than entertaining. Holmes was in loads of great fights and he more than played his part in them.

[ArmaanCFC]

The truth is majority of fans overrate past fighters, even if they don't know a single thing about them, it's just the way things work in the world of boxing. In the next 20 years some will say Wlad is one of the best heavyweights to walk the planet.

[lillywhite14]

I actually think more people get silly at the current time than in the future. Just look at the poll as it stands now, at the number of goofballs ranking Wlad above Holmes. It really is something to behold. Seriously doubt if Wlad retired tomorrow there would be the same level of stupidity in 20 years, but you never know. Folk are just getting excited at Wladdy being a bit more energetic than usual against the latest bum. It's cute.

It is getting a little out of hand. Wlad is way too big for Larry Holmes but wasn't too big for Brewster or Sanders...interesting.

[tiny_acres]

I actually think more people get silly at the current time than in the future. Just look at the poll as it stands now, at the number of goofballs ranking Wlad above Holmes. It really is something to behold. Seriously doubt if Wlad retired tomorrow there would be the same level of stupidity in 20 years, but you never know. Folk are just getting excited at Wladdy being a bit more energetic than usual against the latest bum. It's cute.

It is getting a little out of hand. Wlad is way too big for Larry Holmes but wasn't too big for Brewster or Sanders...interesting.

They are acting like Holmes is a midget.Holmes was 6'3" with an 81" reach..Klitschko is 6'6" with the same 81" reach.
Such a huge difference

[danamba7]

These results surprise me! Just read Larry's CV and then Wlad's. I have huge respect for Wlad but Holmes had it tougher and still prevailed.

[lillywhite14]

You might as well rank Wlad above Lewis, Ali, Louis, Foreman, Frazier, Johnson, Holyfield etc if you are sticking him above Holmes.

[tiny_acres]

You might as well rank Wlad above Lewis, Ali, Louis, Foreman, Frazier, Johnson, Holyfield etc if you are sticking him above Holmes.

Sad thing is.Some of these people do.

[Impractical Poster]

Holmes was all around a better boxer than Wlad. Quicker and more fundamentally sound. A lot of people bring up size, but in some cases, size doesn't matter all that much.

Here is a Melvin Manhoef, a middleweight, taking out Mark Hunt, a BIG Heavyweight.

[lillywhite14]

You might as well rank Wlad above Lewis, Ali, Louis, Foreman, Frazier, Johnson, Holyfield etc if you are sticking him above Holmes.

Sad thing is.Some of these people do.

Don't rise to it, pity them. They deserve it!

[Impractical Poster]

Holmes fought better men simple as - though I must say, I find it hard to envisage Wlad losing to Spinks.

By the same token, I find it hard to envisage Holmes losing to Purity, Sanders, or Brewster.

[Ezzard]

Holmes has the better record but not by as much as is being suggested here. Pulev, Thompson, Byrd, Povetkin, Peter, Chagaev would all have been at home in the 1980s HW division.

The biggest problem I have is that almost all of the criticisms of Klits opponents I heard back in 1985 only they were being aimed at Holmes then.

[Ricky_]

I like Wladimir, but he's packin glass. He's made to look unbeatable by the low calibre opposition he's up against. Nobody even has a shot of KOing him. The best win on his record was against the cruiserweight Haye. Wlad isn't too disimilar to Khan in having excellent offensive technque, and is better than Khan, p4p, with far better strategy and ring IQ, but both have a vulnerability when they get tagged. Wladimir could have knocked out Lepai at any time but it was telling he chose to do so when Lepai landed something which made Wlad think twice. In terms of greatness, i think Wlad is somewhere slightly behind Holmes but a distance behind Lewis.

[Bard of Boxrec]

Pulev, Thompson, Byrd, Povetkin, Peter, Chagaev would all have been at home in the 1980s HW division.

No.

Just, No.

[Ezzard]

I'd back all of them against David Bey...most of them against Bruno, Smith and Weaver... Then 50-50 with Coetzee, Berbick, Thomas...

[Othro]

I like Wladimir, but he's packin glass. He's made to look unbeatable by the low calibre opposition he's up against. Nobody even has a shot of KOing him. The best win on his record was against the cruiserweight Haye. Wlad isn't too disimilar to Khan in having excellent offensive technque, and is better than Khan, p4p, with far better strategy and ring IQ, but both have a vulnerability when they get tagged. Wladimir could have knocked out Lepai at any time but it was telling he chose to do so when Lepai landed something which made Wlad think twice. In terms of greatness, i think Wlad is somewhere slightly behind Holmes but a distance behind Lewis.

So you have Lewis much higher than Holmes and Klitschko's best win is against Byrd?

Hometown bias

[Bard of Boxrec]

I'd back all of them against David Bey...most of them against Bruno, Smith and Weaver... Then 50-50 with Coetzee, Berbick, Thomas...

This could be a separate thread...although judging by the crazy results of this poll, a lot of people might actually agree with you.

By the way do you still think Murray will give Golovkin a good fight?

Now that I’ve given you the facts… I dare you to prove me wrong!

I really hope he doesn't bother.

[lillywhite14]

Heights and weights, especially at heavy, always strike me as being distorted thesedays, with people adding more. I've been in the same room as David Haye before and I would be amazed if he is a genuine 6'3

From what I have seen, Holmes is a bigger man than Haye. Take Haye out the gym and off the 250+ grams of protein everyday and he would shrink back to 14st in next to no time. Holmes seems a naturally big man.

[Ricky_]

This idiot Frgus talking size again... sigh.

Holmes is much bigger than Haye. Talk about stating the obvious.