BoxRec

Have you ever seen a ref trying to slap a fighters forearm away from trying to clinch before any break has occurred, if it was a legal move ( which it actually isn't) would he be trying to do that, refs TOLERATE a certain amount of clinching but it is to their discretion when they penalise, to come out and say floyd has evolved his DEFENCE around clinching is a classic

Pureist wrote:Have you ever seen a ref trying to slap a fighters forearm away from trying to clinch before any break has occurred, if it was a legal move ( which it actually isn't) would he be trying to do that, refs TOLERATE a certain amount of clinching but it is to their discretion when they penalise, to come out and say floyd has evolved his DEFENCE around clinching is a classic

I never said he evolved his defense around clinching, if I did then please show me??? We're waiting..........................

Floyd has evolved in his offense and defense, look at the way he fought back at 130, he wasn't using the shoulder roll that often and now he uses it almost exclusively (especially against Orthodox boxers) besides, I don't think he really needs to evolve if what he is doing is working.

He applied the correct tactic in the Chino rematch when he was on the ropes and that is the tie up, Ali used it and so does many other "intelligent" boxers so it isn't an illegal tactic. Sure if a Ref tires of it he can exact a penalty but that is a rare thing.

Please try to get passed your hate and your hateful spirit to see what is really being said here by you is out of your dislike, you aren't speaking intellectually but rather you're speaking emotionally which is clouding your assessment.

Speaking intelligently, you then said it wasn't illegal but then contradicted yourself saying a ref could penalize a boxer if he tires of it, no hate from my side, I like both but get very sick of your biased king nuthugger

Pureist wrote:Speaking intelligently, you then said it wasn't illegal but then contradicted yourself saying a ref could penalize a boxer if he tires of it, no hate from my side, I like both but get very sick of your biased king nuthugger

How often does it happen that a Ref deducts a point for clinching?? Not holding, clinching??

KBB wrote:

Pureist wrote:Floyd Hasn't evolved in at least 10 years, he hasn't fought anyone in that time that has caused him any need to evolve, he adapts, yes, evolves, no, in the 2nd maidana fight he was protected by bayliss not allowing maidana to Infight, Floyd has an array of punches he uses extremely well but they haven't changed, his defensive skills haven't changed, his footwork hasn't changed, just slowed down, he hasn't fought a smart moving boxer for a decade or a boxer with fast hands

LOL, protected by Bayless, lol. Sure I guess his defense had nothing to do with him not getting hit? I guess his ability to fire sharp counters in those clinches while coming off the ropes isn't evolving to you, I guess his ability to tie Maidana up isn't showing skills or evolving from the first fight to the second??

I disagree with Floyd not evolving and yes, he does make adjustments but why should one have to fix what isn't broken? 47-0, that's 47 fights that no fighter has been able to figure out how to beat him and yet you think he needs or should evolve, evolve into what, standing toe to toe while showing no defense and just slugging it out??

His footwork is par none, sure he doesn't move as fast as he did at 130 but this shows how he has evolved to the point where he can simply stand in the pocket and roll his shoulders and make fighters far younger, bigger and stronger than him actually miss him and you say he hasn't evolved, he wasn't fighting that way at 130 (he was moving and using the entire ring, what Pacquiao fans call running).

To say he hasn't evolved is to say you haven't realized the subtleties he's exhibited in evolving himself into a more efficient fighter (one who does not have to move as much as he once did and yet still be able to beat fighters younger, bigger and stronger.

As you can see I strongly disagree with you.

"I guess his ability to tie Maidana up isn't showing skills or evolving from the first fight to the second" they are your words KBB, so he has evolved into a specialist clincher, is that correct? There is a good article from hbo regarding holding, clinching, with examples and an explaination from Richard Steele and yes you are wrong,

Freddy even in his state knows Manny is not going to win this fight. there only hopes lies in in many getting extremely lucky and lands a ko punch. imo by round 3 or 4 many will realize he is outclassed and will either go into survival mode or get put to sleep.

LOL, protected by Bayless, lol. Sure I guess his defense had nothing to do with him not getting hit? I guess his ability to fire sharp counters in those clinches while coming off the ropes isn't evolving to you, I guess his ability to tie Maidana up isn't showing skills or evolving from the first fight to the second??

I disagree with Floyd not evolving and yes, he does make adjustments but why should one have to fix what isn't broken? 47-0, that's 47 fights that no fighter has been able to figure out how to beat him and yet you think he needs or should evolve, evolve into what, standing toe to toe while showing no defense and just slugging it out??

His footwork is par none, sure he doesn't move as fast as he did at 130 but this shows how he has evolved to the point where he can simply stand in the pocket and roll his shoulders and make fighters far younger, bigger and stronger than him actually miss him and you say he hasn't evolved, he wasn't fighting that way at 130 (he was moving and using the entire ring, what Pacquiao fans call running).

To say he hasn't evolved is to say you haven't realized the subtleties he's exhibited in evolving himself into a more efficient fighter (one who does not have to move as much as he once did and yet still be able to beat fighters younger, bigger and stronger.

As you can see I strongly disagree with you.[/quote]
"I guess his ability to tie Maidana up isn't showing skills or evolving from the first fight to the second" they are your words KBB, so he has evolved into a specialist clincher, is that correct? There is a good article from hbo regarding holding, clinching, with examples and an explaination from Richard Steele and yes you are wrong,[/quote]

Maidana vs Floyd I and II were totally different fights, with totally different referees. Weeks and Bayless were one extreme to the other, with neither one being correct in the way they let the fight go, in my opinion. Weeks let anything go, which was pathetic. Because of the mma-type fight, Bayless called it too close. I fault Weeks more because he let so many illegal crap go. I don't think the May-Pac fight will be dependent on what the ref does though. Both are typically fairly easy to ref....unlike a Maidana or Khan type of guys.

Bayliss took maidanas inside fighting away from him in the second fight, maidana has the right to fight inside, it's not against the rules, Bayliss breaking the 2 fighters as soon as maidana moved in ruined the fight and took maidanas fight strategy from him, weeks allowed maidana to tee off on floyd because all floyd was doing was trying to tie up maidana repeatedly, stopping the flow of the fight, weeks wanted floyd to fight out, not hold, so let the action continue, you said week let too much illegal crap go, you seem to dismiss what floyd was doing was wrong aswell, give me weeks in any fight over Bayliss, he protected floyd while limiting maidanas style of fighting

Badhusker wrote:Maidana vs Floyd I and II were totally different fights, with totally different referees. Weeks and Bayless were one extreme to the other, with neither one being correct in the way they let the fight go, in my opinion. Weeks let anything go, which was pathetic. Because of the mma-type fight, Bayless called it too close. I fault Weeks more because he let so many illegal crap go. I don't think the May-Pac fight will be dependent on what the ref does though. Both are typically fairly easy to ref....unlike a Maidana or Khan type of guys.

You're wasting your time trying to convince an idiot, you are spot on in your assessment.

Did you read the article with Richard Steele giving the explaination, by your last post I gather you have realised your wrong, seems like you have bigger arguments against you at the moment on the race thread, that thread just proved to me how delusional you actually are

What Weeks let Maidana do without penalty was ridiculous. Arm twisting, rabbit punching, multiple low blows to the groin and thighs, holding and hitting, double leg takedown. I probably have forgotten a few more. I can see him allowing the rabbit punching out of frustration in a clinch, but the rest was over the top. Floyd uses his forearm to create distance, but its not like he is throwing it Jon Jones style.

Bayless called it closer, probably too close because of how mma-like the first was. Ref's have to be in control of the fight. Refs should break a clinch if the action looks like it is stalled. Its not wrestling or MMA. Excessive clinching is illegal, yes, but that is where the ref uses his judgement. Would it be ok for Floyd to elbow Maidana Jon Jones style in the face after he gets a low blow? Maybe he should have since Maidana was never penalized for his illegal tactics.

Wilder was also victim to a double leg takedown. I don't think Stiverne or Maidana were even warned for it. Wtf is up with that? Imo, refs need to issue one warning for anything illegal, then penalize one point, then two points, then DQ.

Badhusker wrote:What Weeks let Maidana do without penalty was ridiculous. Arm twisting, rabbit punching, multiple low blows to the groin and thighs, holding and hitting, double leg takedown. I probably have forgotten a few more. I can see him allowing the rabbit punching out of frustration in a clinch, but the rest was over the top. Floyd uses his forearm to create distance, but its not like he is throwing it Jon Jones style.

Bayless called it closer, probably too close because of how mma-like the first was. Ref's have to be in control of the fight. Refs should break a clinch if the action looks like it is stalled. Its not wrestling or MMA. Excessive clinching is illegal, yes, but that is where the ref uses his judgement. Would it be ok for Floyd to elbow Maidana Jon Jones style in the face after he gets a low blow? Maybe he should have since Maidana was never penalized for his illegal tactics.

Wilder was also victim to a double leg takedown. I don't think Stiverne or Maidana were even warned for it. Wtf is up with that? Imo, refs need to issue one warning for anything illegal, then penalize one point, then two points, then DQ.

You forgot the Muay Thai Knee that Maidana threw, but listening to this guy (Pureist) he makes it sound as though all Mayweather had to do was hold and he was still able to win the fight. I guess that's what the judges are doing in his estimation, scoring the holding.

You didn't mention the bite either, try sticking the main part of the glove in your mouth, did it fit, yes you must be an alligator, no you must be human, did the knee do anything, no, arm twisting, floyd had his arms, not the other way around, holding and hitting, yep floyd WAS holding while maidana was hitting

Yes I did forget the knee Maidana attempted to throw, and the head butt. You don't have to be a hater or a nut hugger to see what happened in either fight. We were mainly talking about the blatant fouls Maidana committed in the first fight, but as long as you mentioned the bite, yes, that was another pathetic dirty attempt by Maidana to somehow change the fight, which is also against the rules, and should have been DQ'd for it. Bayless didn't have a good angle, but it was obvious it was a bite with intent to hurt. Maidana lied out of his ass denying it afterwards too.

Ortiz with his blatant head butt with intent to hurt or disable Floyd should have been DQ'd on the spot. What do people remember though? - Floyd taking a cheap shot to end it. Floyd should have ended it after the second or third hug from that dirty faggot. Now, if you hate Floyd you might applaud Ortiz for such a tactic like Freddie Roach did. In my book, you are nothing more than a piece of shit for doing so. I also think anyone is a piece of shit for thinking what Maidana did in the first fight was ok and within the rules. Maybe people that think that are just fornicating retarded though, so I shouldn't be so hard on them. So anyway Pureist, I guess maybe I should just consider the source and just let it roll.

Floyd vs Manny will be an easy one to ref, because neither is known for illegal or dirty tactics.

I don't think you understood I was being sarcastic, get a glove, put a mouth guard in and try and bite 3 fingers, the glove is moulded into a fist shape, virtually impossible to straighten your hand out in an old glove let alone a new glove, for maidana to bite him he would need a jaw as long as an alligator, floyd was just trying to get a point deducted, sooking, the knee didn't land so that isn't even an arguement, floyds constant holding, breaking the flow of the fight should have recieved warnings and eventually point deductions, then there is also fending off with his elbow, again warnings and point deductions but as I have said floyd was protected

Badhusker wrote:Yes I did forget the knee Maidana attempted to throw, and the head butt. You don't have to be a hater or a nut hugger to see what happened in either fight. We were mainly talking about the blatant fouls Maidana committed in the first fight, but as long as you mentioned the bite, yes, that was another pathetic dirty attempt by Maidana to somehow change the fight, which is also against the rules, and should have been DQ'd for it. Bayless didn't have a good angle, but it was obvious it was a bite with intent to hurt. Maidana lied out of his ass denying it afterwards too.

Ortiz with his blatant head butt with intent to hurt or disable Floyd should have been DQ'd on the spot. What do people remember though? - Floyd taking a cheap shot to end it. Floyd should have ended it after the second or third hug from that dirty faggot. Now, if you hate Floyd you might applaud Ortiz for such a tactic like Freddie Roach did. In my book, you are nothing more than a piece of poo for doing so. I also think anyone is a piece of poo for thinking what Maidana did in the first fight was ok and within the rules. Maybe people that think that are just effing retarded though, so I shouldn't be so hard on them. So anyway Pureist, I guess maybe I should just consider the source and just let it roll.

Floyd vs Manny will be an easy one to ref, because neither is known for illegal or dirty tactics.

Holding excessively and elbows are both fouls, you can't argue with that

Holding excessively and elbows are both fouls, you can't argue with that[/quote]


I haven't argued that they are not fouls. I stated that excessive holding or clinching is illegal, but is left to the ref's judgement. Boxers are allowed to clinch, but must break when the ref says to break. If Floyd throws his elbow, yes, that is illegal. Low blows and double leg take-downs are not legal in boxing. The fact that Maidana even tried to bite Floyd's fingers shows you what kind of dirty boxer he is, whether caught or not, and whether effective or not.

Like I said, the difference between Weeks and Bayless was one extreme to the other....I'm not arguing either done a good job, but Bayless wanted it to be a clean fight, not a MMA style street brawl. If he did allow them to fight like they did in the first, he would have definitely DQ'd Maidana.

As the ref he has to realise you cannot take a fighters style away because he MIGHT foul his opponent, bay less broke them sometimes before they were even in a clinch, that restricted maidanas style and protected floyd, very simple to understand, I think your reasonably level headed badhusker, I realise your a floyd fan and sway towards him, you also realise this won't be a walk in the park for either fighter, but it annoys me when a ref doesn't make a bout a level playing field, floyd runs his own race, he puts money into all of the officials pockets on his shows due to them being appointed to work, if it was a choise between Bayliss and weeks to ref the big one, who do you think will get the job, the one who looked after floyd or the one that left the fight to flow due to both fighters were fouling

I'm sure Bayless was told to keep it a clean fight, but do not think he was doing it to protect Floyd. Maidana's camp was very public saying the second fight would be even more physically rough than the first. Their own fault for spouting off like that. Its not like refs and judges don't read articles, watch videos, etc.

Yes, I am a big fight fan of Floyds, but like several other boxers too. I think Floyd is a bit of a spoiled punk that has done some stupid things outside of the ring. I admire him for his performance in the ring, not out of it. I also have a huge amount of respect for Pacquiao, now he is past his phobia about random blood testing.

I don't buy into the ref/judges/fighters getting paid off bit. Bayess was paid to make it a clean fight, and did what he thought was right, not to protect Floyd. I also think whoever gets to ref the big fight is not either Weeks or Bayless, mainly to limit excuses from the losing team. I don't think it will be a hard one to ref based on the history and styles of both fighters.

Physically rough doesn't have to mean dirty, as hatton said, boxing isn't a tickle contest, I didn't mean the ref was getting paid off, I mean if the ref is favourable towards floyd he would get a gig again, week won't ref another floyd fight, if he wanted such a clean fight he should have let maidana in to fight in the first place and then dealt with any fouls coming from either fighter, not just one, the ref should never presume someone will foul and the ref shouldn't ref according to those presumptions

You know, tough shit for Maidana. If he wasn't so damn dirty in the first fight, he might have been able to fight inside more in the second. Too bad for that dirty mother fornicator. If you can't beat a guy clean, don't resort to dirty tactics, and stay out of the fornicating ring. If I was Floyd I wouldn't even have given him a rematch. The one time Maidana did get inside in the second fight, he tried to bite Floyd's fingers...then the lying sack of shit denied it. Wtf? Defending a guy for being "physical" when he was downright the dirtiest mother fornicator I have seen since Tyson, is pathetic.

Another thing that totally made me laugh was at the whole Maidana team. They bring a used pair of gloves to the weigh in for inspection, wrapped in saran wrap. Padding was either missing or very loose - and they expected to be able to use them in an even like that? Then piss and moan about not being able to use "their gloves"? I think the whole team are a bunch of freaking morons. I especially fault Garcia for condoning the dirty tactics that Maidana employed, and publicly encouraged him to do more of the same in the second fight. What a dumb ass. Then, complain because the contest was called too close as far as tie-ups being broken up? Hello?

Badhusker wrote:You know, tough poo for Maidana. If he wasn't so damn dirty in the first fight, he might have been able to fight inside more in the second. Too bad for that dirty mother fornicator. If you can't beat a guy clean, don't resort to dirty tactics, and stay out of the effing ring. If I was Floyd I wouldn't even have given him a rematch. The one time Maidana did get inside in the second fight, he tried to bite Floyd's fingers...then the lying sack of poo denied it. Wtf? Defending a guy for being "physical" when he was downright the dirtiest mother fornicator I have seen since Tyson, is pathetic.

Another thing that totally made me laugh was at the whole Maidana team. They bring a used pair of gloves to the weigh in for inspection, wrapped in saran wrap. Padding was either missing or very loose - and they expected to be able to use them in an even like that? Then piss and moan about not being able to use "their gloves"? I think the whole team are a bunch of freaking morons. I especially fault Garcia for condoning the dirty tactics that Maidana employed, and publicly encouraged him to do more of the same in the second fight. What a dumb ass. Then, complain because the contest was called too close as far as tie-ups being broken up? Hello?

This fits the argument of the Pacquiao faithful, they will use any excuse not to give Floyd credit, Maidana is a dirty piece of sh*t. These same guys here whining about Maidana not getting a fair chance to fight are the same ones crying about dirty ass Vic Ortiz getting zapped for being a piece of sh*t in fouling Floyd then getting KTFO for it.

I wouldn't even waste anymore energy on people like him, he is the only one arguing a case that means nothing, he is just an emotional little girl whining about Mayweather not losing, soon he'll be here making excuses for Manny as well.

It's a never ending cycle with these types.

Badhusker wrote:You know, tough poo for Maidana. If he wasn't so damn dirty in the first fight, he might have been able to fight inside more in the second. Too bad for that dirty mother fornicator. If you can't beat a guy clean, don't resort to dirty tactics, and stay out of the effing ring. If I was Floyd I wouldn't even have given him a rematch. The one time Maidana did get inside in the second fight, he tried to bite Floyd's fingers...then the lying sack of poo denied it. Wtf? Defending a guy for being "physical" when he was downright the dirtiest mother fornicator I have seen since Tyson, is pathetic.

Another thing that totally made me laugh was at the whole Maidana team. They bring a used pair of gloves to the weigh in for inspection, wrapped in saran wrap. Padding was either missing or very loose - and they expected to be able to use them in an even like that? Then piss and moan about not being able to use "their gloves"? I think the whole team are a bunch of freaking morons. I especially fault Garcia for condoning the dirty tactics that Maidana employed, and publicly encouraged him to do more of the same in the second fight. What a dumb ass. Then, complain because the contest was called too close as far as tie-ups being broken up? Hello?

So there was no bite, floyd just getting a break, the knee didn't land, maidana was hitting floyd with one hand while floyd was holding his other arm , I can't see a problem, don't hold , throw punches, that's what you do in boxing, you guys seem more like WWE fans than boxing, a clean fight is just that, excessive holding isn't a defence, it's a foul

By the way, you actually saying that maidana not being allowed to infight in the 2nd fight proves my point that mayweather was protected by Bayliss, and by saying it you also confirm it wasn't a level playing field