BoxRec

Posted: **10 May 2015, 05:48**

...I'd probably give Joshua a year or so before I run out of patience and start criticising the level of his opposition...so far so good...

Posted: **10 May 2015, 08:22**

I think its somewhere in the middle.

I think johnson is a good benchmark. I don't think for 1 minute that it will be a competitive fight but it should last a few rounds and is a box ticked on joshuas resume. If he can go the distance without fading then it looks even more promising. No point putting him in with chisora if he is going to fade after 6 rounds. Much safer putting him in with johnson.

After that then it is time to see if he can step up and take a few against a live opponent.

Posted: **10 May 2015, 08:31**

even sky commentators are saying what is joshua learning from these fight etc.
im not saying put him in with wlad etc

but look at jennings, pulev etv
both had 19-20 fight before ready to face wlad. you could say it was too early for them but now or later, theyd still lose

Posted: **10 May 2015, 08:32**

Old Jack J wrote:I think its somewhere in the middle.

I think johnson is a good benchmark. I don't think for 1 minute that it will be a competitive fight but it should last a few rounds and is a box ticked on joshuas resume. If he can go the distance without fading then it looks even more promising. No point putting him in with chisora if he is going to fade after 6 rounds. Much safer putting him in with johnson.

After that then it is time to see if he can step up and take a few against a live opponent.

id rather see joshua start wining british, commonwealth and then euro title for his resume even if it means Ian lewison, Price, Browne, Duhaupas

Posted: **10 May 2015, 09:09**

cold187 wrote:
Old Jack J wrote:I think its somewhere in the middle.

I think johnson is a good benchmark. I don't think for 1 minute that it will be a competitive fight but it should last a few rounds and is a box ticked on joshuas resume. If he can go the distance without fading then it looks even more promising. No point putting him in with chisora if he is going to fade after 6 rounds. Much safer putting him in with johnson.

After that then it is time to see if he can step up and take a few against a live opponent.
id rather see joshua start wining british, commonwealth and then euro title for his resume even if it means Ian lewison, Price, Browne, Duhaupas

Sure, but it would be nice to see him go the distance first before then. Especially with price and browne. Thats what they are doing with him.

Posted: **10 May 2015, 09:43**

Johnson is a decent opponent compared to what Joshua has been facing, but lets be honest - not great. He lost 5 of his last 8 fights, and 3 in a row.

Posted: **10 May 2015, 10:14**

fergusg wrote:
Lennox wrote:Its actually the other way, he has been moved along quickly. For someone who has only had 12 fights he has already fought TWO top 50 opponents and by the end of this month it will be THREE.

Tonights fight was a waste of time but then most fights are a waste of time.
http://www.independentworldboxingrankings.com

Just look at the numbers, many fighters highly ranked don't have them despite the fact they have conned their way to 25-0 and a title shot.
Why do you feel that Anthony Joshua’s career has progressed quickly? What are you comparing it to?

If we look at another British Olympic champion, such as Lennox Lewis…

During the first 617 days of Lennox Lewis’ career, he’d captured the British and European heavyweight titles and defeated the likes of Ossie Ocasio (who had competed in seven world title fights and fought the likes of Larry Holmes & Evander Holyfield), as well as the world-rated unbeaten knockout specialist, Gary Mason.

By the 30th May and over the equivalent time period, the best victory on Anthony Joshua’s record would have come against Kevin Johnson (a man that has tasted defeat in four of his last five contests and has only scored one sole victory in almost three years).

You’re suggesting that it’s an accomplishment for AJ to have competed against two top 50 ranked fighters when he’s only a twelve fight novice, but let’s not forget that Joshua himself is ranked 6th by the WBC and also 9th by the WBO.

There’s not a human being alive that can eloquently articulate a compelling argument that could justify the reasoning behind Joshua’s fight against an utterly appalling and rancid calibre opponent like Raphael Zumbano Love.

That being said, I’m still a fan of AJ, but if his handlers continue to match him against fleshy unathletic novice amateur white-collar type victims, then I may become concerned about their agenda, which will lead me to suspect that they are protecting him somehow.

I have to be honest, I really don't think that Kevin 'Kingpin' Johnson is any good, but I concede that he does represent a mildly moderate step up in class for AJ, which I suppose should be considered as a progression of sorts… and we may finally see Anthony Joshua taken past the third round for the very first time in his career.

Fergus I am not really disagreeing with you on most of your points. Whilst I am 'sarcastically' suggesting it is an accomplishment, it is in the scheme of things what happens, if you go to my website http://www.independentworldboxingrankings.com and look at the rankings we are quoting 1700 currently best active fighters, you can view their last twenty fights, and anything that is a W is a win against a non top 100 type fighter, the numbers relate to the pre-fight ranking of the opponent. Zambrano Love was ranked 124. So whilst he was pretty shit v AJ this type of opponent is very typical for most fighters. Lomachenko's and some flyweights do fight very early in top class but it is still rare.
Fighters need to learn, and sometimes that is getting used to big arenas, southpaws, spoilers, punchers, durable guys that last. Sometimes things dont go to plan (50% of the time) and opponents change. In this instance AJ has been busy, and with probaly THREE wins v top 50 opponents in 13 fights, that already is more top 50 opponents than many household names, Frans Botha, Axel Schutlz only ever beat ONE top 50 opponent. Wilder, stiverne and Jennings are all 3 wins v top 50 fighters. Another thing to consider is £$£$£$. Opponents for AJ are reduced as many want too much and over-value themselves, the ones that will fight want triple money, so to have three fights in 7-8 weeks might be a bit of economics, he is just off an injury after all...please go check out the statistics I produce, they are pretty shocking, and in the land of the blind the one eyed AJ is king.

Posted: **10 May 2015, 11:49**

Pre fight - Rankings of who they fought up to first title fight (W = non top 100 opponent)

Lennox Lewis : W W W W W W 60 W W W 81 56 W 14 9 58 77 34 46 26 W 4
Anthony Joshua : W W W W W W W W 45 49 W W
Mike Tyson : W W W W W W W W W W W 93 37 W W 98 94 36 W 59 26 32 W W 10 22 9

Posted: **10 May 2015, 12:36**

Its a bit early to predict that Joshua is a legend in the making just yet, don't you think? He has a very good start, but let him get challenged a few times first. There are quite a few boxers that start out good (legend-like) with limited competition.

Posted: **10 May 2015, 14:10**

Once more Fergus doesn't appear to understand how boxing works.

Posted: **10 May 2015, 18:21**

oh you know, just you being so shocked by supposed soft matchmaking when a) the like of which is common to pretty much every top heavyweight when they started out and b) Joshua is actually being moved quickly compared to those folks. He is now ranked 20 on Boxrec, incidentally.

Posted: **10 May 2015, 20:20**

Can'r really complain with his level of opposition at this stage. Zumbano Love was always a filler fight while the stiffer test in Johnson was just around the corner.

Love has a manufactured record his best win probably the 12 round points victory over Pucheta in 2010. He has shown some durability however with loses to Pudar, Aurieng and Briggs recently via points all over 12 rounds. And having taken contenders Martin 10 rounds and Molina 8 rounds respectively.

So for AJ to just blow him out in such fashion demonstrates hes certainly ready for the likes of Johnson who will test him as hes never been stopped before and AJ certainly could do with some work/rounds.

Posted: **10 May 2015, 20:41**

Imo half the problem is that Hearn's cards have been so God awful recently that Joshua has been used to draw an audience. In the past the "legends" wouldn't have been getting prime air time for these as effectively main event bouts.

If Joshua vs Love was a supporting bout to a good main event the complaints wouldn't be as loud as they are. When you consider that that the rest of the card is crap then Joshua will get the brunt of the stick as he's the main event and the future saviour of the division.

It's all well and good saying he's a work in progress but he should be moving forward. A British title would have been a great move, even if he's head and shoulders above the likes of Lewison and McDermott.

He's clearly improved since his debut but these fights don't tell us much about how far he's developed.

Posted: **10 May 2015, 22:24**

Boxing Prospect wrote:
He's clearly improved since his debut but these fights don't tell us much about how far he's developed.

That's were I am at. I know he is good. I just have no idea how good.

Posted: **10 May 2015, 23:25**

cold187 wrote:even sky commentators are saying what is joshua learning from these fight etc.
im not saying put him in with wlad etc

but look at jennings, pulev etv
both had 19-20 fight before ready to face wlad. you could say it was too early for them but now or later, theyd still lose

Are Pulev and Jennings the same age as Joshua? Because last time I checked, Joshua is 5 years younger than Jennings and 9 years younger than Pulev.

Posted: **11 May 2015, 03:01**

Lackeos wrote:
cold187 wrote:even sky commentators are saying what is joshua learning from these fight etc.
im not saying put him in with wlad etc

but look at jennings, pulev etv
both had 19-20 fight before ready to face wlad. you could say it was too early for them but now or later, theyd still lose
Are Pulev and Jennings the same age as Joshua? Because last time I checked, Joshua is 5 years younger than Jennings and 9 years younger than Pulev.

age dont mean nothing.
Wlad us 25 when he was champion,
and is still champ at 39

look at who pulev was fighting after handful of fights

saying that AJ is facing same kinda opposition of david price, id say pretty much equal

Posted: **11 May 2015, 05:57**

Lennox wrote:Pre fight - Rankings of who they fought up to first title fight (W = non top 100 opponent)

Lennox Lewis : W W W W W W 60 W W W 81 56 W 14 9 58 77 34 46 26 W 4
Anthony Joshua : W W W W W W W W 45 49 W W
Mike Tyson : W W W W W W W W W W W 93 37 W W 98 94 36 W 59 26 32 W W 10 22 9

Interesting post

Posted: **11 May 2015, 08:09**

fergusg wrote:
Lennox wrote:Pre fight - Rankings of who they fought up to first title fight (W = non top 100 opponent)
I have to be honest, I don’t know very much about “The Independent World Boxing Rankings” (the source of your information) barring the fact that they deal with the rankings for one of the very minor governing bodies (the IBO).

Therefore, your list of W’s and numbers doesn’t mean very much to me (and I'm not being derogatory either), but I’ll try to translate what you’ve written in the context of what I believe the situation to be (by comparing the first 600+ days or so of the careers of Lewis, Tyson and Joshua):
Lennox wrote:Lennox Lewis : W W W W W W 60 W W W 81 56 W 14 9 58 77 34 46 26 W 4
• Scored a lop-sided points victory over Ossie Ocasio (a man that had: competed in seven world title fights; challenged Larry Holmes for his WBC World heavyweight title; held the WBA world cruiserweight belt for almost two years; challenged Evander Holyfield for his undisputed 190lbs crown; and faced several world champions).
• Captured the European heavyweight title from Jean-Maurice Chanet (a belt the Frenchman won from the excellent Derek Williams) and made two successful defences.
• Lennox defeated the unbeaten world-rated knockout artist and British Champion, Gary Mason, who Lewis eventually defeated (and captured his belt) after being a pro for 617 days.
Lennox wrote:Mike Tyson : W W W W W W W W W W W 93 37 W W 98 94 36 W 59 26 32 W W 10 22 9
• Mike Tyson wasn’t good enough to make the US Olympic team and went pro at 18½ years of age. So he didn't have a lot of amateur experience to support his entrance into the pro ranks.
• In 626 days, he’d competed in 28 fights (with 26 KO’s) and also captured the WBC world heavyweight title when he scored a second round KO of Trevor Berbick in order to become the youngest heayweight champion in history (at 20 years, 4 months, 3 weeks and 2 days old).
Lennox wrote:Anthony Joshua : W W W W W W W W 45 49 W W
• By the 30th May, over the period of 601 days and since his pro debut, which was shortly before his 24th birthday, the best victory on Anthony Joshua’s 13-fight record would have come against Kevin Johnson (a man that has tasted defeat in four of his last five contests and has only scored one sole victory in almost three years).

When you’ve compared what I’ve written to the stats you’ve supplied, do you really believe that Anthony Joshua’s career has progressed anywhere near as quickly as the first 600+ days of the careers of Lennox Lewis and Mike Tyson?

The nature of your post suggests that it is, which doesn’t seem right to me.

It may not seem right to you but yes Anthony Joshua has been moved along fast. (The lower the number the better the fighter) You quote Ossie Ocasio in reference to Lennox but dismiss Matt Skelton toward Anthony Joshua. Days don't really matter its number of fights, AJ has been sidelined with an injury but even making a case that AJ has not been moved as fast as LL, it has been relatively fast. It is hard to match AJ. IMO I think he is top 3 already, but he still needs to learn big fight experience. I don't think your being fair to his management. I suspect at 19-0 and 18 months time AJ will be ready.

Posted: **11 May 2015, 10:00**

fergusg wrote:
Lennox wrote:Days don't really matter its number of fights
We’ll agree to disagree on our thoughts on how fast AJ’s career has progressed.

That being said, in terms of the above statement you made, if a fighter only competes once per year, then time has to be considered as a factor when gauging career progress. So I feel that "days" really does matter.

The simple fact remains, within the same time period, Tyson and Lewis both achieved more than Anthony Joshua has done so far… and both men experienced at least one spell of inactivity for approx. three months during the same time-frame, which is the equivalent that AJ was out for with his back injury.

Even IF you go with the fights argument, Lennox's 12th was the Ocasio bout, his 14th was a European title bout, in his 15th he unified British and European, in his 16th he beat a former world champion (albeit a a shot Weaver), then another former champion, had the European, Commonwealth and British all unified in fight #20, less than 3 years after turning pro.

So I guess if Joshua fights fights for the European in his first fight after Johnson I'll cut him some slack...I suspect the title will be vacant by then though

Posted: **11 May 2015, 10:48**

fergusg wrote:
Lennox wrote:Days don't really matter its number of fights
We’ll agree to disagree on our thoughts on how fast AJ’s career has progressed.

That being said, in terms of the above statement you made, if a fighter only competes once per year, then time has to be considered as a factor when gauging career progress. So I feel that "days" really does matter.

The simple fact remains, within the same time period, Tyson and Lewis both achieved more than Anthony Joshua has done so far… and both men experienced at least one spell of inactivity for approx. three months during the same time-frame, which is the equivalent that AJ was out for with his back injury.

Ferg : It is not a case of diasgreeing you are factually wrong. The simple fact is that they did not achieve more, unless you think it is all a race. AJ has been injured. If you go by the first 12 fights then AJ has bettered LL and MT. If you go by time then Mike Tyson is a winner. But discounting all of that at heavyweight in the last 25 years he is in the top 4 for the most advanced career/highest independent ranking. Oleg Maskaev beat Miroschnichenko in his first fight.

Posted: **11 May 2015, 11:51**

Quite amusing that Fergus-Bot doesn't seem to have reacted well to stats that weren't supplied by him despite said stats being pretty easy to interpret

Posted: **11 May 2015, 12:32**

Anthony Joshua after 12 fights has had 10 non top 100 opponents, best opponent 45 next best 49.
Lennox Lewis after 12 fights had 9 non top 100 opponents best was 56 then 60 then 81.
Mike Tyson after 12 fights had 11 non top 100 opponents, best opponent was 93.

I will conceed that not all fighters ranked 45 are better than another ranked 60. The detail does not really matter, the fact is that out of all the fighters at heavyweight very few have taken on high ranked opponents like Anthony Joshua. Your claim is he is fighting patsies he is not, he is just very good. Zambrano Love may not be the greatest fighter neither was Jason Gavern but they are heavyweights that do win fights and will test the heavyweights ranked from 50-100 perhaps even get a win.

Former champions or challengers are fine but is there much point in Anthony Joshua fighting Kevin McBride or Danny Williams just because they beat Tyson. It is really more about a fighters ability at the time of the fight....hence the pre-fight ranking is the most important in real terms, commercially and for selling fights I agree a former champ might be better.

You are talking like someone that really does not understand how it works or what is good or bad, but the real truth is that Anthony Joshua has mixed in a pretty high class for a 12-0 fighter already not as you stated.

Posted: **11 May 2015, 13:20**

Can we all just agree that Joshua is a talent that needs to step up his competition a bit?

I like the kid- hell, I am on record saying he may be Joe Louis come back to bless us in a bigger frame.

But he is going to have to prove all this in the ring.

My advice to him is to follow Wlad's backtrail.

Try the Wachs, Pianetas, Pulevs, and Leapais of the world.

Fight 2 of the four. This year.

He gets past those, then Povetkin or Jennings the first part of 2016.

He gets past them, he is ready.

Posted: **11 May 2015, 18:37**

It is important to recongise that Anthony Joshua is only two fights removed from his longest lay off through his back injury so it is important to have a couple of 'gimme' fights for him to get some rounds in the bank to shake the rust off before going to the tough Johnson fight he has at the end of the month.

I think Matchroom have watched Big Josh well for at Heavyweight at the stage of his career and have given plenty of exposure and have kept in active now we want to see fight for some domestic honours.

Posted: **11 May 2015, 19:42**

Has anyone tried comparing Joshua's first 12 opponents to Wilder's first 12 opponents yet?

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