BoxRec

Povetkin inside three rounds. Povetkin is clearly the second best heavyweight on the planet and style wise is a complete nightmare,

BAD INTENTIONS wrote:The Euro-bias is in full effect. Wilder KO's Povetkin or cruises to an easy decision.

Or we can do thing where we say Wilder will lose every fight, and when he finally does, we all say he was a bum.

Just like your African American bias is in full effect every time out?

keithmoonhangover wrote:Povetkin inside three rounds. Povetkin is clearly the second best heavyweight on the planet and style wise is a complete nightmare,

I agree but keep your wallet out of it.

palooka wrote:

keithmoonhangover wrote:Povetkin inside three rounds. Povetkin is clearly the second best heavyweight on the planet and style wise is a complete nightmare,

I agree but keep your wallet out of it.

Yes sir.

BAD INTENTIONS wrote:The Euro-bias is in full effect. Wilder KO's Povetkin or cruises to an easy decision.

Or we can do thing where we say Wilder will lose every fight, and when he finally does, we all say he was a bum.

Captain PC here to cry foul again.

Badhusker wrote:To say Wilder's chin and heart are not good, is an opinion, but based on no facts at all. Maybe if he gets floored and KO'd a few times, his chin will be down to Wlad's level. I think the jury is still out, and won't ever say a fighter has no heart or chin until they prove it true.

As for Povetkin vs Wilder, right now I would pick Wilder by a close UD, but possible KO win. Wilder will have to look and perform better than he did vs Molina though. If he fights like he did against Stiverne, I think he wins. His jab will be the key, and will T-off on Povetkin. He needs to stay off the ropes though.

Wilder was hurt by Molina, dropped by Sconiers, flattened in an amateur bout, and wobbled by Haye in sparring. He's also been consistently matched against weak opponents, having fought only two people whom I'd consider even top 25 with one of them being feather-fisted, which could be reasonably seen as a sign that his team have worries--perhaps based on a combination of what they've seen in fights and sparring--about how he'll hold up against top opposition. I think all of these are facts that could lead one to think that he's got chin issues, and while his fragility is probably exaggerated by some I don't think it's unreasonable to believe that likely doesn't take a good shot. I haven't seen anything within any of his bouts that suggests a lack of heart, though I imagine that some people may take his consistent bottom-feeding as evidence of it.

The gameplan that he adopted against Stiverne should be a fairly good one to use against Povetkin and the jab will be very important for him. If he starts to get as sloppy as he did against Molina I think he'll probably be knocked out by Povetkin, who is far better than anyone he's faced so far and not someone who would lose/draw with journeymen and get soundly outboxed by 40 year old Ray Austin for nearly 10 rounds. If Wilder could come through against Povetkin it would make a statement and his reputation would deserve a significant boost.

crusader wrote:

Badhusker wrote:To say Wilder's chin and heart are not good, is an opinion, but based on no facts at all. Maybe if he gets floored and KO'd a few times, his chin will be down to Wlad's level. I think the jury is still out, and won't ever say a fighter has no heart or chin until they prove it true.

As for Povetkin vs Wilder, right now I would pick Wilder by a close UD, but possible KO win. Wilder will have to look and perform better than he did vs Molina though. If he fights like he did against Stiverne, I think he wins. His jab will be the key, and will T-off on Povetkin. He needs to stay off the ropes though.

Wilder was hurt by Molina, dropped by Sconiers, flattened in an amateur bout, and wobbled by Haye in sparring. He's also been consistently matched against weak opponents, having fought only two people whom I'd consider even top 25 with one of them being feather-fisted, which could be reasonably seen as a sign that his team have worries--perhaps based on a combination of what they've seen in fights and sparring--about how he'll hold up against top opposition. I think all of these are facts that could lead one to think that he's got chin issues, and while his fragility is probably exaggerated by some I don't think it's unreasonable to believe that likely doesn't take a good shot. I haven't seen anything within any of his bouts that suggests a lack of heart, though I imagine that some people may take his consistent bottom-feeding as evidence of it.

The gameplan that he adopted against Stiverne should be a fairly good one to use against Povetkin and the jab will be very important for him. If he starts to get as sloppy as he did against Molina I think he'll probably be knocked out by Povetkin, who is far better than anyone he's faced so far and not someone who would lose/draw with journeymen and get soundly outboxed by 40 year old Ray Austin for nearly 10 rounds. If Wilder could come through against Povetkin it would make a statement and his reputation would deserve a significant boost.

Sparring, amateur bouts, things that happened 20 fights ago, are not what I would say cause legitimate concerns for having a weak chin. Most all heavys have the power to KO the other. Many, many champions have been stunned by punches, knocked down, etc, that have solid chins. Wlad was KO'd about 20 fights ago, and twice more before that, but I don't think he has a weak chin. Competition does play a factor, true, but Wilder did take some solid shots vs Stiverne, and handled them fine.

First, sparring and amateur bouts involve the use of shock reducing gloves designed to minimize the impact of blows, so I don't believe instances of someone being hurt in sparring or amateur fights should be discounted--in fact, it was his documented fragility as an amateur that led many to question David Price's chin as he was blowing opponents away, and it turned out those concerns were well founded.

Now the examples I listed don't prove that Wilder has a poor chin, but it's ridiculous to act like there is no evidence that could be used to support the position that he doesn't take a good shot. He has been hurt multiple times already and is being matched in ways that make it seem highly likely that his team--those who probably know the most about him--aren't the most confident in him holding up against top opposition. I'd also say that Wlad clearly does have a poor chin, but he's done a very good job of protecting it against top opponents and thus it hasn't been a major detriment to him lately.

The Stiverne win was nice but let's not overplay it. Stiverne is a guy who had already lost to and drawn with different journeymen, and he was clearly outboxed by 40 year old Ray Austin for nearly 10 rounds as he followed him around like a lost puppy (kind of like he did against DW), which showed obvious limitations and led me to confidently predict when the fight materialized a few years later that he'd be stopped by Deontay. After that come from behind win Bermane then scored his respectable wins over Arreola, but Chris has always been no better than second tier and I don't think beating him is really that impressive. I believe we've already discussed whether Wilder proved his chin against Stiverne and I maintained and still believe that he took very few clean shots, meaning that his chin was still a question. You claimed otherwise, only for him to be visibly hurt in his next bout against Molina, a guy who was stopped in a little over two minutes in his only previous bout with a decent fighter.

So the Stiverne win was laudable and I believe that Deontay put on an intelligent and disciplined performance that justifies him being ranked in the top 5, but when that's his only win over a top 10 fighter and he's fought only one other guy I considered to be even top 25 at the time, it hardly answers all the questions for me.

Using your "logic", 95% of boxers have suspect chins.

crusader wrote:

Badhusker wrote:To say Wilder's chin and heart are not good, is an opinion, but based on no facts at all. Maybe if he gets floored and KO'd a few times, his chin will be down to Wlad's level. I think the jury is still out, and won't ever say a fighter has no heart or chin until they prove it true.

As for Povetkin vs Wilder, right now I would pick Wilder by a close UD, but possible KO win. Wilder will have to look and perform better than he did vs Molina though. If he fights like he did against Stiverne, I think he wins. His jab will be the key, and will T-off on Povetkin. He needs to stay off the ropes though.

Wilder was hurt by Molina, dropped by Sconiers, flattened in an amateur bout, and wobbled by Haye in sparring. He's also been consistently matched against weak opponents, having fought only two people whom I'd consider even top 25 with one of them being feather-fisted, which could be reasonably seen as a sign that his team have worries--perhaps based on a combination of what they've seen in fights and sparring--about how he'll hold up against top opposition. I think all of these are facts that could lead one to think that he's got chin issues, and while his fragility is probably exaggerated by some I don't think it's unreasonable to believe that likely doesn't take a good shot. I haven't seen anything within any of his bouts that suggests a lack of heart, though I imagine that some people may take his consistent bottom-feeding as evidence of it.

The gameplan that he adopted against Stiverne should be a fairly good one to use against Povetkin and the jab will be very important for him. If he starts to get as sloppy as he did against Molina I think he'll probably be knocked out by Povetkin, who is far better than anyone he's faced so far and not someone who would lose/draw with journeymen and get soundly outboxed by 40 year old Ray Austin for nearly 10 rounds. If Wilder could come through against Povetkin it would make a statement and his reputation would deserve a significant boost.

Good post

Badhusker wrote:Using your "logic", 95% of boxers have suspect chins.

But according to yours, none do.

The whole point of "suspect" is that we don't know. You have to look for clues. He mentioned David Price as an example. He confirmed his suspect chin, which was suspect based on his amateur career and sparring stories. Another guy I remember from a few years back was Jean Francois Bergeron. A lot of my Canadian friends had him tagged as a possible champ; the only question being that he got KO'd hard by Attilla Levin as an amateur. Sure enough, he got KO'd hard in his second (and last) step up fight.

Wilder absolutely has a suspect chin based on his entire body of work (AND lack thereof).

Molina boxed and fought out of his skin and really surprised me but I think Poverkin would ruin him. Wilder is exciting but not tutored or schooled, his power could end up being detrimental to his career as he can hit but can't fight.

Badhusker wrote:Using your "logic", 95% of boxers have suspect chins.

I'd say Wilder's chin is an especially big question since most don't consistently bottom-feed (only two top 25 opponents in nearly 7 year imo and Scott is feather-fisted) to the extent that he does while having his past of being hurt. His opponent selection makes me think that it's very likely that his team knows something about him that makes them reluctant to match him against more dangerous opposition, and I think it may well be a lack of durability.

I'll point out again, just for the sake of it, that you were on here before claiming how he proved his chin against Stiverne, only for him to be put on jelly legs in his next bout by Molina. In my view that's the type of thing that shows it's still a question and not a closed case with DW having proven that his chin is fine.

palooka wrote:Good post

Thank you sir

Curious, do you think Wlad has a suspect chin since he was KO'd 3 times?

How about Joshua, who was flattened a couple of times in the amateurs?

Or Fury, who has been knocked down a few times?

Wlad: I think he clearly has a poor chin but he's consistently shown that he's very good at protecting it against high-level opposition rather than at best a pair of top 25 opponents, one of whom struggled significantly to land on 40 year old, coming off a loss Ray Austin.

Joshua: His chin is still a question as he's hardly been touched as a pro and was hurt multiple times as an amateur. I disagree that he was 'flattened' multiple times though, as he was only stopped once and he wasn't even dropped in that fight or all over the place like Wilder was in his amateur stoppage defeat. He's also being matched tougher than Wilder was at a comparable stage in his career which to me suggests that his team have more confidence in him.

Fury: Very suspect chin and I think most likely not a good one given that he's been down against light-hitters and seems to have been steered away from punchers, though his matchmaking has still been more ambitious than Wilder's.

Anyhow, Wilder is going to earn a lot of money.

The negotiation will go to purse bid, and Povetkin's oligarch will pay plenty to bring the fight to Moscow (same as with Klichko, wasted 24M).

Both Povetkin and Wilder are overrated, but I never saw Povetkin handle big guy with real punch...

palooka wrote:Molina boxed and fought out of his skin and really surprised me but I think Poverkin would ruin him. Wilder is exciting but not tutored or schooled, his power could end up being detrimental to his career as he can hit but can't fight.

I agree but don't understand why Wilder looks so raw given his coach is Mark Breland a tremendously gifted technical fighter.

rm1 wrote:

palooka wrote:Molina boxed and fought out of his skin and really surprised me but I think Poverkin would ruin him. Wilder is exciting but not tutored or schooled, his power could end up being detrimental to his career as he can hit but can't fight.

I agree but don't understand why Wilder looks so raw given his coach is Mark Breland a tremendously gifted technical fighter.

Maybe he's just not that good - you can only work with what you have.