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Re: Duran vs Leonard I: 35 Years Later, Duran's Finest Hour
Posted: 28 Jun 2015, 12:31
by Baby Face Finster
I didn't see the fight until much, later but I found out about Duran winning when I received the Saturday edition of my Toronto Star newspapers that I was going to deliver for that day. I will always remember seeing the headline saying Duran beat Leonard.
Re: Duran vs Leonard I: 35 Years Later, Duran's Finest Hour
Posted: 28 Jun 2015, 13:17
by elmersalsa
Ambling Alp II wrote:That was the main thing.
Of course there is other silly logic.
Duran fighting fighting at 154 is not comparable at all to Leonard not fighting at 175:
First, Duran was only moving up 3 weight classes and 19 pounds. For Leonard to fight at 175, he would be moving up 4 weight classes and 28 pounds.
Secondly, Duran did not just go from fighting at 135 (against guys who did not weigh more than 135) in one fight and go straight into fighting at 154.
He did this very gradually over time as his body filled out. He fought several non-title fights at over 135 when he was still lightweight champion. After giving up the lightweight title in 1978, he fought several fights at 147 before winning the welterweight title. As being decisively beaten by Leonard, he fought several fights as a Jr Middleweight before losing to Benitez.
Your body fills out as you get older. Hearns moved up, Benitez moved. Armstrong moved up from featherweight, won titles at lightweight welterweight, and almost middleweight. Manny Pac moved up over time from flyweight all the way to welterweight.
It's been proven time and time against that it's normal for fighters in lower weight classes to move up in weight.
It is abnormal for someone to start out at lightweight and remain there for the rest of their career.
No reason at all to think Duran was not close to his prime when he lost to Benitez. Benitez himself had moved up a couple of weight classes. And losing to Laing at that stage in his career is embarrassing. Not much to backup the past his excuse.
Of course, there is always an excuse with Duran, isn't there?
What do you mean Duran fightinG at 154 is not the same thing as Leonard fighting at 175lbs. That is a FAIR ASSESSMENT. Even if it's 168 or 175lbs, Leonard would have not had the speed and agility like he did at 147. Never less the punch to hurt a bona-fide and great light heavy or super middleweight fighter.
Leonard beat Benitez, Duran (in an off night), and Hearns IN HIS WEIGHT CLASS. He didn't have to go up in class to beat them. Duran NEVER HAD THAT LUXURY. IN FACT, HE HAD TO GO UP TO WHUPPED LEONARD.
I CANNOT IMAGINE a featherweight or a jr. Lightweight taking Duran's crown. The great Alexis Arguello did not come up. I wonder why. He had a puncher's chance against Manos de Piedra, but, that would not be enough.
So what about a lightweight fighting middleweights? I have never seen that in the history of boxing. A lightweight being competitive and giving middleweights HELL like Duran did, is remarkable. If Duran stayed at lightweight, is wrong. If he goes up and loses, is also wrong. Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't.
HE always had to go up in weight to fight somebody. The going up in weight was Duran's biggest enemy.
DURAN THE BEST!
Re: Duran vs Leonard I: 35 Years Later, Duran's Finest Hour
Posted: 28 Jun 2015, 13:31
by keithmoonhangover
elmersalsa wrote:DURAN THE BEST!
That says it all. Your comments are clouded by your complete biased on the subject.
Leonard would never have lost to Dejesus and would never have quit in the rematch.
Please try and answer this post without biased.
Re: Duran vs Leonard I: 35 Years Later, Duran's Finest Hour
Posted: 28 Jun 2015, 14:10
by elmersalsa
keithmoonhangover wrote:elmersalsa wrote:DURAN THE BEST!
That says it all. Your comments are clouded by your complete biased on the subject.
Leonard would never have lost to Dejesus and would never have quit in the rematch.
Please try and answer this post without biased.
Esteban De Jesus was an excellent fighter. He was not a bum. He was very good.
Duran Whupped Leonard, fair and square. He dominated the fight. And he did it going up 2 weight classes. How about that, Mister.
Re: Duran vs Leonard I: 35 Years Later, Duran's Finest Hour
Posted: 28 Jun 2015, 14:11
by keithmoonhangover
elmersalsa wrote:keithmoonhangover wrote:elmersalsa wrote:DURAN THE BEST!
That says it all. Your comments are clouded by your complete biased on the subject.
Leonard would never have lost to Dejesus and would never have quit in the rematch.
Please try and answer this post without biased.
Esteban De Jesus was an excellent fighter. He was not a bum. He was very good.
Duran Whupped Leonard, fair and square. He dominated the fight. And he did it going up 2 weight classes. How about that, Mister.
I feel like for you, this is a contest, not a discussion. Do you consider yourself biased on the subject of Duran?
Re: Duran vs Leonard I: 35 Years Later, Duran's Finest Hour
Posted: 28 Jun 2015, 14:36
by elmersalsa
Ambling Alp is biased towards Sugar Ray
Re: Duran vs Leonard I: 35 Years Later, Duran's Finest Hour
Posted: 28 Jun 2015, 14:41
by keithmoonhangover
elmersalsa wrote:Ambling Alp is biased towards Sugar Ray
I'm not talking about Ambling Alp. I'm asking you a s question.
Re: Duran vs Leonard I: 35 Years Later, Duran's Finest Hour
Posted: 28 Jun 2015, 15:12
by stevedoc
keithmoonhangover wrote:I'm not a Duran fan, but he fought a hell of a fight. he managed Leonard perfectly in the build up and also in the ring. If Leonard fought the wrong tactical fight, he only has himself to blame.
I was going to say how can you not be a Duran fan but I'm not an Ali fan
Re: Duran vs Leonard I: 35 Years Later, Duran's Finest Hour
Posted: 28 Jun 2015, 15:21
by keithmoonhangover
stevedoc wrote:keithmoonhangover wrote:I'm not a Duran fan, but he fought a hell of a fight. he managed Leonard perfectly in the build up and also in the ring. If Leonard fought the wrong tactical fight, he only has himself to blame.
I was going to say how can you not be a Duran fan but I'm not an Ali fan
I respect Duran mate and I talk about him in an unbiased fashion. Quitting with no injury is unforgivable IMO. Could you imagine Hagler, Hearns or Leonard just quitting in the middle of a fight? Not a chance.
Re: Duran vs Leonard I: 35 Years Later, Duran's Finest Hour
Posted: 28 Jun 2015, 15:39
by stevedoc
keithmoonhangover wrote:stevedoc wrote:keithmoonhangover wrote:I'm not a Duran fan, but he fought a hell of a fight. he managed Leonard perfectly in the build up and also in the ring. If Leonard fought the wrong tactical fight, he only has himself to blame.
I was going to say how can you not be a Duran fan but I'm not an Ali fan
I respect Duran mate and I talk about him in an unbiased fashion. Quitting with no injury is unforgivable IMO. Could you imagine Hagler, Hearns or Leonard just quitting in the middle of a fight? Not a chance.
True I remember my brother sticking up for Duran saying Leonard was taking the piss rather than fighting and my dad calling Duran a wanker for it quitting
Re: Duran vs Leonard I: 35 Years Later, Duran's Finest Hour
Posted: 28 Jun 2015, 15:43
by keithmoonhangover
stevedoc wrote:keithmoonhangover wrote:stevedoc wrote:
I was going to say how can you not be a Duran fan but I'm not an Ali fan
I respect Duran mate and I talk about him in an unbiased fashion. Quitting with no injury is unforgivable IMO. Could you imagine Hagler, Hearns or Leonard just quitting in the middle of a fight? Not a chance.
True I remember my brother sticking up for Duran saying Leonard was taking the piss rather than fighting and my dad calling Duran a wanker for it quitting
Leonard was dancing far too much for my taste, but that was his choice.
Re: Duran vs Leonard I: 35 Years Later, Duran's Finest Hour
Posted: 28 Jun 2015, 17:38
by Seamus
My only point on the first bout is that it was an extremely close contest, which neither man dominated, and if Leonard had gotten the verdict, it wouldn't exactly make the top 100 bad decisions of alltime.
Re: Duran vs Leonard I: 35 Years Later, Duran's Finest Hour
Posted: 28 Jun 2015, 18:55
by keithmoonhangover
Seamus wrote:My only point on the first bout is that it was an extremely close contest, which neither man dominated, and if Leonard had gotten the verdict, it wouldn't exactly make the top 100 bad decisions of alltime.
Re: Duran vs Leonard I: 35 Years Later, Duran's Finest Hour
Posted: 28 Jun 2015, 20:09
by elmersalsa
Seamus wrote:My only point on the first bout is that it was an extremely close contest, which neither man dominated, and if Leonard had gotten the verdict, it wouldn't exactly make the top 100 bad decisions of alltime.
That fight was not close at all. Duran whupped him good.
Re: Duran vs Leonard I: 35 Years Later, Duran's Finest Hour
Posted: 28 Jun 2015, 20:19
by Seamus
The New York Times unofficially had Leonard winning by 2, Ferdie Pacheco had him by a pt. AS Ambling Alp said, Didn't you have Duran winning by 3 ? That's hardly whupped.
Re: Duran vs Leonard I: 35 Years Later, Duran's Finest Hour
Posted: 28 Jun 2015, 21:18
by elmersalsa
Seamus wrote:The New York Times unofficially had Leonard winning by 2, Ferdie Pacheco had him by a pt. AS Ambling Alp said, Didn't you have Duran winning by 3 ? That's hardly whupped.
Pacheco always been a Muhammad Ali and Sugar Ray Leonard ass kisser. Talking about biased, this is the most biased man in boxing. He never gave Roberto Duran credit in that fight. At least Howard Costello gave Duran some credit. That fight was maximum five pts and minimum 3 pts
Re: Duran vs Leonard I: 35 Years Later, Duran's Finest Hour
Posted: 28 Jun 2015, 21:49
by Ambling Alp II
You had it by three points. Is three points a "whupping"?
How about a straight answer elmer?
Re: Duran vs Leonard I: 35 Years Later, Duran's Finest Hour
Posted: 28 Jun 2015, 22:04
by stevedoc
Ambling Alp II wrote:You had it by three points. Is three points a "whupping"?
How about a straight answer elmer?
Duran won no doubt was it a whupping I'd say yes Duran won his rounds big and hurt ray more than once
Re: Duran vs Leonard I: 35 Years Later, Duran's Finest Hour
Posted: 28 Jun 2015, 22:37
by Ambling Alp II
I'm waiting for elmer to answer if winning by three points is a "whupping"?
It is a simple yes or no question.
Re: Duran vs Leonard I: 35 Years Later, Duran's Finest Hour
Posted: 29 Jun 2015, 03:46
by Counter-puncher
Ambling Alp II wrote:You had it by three points. Is three points a "whupping"?
How about a straight answer elmer?
Counter-puncher wrote:Ambling Alp II wrote:huh? Was alcohol involved when making your post?
Hi, alp, you have much more patience with Elmo than I could manage. The thread has thrown up a few interesting questions, though, which I will put forward for your consideration
Featherweights who could come up to 135 and beat Duran? I would suggest that both Arguello and Sanchez would have a shot.... (is it out of the question that either man could take one fight out of 3 with Duran like Dejesus did? Though Arguello was proven above 126 in a way that Sanchez wasn't, as it happens I think Sanchez maybe had a better style to deal with Duran- quicker feet and hands, better head movement and counterpuncher, more compact puncher than Arguello)
Henry Armstrong certainly could go up to 135 from featherweight and beat Duran.
Any more?
Benitez 'only' beat an old/154lb Duran, and wouldn't manage the same at 147lbs. Again I would suggest Benitez has a shot, there; I think he would be less likely than the young and greenish Leonard to be mentally intimidated by Duran, and the fight he did have with Duran, irrespective of Durand being allegedly past it.by that point, I think that fight showed that Benitez' style matched pretty well with Durans. Out of the question that he could at least take one fight in three from Duran?
Also, alp, you mention slightly mockingly that Duran 'only' beat Leonard by 3pts or whatever. I have some sympathy with his position there. You know the phrase 'closer in the ring than on the cards'? That describes those scorecards for me: The early rounds Duran won, he won clearly and kicked leonards ass for him. The later rounds Leonard won, were much closer I m o, and were in any case won against a fighter who was coasting just a little, I m o.
Re: Duran vs Leonard I: 35 Years Later, Duran's Finest Hour
Posted: 29 Jun 2015, 05:09
by keithmoonhangover
The one thing that makes me chuckle is how Duran went from beating SRL in the first fight to being past it in the second fight.
Re: Duran vs Leonard I: 35 Years Later, Duran's Finest Hour
Posted: 29 Jun 2015, 07:59
by orbtastic
In one of the recent-ish books about Duran/Leonard (think it may have been four kings) it details what both fighters ate for breakfast the morning of the fight. It's quite illuminating. Duran's weight ballooning up to ~190lbs is well documented and Leonard himself knew that a quick rematch would favour him in that respect. Duran's lack of discipline and training habits are also well documented, not retrospectively either. There's a lengthy piece about Duran in Sports Illustrated after he lost to Benitez where they all but wrote his career off. Ironic one of boxing's more notorious non-trainers actually training for a fight (and winning).
http://www.si.com/vault/1982/02/08/5647 ... redemption
There's another article I can't find but have read as I've got the magazine, where it talks about how they had real trouble keeping Duran in training camp.
Re: Duran vs Leonard I: 35 Years Later, Duran's Finest Hour
Posted: 29 Jun 2015, 08:10
by orbtastic
Re: Duran vs Leonard I: 35 Years Later, Duran's Finest Hour
Posted: 29 Jun 2015, 09:22
by Counter-puncher
elmersalsa wrote:
I CANNOT IMAGINE a featherweight or a jr. Lightweight taking Duran's crown.
your imagination needs to try picturing Henry Armstrong
Re: Duran vs Leonard I: 35 Years Later, Duran's Finest Hour
Posted: 29 Jun 2015, 09:25
by Counter-puncher
orbtastic wrote:There's a lengthy piece about Duran in Sports Illustrated after he lost to Benitez where they all but wrote his career off. Ironic one of boxing's more notorious non-trainers actually training for a fight (and winning).
http://www.si.com/vault/1982/02/08/5647 ... redemption
.
see my post above, mate. I think that fight showed that on style grounds, Benitez would have caused Duran problems at any weight or any time.
I'd be interested in the thoughts of any poster not named elmo, on that one....