BoxRec

stevedoc wrote:

littlepug wrote:Darrin van horn

Up to he was 23

A schoolboy indeed

littlepug wrote:Darrin van horn

Good call

littlepug wrote:

stevedoc wrote:

littlepug wrote:Darrin van horn

Up to he was 23

A schoolboy indeed

The strange thing is I can't remember his fights just that he was young .........

Jeff Harding had a chin and absolutely fvck-all else to befit him for fighting at world level.

Can remember van horns nightmare against Barkley and that he twice lost to Rossi but sod all else, pretty sure he was a 2 division champ.

fenech also worth a mention

Counter-puncher wrote:Jeff Harding had a chin and absolutely fvck-all else to befit him for fighting at world level.

I guess you have to have to have Dennis andries as well tough as hell

doug de wit didn't have much ability,just a rugged hardness,same as juan roldan,though I think he was better than the caveman approach that came across and im`e surprised no one has mentioned mickey ward

Jeff[flash]Malcolm rates a mention did it in front of thousand's and in one horse town's
Sam[King]Soloman just did it again the other day..............and got robbed again in his opponent's back yard.....i'v lost count how many time's now.

Interesting topic.
Thought of some middleweights that seemed to be better than the sum of all of their parts:

Mustafa Hamsho
Gene Fullmer
Vito Antuofermo

Hamsho did have a bit of talent, but you would not think he would been perhaps the 2nd best middleweight in the world at one point.

Fullmer and Antuofermo were tough as nails and just kept throwing punches.

Thanks, I think Soliman is a very good call, DeWitt too

your guys are a little before my time Alp, what i have seen of Vito was at the end of his career and i don't think that butcher's job Minter did on him would necessarily be representative.

Counter-puncher wrote:skills, yes, 'godgiven talents' such as speed, power, natural size, no

would you say Winky was obviously laden with godgiven talent?

or did he 'overachieve', by developing technique/skill to compensate for the fact he didn't punch like Tito or move like Pernell, as per my OP?

I consider skills to be pretty tangible because by your criteria, Hopkins would fit the bill of someone who doesn't have many God given talents of power and speed but his skill seems very tangible to me.

Datsue wrote:Running gags aside, the diptych of Paulie Ayala & Clarence "Bones" Adams spring to mind.

& a current one (& I'm gonna get some grief for this):

Abner Mares.

I actually agree with that one. But more so two years ago when he was beating all of the toughest opposition. Right now, he seemed to settle into the level he should be on.

Counter-puncher wrote:Tell all those guys gatti flattened with one left hook that he didn't have at least one god-given TANGIBLE talent. The other ones you mention are intangibles, which indeed gatti mostly traded on, other than the fact he hit twice as hard as the blokes he was knocking out.

gatti was not possessed of a "god given" punching power - yeah, he could hit, but you must have the wrong guy

Troy Dorsey worth a mention as well? Just a very tough, aggressive lad with a huge motor that allowed him to throw countless punches and always be on the move but not the big skills and moves other champs had.

Another South African, Philip 'Doc' Holiday kind of falls into the same category. He was not as technically polished as his countryman Mitchell but was a good champion for a while. Just a very tough, disciplined kid with a huge engine and all-round ruggedness. I can recall a few of his fights and his workrate and desire was top notch..but if I recall correctly he did not have a great deal else.

Juan roldan just plain tough

misterpunch wrote:

Counter-puncher wrote:Tell all those guys gatti flattened with one left hook that he didn't have at least one god-given TANGIBLE talent. The other ones you mention are intangibles, which indeed gatti mostly traded on, other than the fact he hit twice as hard as the blokes he was knocking out.

gatti was not possessed of a "god given" punching power - yeah, he could hit, but you must have the wrong guy

Well, lets take the Ruelas knockout. Let's say another 130lber, let's say John John Molina, if he hit Ruelas with his best left hook, I'm not sure it would do much more than briefly wobble Ruelas' legs, he never even dreamed of flattening a decent fighter like Gatti often did.

mercman wrote:

misterpunch wrote:wayne mcculloch

johnny tapia

joe bugner

injin chi

Can't agree on the Joe Bugner front. To me, he's the classic example of somebody who had all the tools - big, durable, athletic, fast hands, good skill, etc. - but very rarely got it done. Really, he seems the antithesis of what the thread's about.

Joe Bugner had a good chin in addition to possessing ability and good boxing skills. But he wasn't that good of a puncher and lacked desire. At the time Bugner was active, there was a feeling that he needed a heart transplant. I wouldn't go that far, but Bugner wasn't close to being in the class of Muhammad Ali, Joe Frazier or Evander Holyfield when it came to desire.

- Chuck Johnston

Counter-puncher wrote:Jeff Harding had a chin and absolutely fvck-all else to befit him for fighting at world level.

I was thinking his old foe Dennis Andries would fit the bill?

Dave McCauley
Steve Collins
Scott Harrison
Ricky Burns
Sven Ottke

Bodyshot3 wrote:Troy Dorsey worth a mention as well? Just a very tough, aggressive lad with a huge motor that allowed him to throw countless punches and always be on the move but not the big skills and moves other champs had.

Another South African, Philip 'Doc' Holiday kind of falls into the same category. He was not as technically polished as his countryman Mitchell but was a good champion for a while. Just a very tough, disciplined kid with a huge engine and all-round ruggedness. I can recall a few of his fights and his workrate and desire was top notch..but if I recall correctly he did not have a great deal else.

Good shouts, mate.

Jeff Harding had a chin and absolutely fvck-all else to befit him for fighting at world level.

I loved Harding and especially the Andries triology so I am going to play a bit of devil's advocate here!

That chin was (almost) bombproof but I thought that he was a guy who hit properly hard, not explosive one shot finishers with fantastic timing or movement to find the opening, but plenty of good, sickening weight on them. If he hit you then you must have known about it.

His best win (for me) was stopping Tiozzo in Marseille and of course he swapped bombs with Tom Collins and came out on top in that one as well. And he could change up and down as well; the third fight with Dennis the Menace saw Harding box for a few rounds rather than rumble.

You could also argue that Harding's physical preparation and fitness was an elite tool in it's own right but fully appreciate that it was not what the OP was talking about.

It might sound harsh for someone who was actually a very tidy and controlled boxer, but does Terry Marsh count as well? Always struck me as being a good all-rounder without truly excelling at one or two particular attributes. Terry had to work fairly hard and do a shift to beat some of his domestic opponents before finding his feet as a European champion.

Marsh another good shout yes mate

Counter-puncher wrote:Thanks, I think Soliman is a very good call, DeWitt too

your guys are a little before my time Alp, what i have seen of Vito was at the end of his career and i don't think that butcher's job Minter did on him would necessarily be representative.

You are making me feel old.
Fullmer was before my time. However, many of his fights are available on Youtube and other places.
Saw Hamsho and Antuofermo several times. Win, lose or draw, they gave a great effort.