BoxRec

AJ has to be thrown in at the deep end. He has Whyte next which I am not really that bothered about, but he is better than Cornish who wasn't a step up.

First fight in 2016 needs to be against a top 10 heavy, and then get him in for a World title fight. I don't want to see him fight Chisora, Price, or another loser British heavyweight, I want to see him challenging and beating the best out there.

asdfjkl wrote:

Tony1244 wrote: I would also pick Joshua against Wilder. Not because I think Wilder is overrated, but because I think Joshua may be the best HW prospect I've ever seen. But Wilder has fought a few more top guys than Joshua, as well he should have. He's been in the pro ranks about 4 years longer. Joshua is way ahead of Wilder at a similar point though

If Joshua, Parker, Wilder, Wlad, Browne, and the Furys mix it up between themselves in the next few years, I don't see how anyone is negative on the Heavyweight division.

The heavyweight division became less interesting in America because they simply didn't have any serious top boxers in that division any more.
And neither boxers with an amazing story, except for Wilder, but let's get real, his numbers are shocking, but so are his opponends.

Also note that Joshua already fought 5 contenders out of the top 100, while Wilder only had 3 yet.
Those 5 fought another 15 ish opponends out of the top 100, while those 3 fought like 5 other top 100 opponends and none of those 5 have been won against Europeans. In other words, Wilder did not fight a few more top guys as Joshua did at all.
Also note that Joshua only started as a pro back in 2013, but simply fights like 5 or 6 matches a year!
Out of all the professional boxers, only Parker can keep up with that rate.

I'm an American so of course I'd like to see more good American boxers especially @ Heavyweight. But I'm not KBB about it.The thing that bothers me most about it is it's difficult for me to see the fights live. I'd rather have watched Joshua-Cornish and Whyte-Minto live than the rubbish they had on TV this weekend in the US.

What's more important to me is the next great HW or HWs have an interesting style in and out of the ring, and the Furys, Wilder, Parker, and Joshua all seem to have at least some potential personality wise and with their ability.

Tony1244 wrote:

asdfjkl wrote:

Tony1244 wrote: I would also pick Joshua against Wilder. Not because I think Wilder is overrated, but because I think Joshua may be the best HW prospect I've ever seen. But Wilder has fought a few more top guys than Joshua, as well he should have. He's been in the pro ranks about 4 years longer. Joshua is way ahead of Wilder at a similar point though

If Joshua, Parker, Wilder, Wlad, Browne, and the Furys mix it up between themselves in the next few years, I don't see how anyone is negative on the Heavyweight division.

The heavyweight division became less interesting in America because they simply didn't have any serious top boxers in that division any more.
And neither boxers with an amazing story, except for Wilder, but let's get real, his numbers are shocking, but so are his opponends.

Also note that Joshua already fought 5 contenders out of the top 100, while Wilder only had 3 yet.
Those 5 fought another 15 ish opponends out of the top 100, while those 3 fought like 5 other top 100 opponends and none of those 5 have been won against Europeans. In other words, Wilder did not fight a few more top guys as Joshua did at all.
Also note that Joshua only started as a pro back in 2013, but simply fights like 5 or 6 matches a year!
Out of all the professional boxers, only Parker can keep up with that rate.

I'm an American so of course I'd like to see more good American boxers especially @ Heavyweight. But I'm not KBB about it.The thing that bothers me most about it is it's difficult for me to see the fights live. I'd rather have watched Joshua-Cornish and Whyte-Minto live than the rubbish they had on TV this weekend in the US.

What's more important to me is the next great HW or HWs have an interesting style in and out of the ring, and the Furys, Wilder, Parker, and Joshua all seem to have at least some potential personality wise and with their ability.

There are sites out there like "http://sportlivetv.sx/en/" they broadcast pretty much everything when it comes to sports, including channels you should normally pay for and stuff like that. Sometimes their channels have lag, but most of the time you can simply see everything you want if you have a fast internetconnection.

I think there's a lot of substance in the comparison between Wilder and Joshua. They had very comparative records at the same time of their careers (Wilder also had 14 KO's inside 5 rounds in his first 14 fights). But if you look at how they shape up in their fights, Wilder does indeed have the power and the height, but he is so uncoordinated. Arms and legs everywhere. He doesn't shape up very well against average opposition and his defence does on occasion go AWOL.

Both Wilder and Joshua both fought the awkward Gavern within 6 months of each other quite recently (Wilder won in 4, and Joshua 3), but look at the styles, and how they went about the fight. If you didn't know anything about either fighter, you wouldn't know who has 14 fights under their belt and who has 34. Joshua has better balance, moves better, looks like he has quicker and busier hands.

This is not me saying Joshua has the experience of a seasoned fighter, and will still make mistakes, but he clearly is doing the right things in the gym and looks the total fighter. Make your own mind up;-

Wilder v Gavern: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOKpbuHZN2E

Joshua v Gavern: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMVpz18CWx4

I don't know anyone who has sat down and watched Anthony Joshua fights and come away with a serious take other than, "Well, he looks unstoppable, but..." The core issue is that there may not be very many fighters physically careful of making the "but..." a problem if it even is one. If he has even an average Rahman/Witherspoon type of chin, he might not lose for 8-9-10 years with the kind of talent at heavyweight presently.

zorndeslammes wrote:I don't know anyone who has sat down and watched Anthony Joshua fights and come away with a serious take other than, "Well, he looks unstoppable, but..." The core issue is that there may not be very many fighters physically careful of making the "but..." a problem if it even is one. If he has even an average Rahman/Witherspoon type of chin, he might not lose for 8-9-10 years with the kind of talent at heavyweight presently.

Actually the Dutch are ready to take over, but they just don't seem to realise or care about it at all.

Take a look at this guy:


He looks like just another muscled guy, but in fact he's 7ft2!
He has never been in a boxing ring in his entire life at all.
Even if he was a completely unskilled idiot, I still bet Joshua would have had some trouble with him.


Or this guy:
http://boxrec.com/boxer/713216
Only fought two fights out of boredom in the kickboxing league, purely for the money.

Tyrone Spong was/is too small to reach the loftiest heights in post-K1 era heavyweight kickboxing. I doubt seriously he'll be any thing more than a fringe contender.

asdfjkl wrote:

zorndeslammes wrote:I don't know anyone who has sat down and watched Anthony Joshua fights and come away with a serious take other than, "Well, he looks unstoppable, but..." The core issue is that there may not be very many fighters physically careful of making the "but..." a problem if it even is one. If he has even an average Rahman/Witherspoon type of chin, he might not lose for 8-9-10 years with the kind of talent at heavyweight presently.

Actually the Dutch are ready to take over, but they just don't seem to realise or care about it at all.

Take a look at this guy:


He looks like just another muscled guy, but in fact he's 7ft2!
He has never been in a boxing ring in his entire life at all.
Even if he was a completely unskilled idiot, I still bet Joshua would have had some trouble with him.


Or this guy:
http://boxrec.com/boxer/713216
Only fought two fights out of boredom in the kickboxing league, purely for the money.

You really don't know ANYTHING about boxing do you?

Why is some big musclebound bodybuilder going to give Joshua any trouble. He'd absolutely chin him. What the frigging hell are you blathering on about?

The dutch are ready to take over based on what exactly - the fact they are tall? Jesus H Christ.

jamesmcdonnell wrote: You really don't know ANYTHING about boxing do you?

Why is some big musclebound bodybuilder going to give Joshua any trouble. He'd absolutely chin him. What the frigging hell are you blathering on about?

The dutch are ready to take over based on what exactly - the fact they are tall? Jesus H Christ.

They already dominate the kickboxing league for about 25 years now...

asdfjkl wrote:

zorndeslammes wrote:I don't know anyone who has sat down and watched Anthony Joshua fights and come away with a serious take other than, "Well, he looks unstoppable, but..." The core issue is that there may not be very many fighters physically careful of making the "but..." a problem if it even is one. If he has even an average Rahman/Witherspoon type of chin, he might not lose for 8-9-10 years with the kind of talent at heavyweight presently.

Actually the Dutch are ready to take over, but they just don't seem to realise or care about it at all.

Take a look at this guy:


He looks like just another muscled guy, but in fact he's 7ft2!
He has never been in a boxing ring in his entire life at all.
Even if he was a completely unskilled idiot, I still bet Joshua would have had some trouble with him.


Or this guy:
http://boxrec.com/boxer/713216
Only fought two fights out of boredom in the kickboxing league, purely for the money.

I'd fancy my chances against the guy in the photo and I have not even so much as sparred for 4/5 years. This is of course assuming he is an uncoordinated idiot who has never boxed before and his "combat career" so far consists of just lifting weights!

Just to confirm though, you are on the wind up? If not, what on earth suggests this bloke could last any longer than 10 seconds against a genuine heavyweight talent like Joshua?

asdfjkl wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote: You really don't know ANYTHING about boxing do you?

Why is some big musclebound bodybuilder going to give Joshua any trouble. He'd absolutely chin him. What the frigging hell are you blathering on about?

The dutch are ready to take over based on what exactly - the fact they are tall? Jesus H Christ.

They already dominate the kickboxing league for about 25 years now...

That is NOT boxing. Where are all the major dutch talents in boxing?

lillywhite14 wrote: I'd fancy my chances against the guy in the photo and I have not even so much as sparred for 4/5 years. This is of course assuming he is an uncoordinated idiot who has never boxed before and his "combat career" so far consists of just lifting weights!

Just to confirm though, you are on the wind up? If not, what on earth suggests this bloke could last any longer than 10 seconds against a genuine heavyweight talent like Joshua?

He was once thinking about becoming a MMA fighter a long time ago, here's a picture of him with Bob Sapp many years ago:



But then he had a serious problem with his knee so it would be pretty much pointless to do because any kick on it would put him on the ground.

If you don't know Bob Sapp:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yfcpas2gzlU

Bob Sapp is not a good fighter, but he is very impressive to see, or at least was very impressive to see.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

asdfjkl wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote: You really don't know ANYTHING about boxing do you?

Why is some big musclebound bodybuilder going to give Joshua any trouble. He'd absolutely chin him. What the frigging hell are you blathering on about?

The dutch are ready to take over based on what exactly - the fact they are tall? Jesus H Christ.

They already dominate the kickboxing league for about 25 years now...

That is NOT boxing. Where are all the major dutch talents in boxing?

That's the whole thing, it's not like they can't do it, but simply nobody in Holland does it.

I know a woman who did it after her kickboxing carreer, called Lucia Rijker, I know that because I've met her IRL, but the Dutch just don't seem to care.

Also, I'll assure you you will have trouble to chin him, even if he barely does a thing, I can't even touch his hair and I'm 6ft.

I'm aware of Lucia Rijker.

However, it is hard to understand what on earth you are getting at - the best I can make of it, is that if they could be arsed, they would the dominant force in world boxing.

Well, as my old ma used to say "If you had a square arse, you'd shite bricks."

There's some solid dutch kickboxers, but that has a lot to do with geography and colonial history and less to do with their aptitude to taking over the world of combat sports. Kickboxing outside of Thailand doesn't even matter and hasn't mattered for a few years now, realistically speaking.

asdfjkl wrote:

lillywhite14 wrote: I'd fancy my chances against the guy in the photo and I have not even so much as sparred for 4/5 years. This is of course assuming he is an uncoordinated idiot who has never boxed before and his "combat career" so far consists of just lifting weights!

Just to confirm though, you are on the wind up? If not, what on earth suggests this bloke could last any longer than 10 seconds against a genuine heavyweight talent like Joshua?

He was once thinking about becoming a MMA fighter a long time ago, here's a picture of him with Bob Sapp many years ago:



But then he had a serious problem with his knee so it would be pretty much pointless to do because any kick on it would put him on the ground.

If you don't know Bob Sapp:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yfcpas2gzlU

Bob Sapp is not a good fighter, but he is very impressive to see, or at least was very impressive to see.

I was thinking of Shagging Naomi Campbell some years ago, then I realised that given the fact I wasn't a billionnaire, and didn't have a huge ocean going Yacht, I would leave it.

There's rather more to being a fighter than being big. Bob Sapp proves that.

asdfjkl wrote:

zorndeslammes wrote:I don't know anyone who has sat down and watched Anthony Joshua fights and come away with a serious take other than, "Well, he looks unstoppable, but..." The core issue is that there may not be very many fighters physically careful of making the "but..." a problem if it even is one. If he has even an average Rahman/Witherspoon type of chin, he might not lose for 8-9-10 years with the kind of talent at heavyweight presently.

Actually the Dutch are ready to take over, but they just don't seem to realise or care about it at all.

Take a look at this guy:


He looks like just another muscled guy, but in fact he's 7ft2!
He has never been in a boxing ring in his entire life at all.
Even if he was a completely unskilled idiot, I still bet Joshua would have had some trouble with him.


Or this guy:
http://boxrec.com/boxer/713216
Only fought two fights out of boredom in the kickboxing league, purely for the money.

The fact you think Joshua would have trouble with this guy because of size tells us all you are very new to boxing. That's not an insult; Bob Arum who has a Harvard Law degree thought Wilt Chamberlin would give Ali trouble because of size. He realized shortly after that he didn't understand boxing then.

But... Do you guys consider Nikolay Valuev for example then really that skillfull?
Or a bumfighter or ??

As far as I know he only started losing when he was in fulltime pain.

I won't say length is everything, but it sure works in your advantage.

asdfjkl wrote:But... Do you guys consider Nikolay Valuev for example then really that skillfull?
Or a bumfighter or ??

As far as I know he only started losing when he was in fulltime pain.

I won't say length is everything, but it sure works in your advantage.

He had a good record but was never a great heavyweight. He may have had some similarities to Primo Carnera or Bonecrusher Smith. All tough guys, but not the top of all time, that's for sure. I doubt I'll get too much disagreement here.

I think it is smart to bring guys like Joshua along slowly. He is a great prospect and soon will be a top contender. With only 15 fights and not many rounds, he needs to be allowed to develop. Fans are too impatient. He may beat a top 5 or 10 guy now, but he has plenty of time to get there.

Tony1244 wrote:

asdfjkl wrote:But... Do you guys consider Nikolay Valuev for example then really that skillfull?
Or a bumfighter or ??

As far as I know he only started losing when he was in fulltime pain.

I won't say length is everything, but it sure works in your advantage.

He had a good record but was never a great heavyweight. He may have had some similarities to Primo Carnera or Bonecrusher Smith. All tough guys, but not the top of all time, that's for sure. I doubt I'll get too much disagreement here.

Neither of them is even as tall as Anthony Joshua is, they aren't shorties, but they sure aren't that tall either.

asdfjkl wrote:

Tony1244 wrote:

asdfjkl wrote:But... Do you guys consider Nikolay Valuev for example then really that skillfull?
Or a bumfighter or ??

As far as I know he only started losing when he was in fulltime pain.

I won't say length is everything, but it sure works in your advantage.

He had a good record but was never a great heavyweight. He may have had some similarities to Primo Carnera or Bonecrusher Smith. All tough guys, but not the top of all time, that's for sure. I doubt I'll get too much disagreement here.

Neither of them is even as tall as Anthony Joshua is, they aren't shorties, but they sure aren't that tall either.

Height really isn't that important in boxing. Being tall can be an advantage if you know how to use it. So can being short. Weight is more important, particularly when it's natural weight, not bloated body builder muscles or excess fat. Historically speaking, Primo Carnera was huge, almost as big for his day as Valuev was in his day. His size allowed him to briefly win the title and be competitive with smaller men who were far more skilled. Bonecrusher Smith was a big heavyweight too, though not in the league of Carnera.

asdfjkl wrote:

Tony1244 wrote:

asdfjkl wrote:But... Do you guys consider Nikolay Valuev for example then really that skillfull?
Or a bumfighter or ??

As far as I know he only started losing when he was in fulltime pain.

I won't say length is everything, but it sure works in your advantage.

He had a good record but was never a great heavyweight. He may have had some similarities to Primo Carnera or Bonecrusher Smith. All tough guys, but not the top of all time, that's for sure. I doubt I'll get too much disagreement here.

Neither of them is even as tall as Anthony Joshua is, they aren't shorties, but they sure aren't that tall either.

Carnera was a natural bigger man than Joshua, he was just under 6' 6 (Joshua's height) , and consistently weighed well in excess of 260 lbs, and tht was natural rather than manufactured weight, yet was beaten by men far smaller than himself on many occasions.

Size is not always an advantage.

asdfjkl wrote:But... Do you guys consider Nikolay Valuev for example then really that skillfull?
Or a bumfighter or ??

As far as I know he only started losing when he was in fulltime pain.

I won't say length is everything, but it sure works in your advantage.

Valuev barely scraped a decision against a 47 year old Holyfield - in fact most observers thought he lost. I think that says everything we need to know about Valuev. He was very mediocre. For all this size, he couldn't punch hard either.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

asdfjkl wrote:But... Do you guys consider Nikolay Valuev for example then really that skillfull?
Or a bumfighter or ??

As far as I know he only started losing when he was in fulltime pain.

I won't say length is everything, but it sure works in your advantage.

Valuev barely scraped a decision against a 47 year old Holyfield - in fact most observers thought he lost. I think that says everything we need to know about Valuev. He was very mediocre. For all this size, he couldn't punch hard either.

Also, fixating on being unbeaten is erroneous, it's easy to remain unbeaten, like Mansour did, when you faced terrible opponents.