Marciano Frazier wrote:
Two things. Qawi was a lot harder to hit than Marciano. Marciano was a much busier fighter and Holyfield was pushed to the wall stamina wise by Qawi in that early fght. And boy could Marciano punch. So it would be a different fight. But why should Holyfield have to fight a Marciano in his tenth pro fight when Marciano got to fight a Bob Jefferson? Marciano would have knocked Holyfield out.
Wait another ten fights. Marciano fought a guy named Tommy Giorgio, weighed in at 184, had a record of 10-9. Better than Bob Jefferson. Giorgino went on to post a 10-16 career record, ten of those losses by knockout. Not as pathetic as Bob Jefferson but nothing to brag about. Holyfield actually got Qawi in his 12th pro fight but in his 20th pro fight he fought Pinklon Thomas. Thomas quit on his tool after the seventh round. No comparison.
The two fighters who knocked Marciano down, Walcott and Moore, were both pushing forty, their best years well behind them. They could still fight, but they are not the same test as the Lewis Bowe or Tyson whom Holyfield faced.
I am not saying Marciano was a stiff and couldn't fight or a "racist delusion" as some other poster accused me of implying. I am just saying we have to be frank and objective when assessing his abilities and accomplishments. I loved the guy, he was my old man's hero. But I won't romanticize him as a prizefighter.
"Two things. Qawi was a lot harder to hit than Marciano. Marciano was a much busier fighter and Holyfield was pushed to the wall stamina wise by Qawi in that early fght. And boy could Marciano punch. So it would be a different fight. But why should Holyfield have to fight a Marciano in his tenth pro fight when Marciano got to fight a Bob Jefferson? Marciano would have knocked Holyfield out.
Wait another ten fights. Marciano fought a guy named Tommy Giorgio, weighed in at 184, had a record of 10-9. Better than Bob Jefferson. Giorgino went on to post a 10-16 career record, ten of those losses by knockout. Not as pathetic as Bob Jefferson but nothing to brag about. Holyfield actually got Qawi in his 12th pro fight but in his 20th pro fight he fought Pinklon Thomas. Thomas quit on his tool after the seventh round. No comparison. "
You see, this concept that Marciano was some babied fighter with a puffed-up record who just looks good because his promoter brought him along just right IS NOT TRUE.
Of COURSE Holyfield would have been moved along much more quickly in his career. Holyfield was fighting since he was a little kid, had a HUGE amateur career, and should have been an Olympic gold medalist.
Marciano, on the other hand, didn't even get started in the first training for amateur boxing when he was already in his twenties. He had a total of 12 amateur fights, going 8-4 as an amateur. And you're acting like he somehow had it soft while Holyfield had it much tougher? Marciano was literally like an inexperienced amateur fighter facing pros(albeit highly mediocre ones) early in his career.
And if you notice, while Marciano was given some very easy opponents in about his 6th-20th fights, in just his fourth and fifth pro fights he was put in with two far more experienced, undefeated fighters in a row, expected to lose by the very guy who set up the fights, Sam Silverman. Marciano was first put in with 8-0 Bobby Quinn, who he took out in three, and then in his very next fight, Marciano faced Eddie Ross, who was
26-0(23 KO's), expected to be cannonfodder, a set-up easy win for Ross, and Marciano knocked Ross out in 63 seconds of round one.
It is just completely unfair to think that somehow Marciano was an inflated record, a babied fighter, based on the fact that he fought a lot of mediocre opponents to build experience and work on his boxing. He had to be moved along slowly, as any prospect with only 12 amateur fights should be. It's a miracle that a Marciano who had just turned pro and had had no professional training whatsoever actually managed to make it through those early fights undefeated when he was twice in a row fed to prospects as an easy win and twice in a row blew them out.
"The two fighters who knocked Marciano down, Walcott and Moore, were both pushing forty, their best years well behind them. They could still fight, but they are not the same test as the Lewis Bowe or Tyson whom Holyfield faced."
"their best years well behind them."
This is just not true. First, let's look at Walcott. When
were his best years, in your opinion? Was it when he was a young up-and-comer with no amateur experience who was dirt poor and living largely on welfare while taking dives to get money for food and being knocked out by guys like Tiger Jack Fox and Abe Simon? Or was it around when he turned thirty, when he was taking whole years off and coming in and out of retirement while searching for a method to support his wife and six children?
The only time that can reasonably be suggested as being the beginning of Walcott's prime is around 1947 at the earliest, which was after he'd finally gotten a manager and taken some fights to shake off the ring rust. At that time, he came out of essential obscurity to split two fights with Joe Louis(forget the judges in the first one). That's about when Walcott reached his prime- at the age of 33 or 34.
So when do you think he became past it? How can you reasonably say his best years were well behind him when he faced Marciano? He had just won the title with a stunning knockout of a great fighter in his prime and had then beaten that fighter again in their fourth meeting. Possibly excluding the first Joe Louis fight(which is debatable because Louis was past his peak when he fought Walcott), those were the two biggest wins of Walcott's career, RIGHT BEFORE HE FOUGHT MARCIANO.
Now, in what way do you think Walcott had declined when he fought Marciano? Was he slowed and lacking of his former reflexes?
Walcott was fast as lightning and counter punching beautifully in that match. Was he fat and overweight, having put on the pounds that come with the passing of your prime?
Again, that's ridiculous. Walcott was hard as nails and ripped, with a very heavily muscled upper body. Was his stamina declining? Again, no way. Walcott fought hard the whole way for 12 rounds and was still looking relatively fresh and moving around the ring very well even at the time of the knockout.
Now, with Archie Moore, that's not even debatable. Moore was light heavyweight champion for four more years after facing Marciano, with multiple wins over heavyweight contenders. He hadn't lost in literally dozens of fights, and went on to go a dozen more afterward without another loss. Many of Moore's most memorable fights were still ahead of him, and he was always recognized as "The Ageless Warrior" or a variation, as some called him.
In other words, while, say, Joe Louis, for instance, was fat, slow, and lacking of stamina for his fight with Marciano, clearly long past his best, Walcott and Moore were like Hopkins and Lewis. They aged gracefully and improved as they got older.
