BoxRec

Ambling Alp II wrote:He never fought Frazier, so we can't count that against Norton since it never happened.
No he couldn't muster a win against Holmes. He lost a close decision in a great fight. He gave Larry Holmes hell. He really was the only one to do that against a prime Holmes.
How many guys in the history of the sport do you really think would have done better? Four or five?

He was probably past it against Shavers. Cooney? Come on.
Young? Well I scored it for Young too, but it was close. And it was a great fight. If you are trying to prove that Norton was not that good, that isn't a fight a fight to show someone.

How about the Bobick fight? That was a big fight at the time and now people completely dismiss it.

elmersalsa wrote:

Caractacus wrote:Jerry Quarry had said he was drunk when he got the call to fight Ken Norton.
Alos he had about 3 weeks notice(or less),that is true,
but he had to arrange or get some to prepare the fight camp
and travele,make personal appearences etc.

Ken Norton beat him. That's the end of it. He was 3 years older than Jerry Quarry.

Norton did a number on Ali 3 Times. The only man in history that the Greatest couldn't beat.

BoxBuzz wrote:

Ambling Alp II wrote:He never fought Frazier, so we can't count that against Norton since it never happened.
No he couldn't muster a win against Holmes. He lost a close decision in a great fight. He gave Larry Holmes hell. He really was the only one to do that against a prime Holmes.
How many guys in the history of the sport do you really think would have done better? Four or five?

He was probably past it against Shavers. Cooney? Come on.
Young? Well I scored it for Young too, but it was close. And it was a great fight. If you are trying to prove that Norton was not that good, that isn't a fight a fight to show someone.

How about the Bobick fight? That was a big fight at the time and now people completely dismiss it.

Well Alp, In hindsight, I think it's quite right to dismiss the Bobick fight. Though yes, it was hyped and for some "full of suspense".

I'm not sayin' he's not good. I'm just attempting to temper the enthusiasm. His main claim to fame is that he gave the best a very good run....but did not really test himself against the "rest of the best" and when he did he came up short. Not fighting Frazier is a big deal.....and there are a few others he sidestepped...he was rather well managed, with the Ali matchings as the goal.

lorenzo1791 wrote:

dempseyfire wrote: Garcia, Kirkman, O'Halloran, Lovell

Wow.

BoxBuzz wrote:

elmersalsa wrote:

Caractacus wrote:Jerry Quarry had said he was drunk when he got the call to fight Ken Norton.
Alos he had about 3 weeks notice(or less),that is true,
but he had to arrange or get some to prepare the fight camp
and travele,make personal appearences etc.

Ken Norton beat him. That's the end of it. He was 3 years older than Jerry Quarry.

Norton did a number on Ali 3 Times. The only man in history that the Greatest couldn't beat.

Ok I just checked the record....and it says there that Ali won 2 out of three. Don't try to pull a fast one.....we got fact checkers here.


Anyway...the Norton and Quarry fight was not quite on a level playing field no matter how you stack it up. For reasons that most reasonable people who know the game would concede worth at least considering. Most of which have been mentioned.

BoxBuzz wrote:Just cuz you say so? Now hold on a minute El Sriracha

You do recognize that many people who are good evaluators are mixed on these fights, correct?

Joe Frazier says Kenny won the third fight by 1 round. When your bestest buddy gives it to you by one....it's got to be close. The judges to this day feel they scored this fight accurately based on their view, and ability to evaluate. Not on some bunch of bias nonsense either way. The second fight was clearly won by Ali....and yep that's an opinion.

I think Norton may have won his fight with Holmes....what say you on that? I think Tua beat Ibeabuchi. But I don't believe in BigFoot or the Loch Ness Monster.

But just like Trinidad/DelLahoya and Mosley DLH II....there are lots of opinions that run counter to the outcome. Part of the game.

elmersalsa wrote:The great Muhammad Ali in no circumstances won the second fight with Ken Norton. True sporstsmanship does not count in that level of competition. Too many $$$ are involved.

The third fight? worse! I imagine Norton's son watching his OWN daddy got the RAW DEAL. Unfair, but, that's what it is.

Ambling Alp II wrote:Would you mind pointing some of those times?

Cojimar 1946 wrote:I think Norton's ranking may suffer from an inability to handle punchers. People can point to the Ali and Holmes fights as examples of his ability but on the other side there are the quick kayo losses to Foreman and Shavers. The Shavers fight is only a year removed from the fight with Holmes? Was he really far past it at this stage?

elmersalsa wrote:Anybody that believes that the great Muhammad Ali won the last two fights with Ken Norton gotta be delusional, blind or Ali-biased.

It's clear that Norton won all those 3 fights. He was not the cash cow, so, he understood that to the tee. Norton wasn't dumb, nor blind nor stupid to see this. He brushed it off like it ain't no thang. He knew the deal. That's makes him more likeable and more of a man given credit for. He never cried or bitch to the situation. Because he knew the bu$ine$$ of boxing. Especially, at that level of competition. There is no true sportsmanship at that level, but, CORRUPTION AND GREED. Norton was a SMART MAN.

He is THE ONLY MAN to beat Ali 3 times!

Flump wrote:I'm a big fan of Norton but he is clearly not an ATG, his body of wins is simply not enough to elevate him to that status. If he could have added Frazier or Holmes to his w column then definitely but as it was I would call him the best non ATG of the 70's division.

davie wrote:Always quoted as being a pivotal part of the greatest ever era of heavyweight boxing, Ali, Foreman, Frazier, Norton and latter Holmes are the 5 kings of the 70s heavyweight scene. "Champions forever" as the DVD states

But does he belong in that company?

Obviously he was among those great fighters and gave Ali 3 tough fights, but lets look a little further into it

Boxrec has him 32nd well behind the lowest ranked of that era (Ali 1, Holmes 10, Frazier 15, Foreman 21)
He never actually won a world title,
he lost twice to Ali and the one he won Ali suffered a broken jaw (admittedly Norton was the one that broke it with a punch),
he was hammered by Foreman,
never faced Frazier
and was beaten by Holmes.

What were his standout wins other than that Ali fight?
Was it just a case that his style was a difficult one for Ali to overcome (as JMM is for Pacquiao) or was he really that close to Ali's level?

I've watched the big fights and there's no doubt he was a good fighter,
I haven't watched through many of his fights against 'lesser' fighters, perhaps that would shine a light on the matter

I've read a lot of criticism of Foreman and Holmes on here of late. but was this guy deserving of being named among these elite guys or just fortunate to have been around in a stacked era.

You talk about the fabulous 4, Hearns, Hagler, Duran and Leonard. Each has their merits, many will argue the case for each man being the best, but they all merit almost equal billing in that magnificent era. Does Norton fit so well with those other top heavyweights?

elmersalsa wrote:Ken Norton is THE ONLY MAN, THAT BEAT THE GREATEST 3 TIMES!

He just got DICKED 2 out 3 by the judge$$$!

Kalan wrote:

elmersalsa wrote:Ken Norton is THE ONLY MAN, THAT BEAT THE GREATEST 3 TIMES!

He just got DICKED 2 out 3 by the judge$$$!

Absolutely!!! ... Norton won all 3 Ali fights.. I had him losing the Young fight close.. Holmes beat Norton by a much wider margin than the scorecards. Holmes won the first 5 rounds.. But Holmes was forced to brawl when his left biceps unraveled and he couldn't retract the jab properly.. He could jab fine, he just couldn't retract the punch well, leaving his chin hanging out.. so Larry was forced to mix and brawl, which made it a great fight.

Norton was a good, but not a great Heavyweight. His cross-armed defense made him susceptible to big punchers -- and Kenny fought more of them than Frazier did.. Shavers, Garcia, and Cooney also knocked him out... and quickly... He did extremely well with light hitting boxers like Young and Ali.

Nile4000 wrote:Ken is a definite top 30 guy, could see him beating Lewis, Bowe, possibly Tate and Coetzee.