TOP 10 middleweights of all time

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 26 May 2018, 00:20

Grebs record is good, even spectacular but he's a bit of a ghost.....all we see is his shadow.....and his shadow is very intimidating....but I'd place him at around 4 or 5. It's intriguing to place him at the top, it adds a mystique to the list. It's got "panache" but this one person's opinion....(.and my opinion is both mighty, and grand.).....is that there is simply not enough information to do anything but imagine that he belongs any higher than 4. He's almost mythological.....

It requires a lot of "faith" to place him at the top.

So count me as a doubter in terms of placing him on the top of this list.

Perhaps...in an "honorary" way it works. Like those degrees that are given to very well known people for what they have done. I'd just like the luxury of having some sort of visual record of the guy.

The idea that he would fare toward the top of a round robin that includes the likes of Monzon, Hagler and Robinson is a very romantic notion. Specifically because he is literally THE UNSEEN........So it's intriguing, it's not impossible, but it's not altogether sound logic.

DrDuke · Post by **DrDuke** » 26 May 2018, 05:14

BoxBuzz wrote: ↑26 May 2018, 00:20 Grebs record is good, even spectacular but he's a bit of a ghost.....all we see is his shadow.....and his shadow is very intimidating....but I'd place him at around 4 or 5. It's intriguing to place him at the top, it adds a mystique to the list. It's got "panache" but this one person's opinion....(.and my opinion is both mighty, and grand.).....is that there is simply not enough information to do anything but imagine that he belongs any higher than 4. He's almost mythological.....

It requires a lot of "faith" to place him at the top.

So count me as a doubter in terms of placing him on the top of this list.

Perhaps...in an "honorary" way it works. Like those degrees that are given to very well known people for what they have done. I'd just like the luxury of having some sort of visual record of the guy.

The idea that he would fare toward the top of a round robin that includes the likes of Monzon, Hagler and Robinson is a very romantic notion. Specifically because he is literally THE UNSEEN........So it's intriguing, it's not impossible, but it's not altogether sound logic.

I guess, Greb was real deal indeed. If he wasn't, there would have probably been some evidence of it. And I also find his rivalry vs Gene Tunney with taking a one victory there being a proof of his credibility, cause it's well-known, that Tunney was a great boxer, a highly skilled competitor.

But, of course, Greb can't be higher, than Monzon or Hagler, or Robinson. Harry could have scored all those victories, but in his era boxing skillset obviously wasn't at the level of Monzon's, Hagler's, Robinson's eras. Those three had tougher passways to the top and they were able to remain there for long. Furthermore they all have demostrated remarkable skillset being noticeably superior competitors in front of their opponent, what most likely wasn't possible for Greb acknowledging the conditions of boxing is his times.

However, the problem of this mystique stuff doesn't spread only on Greb. Tommy Ryan is a similar case. And there are many cases, when we have the video material, but not much of it. What we have with Ketchel? Some highlights of not very clean action with Billy Papke in their 4th fight and some extracts of Johnson fight, where he had demonstrated some good counteraction, but that it. However, his record with taking into consideration his age and knockout ratio tells a lot for Stanley. Also we don't have much material with the likes of Fitzsimmons and Gibbons. Even with guys like Mickey Walker and Tony Zale we don't have the desirable amount of material for the profound analysis. We can rely mostly on their resumes.

Silas1066 · Post by **Silas1066** » 26 May 2018, 11:25

I have

1. Marvin Hagler (who I rank as #1 pound-for-pound in any division)
2. Sugar Ray Robinson
3. Marcel Cerdan
4. Harry Greb
5. Carlos Monzon
6. Gennady Golovkin
7. Bernard Hopkins (his opponents were not of the quality the guys above him fought)
8. Jake Lamotta
9. Carmen Basilio (maybe the best chin ever, and probably the toughest guy to lace on gloves)
10. . Stanley Ketchel & Mickey Walker (tie)

Abradolf Lincler · Post by **Abradolf Lincler** » 27 May 2018, 13:14

Chronological order:

Bob Fitzsimmons
Mike Gibbons
Harry Greb
Mickey Walker
Freddie Steele
Jake LaMotta
Ray Robinson
Dick Tiger
Carlos Monzon
Marvin Hagler
Bernard Hopkins

I cheated. That's 11.

oogiebe · Post by **oogiebe** » 27 May 2018, 13:35

elmersalsa wrote: ↑19 Oct 2015, 23:09 King Carlos is the true king of the middleweights

oogiebe · Post by **oogiebe** » 27 May 2018, 13:36

Like a Boss wrote: ↑19 Oct 2015, 22:56 I must admit to being a sucker for these lists.

This list was pilfered from RSR Ringside Report and titled Murphy's Top Ten Middleweights:

1. Harry Greb

2. Carlos Monzon

3. Sugar Ray Robinson

4. Marvelous Marvin Hagler

5. Mike Gibbons

6. Freddie Steele

7. Tony Zale

8. Stanley Ketchel

9. Jake LaMotta

10. Bernard Hopkins

What would you have different to how Murphy has it?

I always had SRR as ATG at Welterweight. Not certain how he fares against Monzon and the like.

Abradolf Lincler · Post by **Abradolf Lincler** » 27 May 2018, 13:37

BoxBuzz wrote: ↑26 May 2018, 00:20 Grebs record is good, even spectacular but he's a bit of a ghost.....all we see is his shadow.....and his shadow is very intimidating....but I'd place him at around 4 or 5. It's intriguing to place him at the top, it adds a mystique to the list. It's got "panache" but this one person's opinion....(.and my opinion is both mighty, and grand.).....is that there is simply not enough information to do anything but imagine that he belongs any higher than 4. He's almost mythological.....

It requires a lot of "faith" to place him at the top.

So count me as a doubter in terms of placing him on the top of this list.

Perhaps...in an "honorary" way it works. Like those degrees that are given to very well known people for what they have done. I'd just like the luxury of having some sort of visual record of the guy.

The idea that he would fare toward the top of a round robin that includes the likes of Monzon, Hagler and Robinson is a very romantic notion. Specifically because he is literally THE UNSEEN........So it's intriguing, it's not impossible, but it's not altogether sound logic.

Depends on your criteria. If a mythological tournament is the basis for your rankings, it just seems far too subjective to come to anything even remotely resembling a consensus. Which is why the fighters' resume/CV or whatever you wanna call it is usually the best we all have to go on, at least when comparing fighters with whom we have a plethora of footage of vs fighters we don't.

It's why I don't really make lists or rankings anymore, honestly. I'll engage for fun here and there, but there are so many variables it ultimately seems like a fruitless endeavor to me.

What I know is that Greb has the most impressive record I've ever seen on paper. Period. There's a reason for that. And it's probably because he was the most impressive fighter ever.

oogiebe · Post by **oogiebe** » 27 May 2018, 13:40

Abradolf Lincler wrote: ↑27 May 2018, 13:37
BoxBuzz wrote: ↑26 May 2018, 00:20 Grebs record is good, even spectacular but he's a bit of a ghost.....all we see is his shadow.....and his shadow is very intimidating....but I'd place him at around 4 or 5. It's intriguing to place him at the top, it adds a mystique to the list. It's got "panache" but this one person's opinion....(.and my opinion is both mighty, and grand.).....is that there is simply not enough information to do anything but imagine that he belongs any higher than 4. He's almost mythological.....

It requires a lot of "faith" to place him at the top.

So count me as a doubter in terms of placing him on the top of this list.

Perhaps...in an "honorary" way it works. Like those degrees that are given to very well known people for what they have done. I'd just like the luxury of having some sort of visual record of the guy.

The idea that he would fare toward the top of a round robin that includes the likes of Monzon, Hagler and Robinson is a very romantic notion. Specifically because he is literally THE UNSEEN........So it's intriguing, it's not impossible, but it's not altogether sound logic.
Depends on your criteria. If a mythological tournament is the basis for your rankings, it just seems far too subjective to come to anything even remotely resembling a consensus. Which is why the fighters' resume/CV or whatever you wanna call it is usually the best we all have to go on, at least when comparing fighters with whom we have a plethora of footage of vs fighters we don't.

It's why I don't really make lists or rankings anymore, honestly. I'll engage for fun here and there, but there are so many variables it ultimately seems like a fruitless endeavor to me.

What I know is that Greb has the most impressive record I've ever seen on paper. Period. There's a reason for that. And it's probably because he was the most impressive fighter ever.

I disagree on this record being the most impressive. Greb was a great fighter and an ATG for sure, but his resume, while he fought everyone of his time, isn't the best. Monzon also fought all the best during his time (a long reign). I'd take Carlos over Harry everyday of the week and twice on the weekends.

oogiebe · Post by **oogiebe** » 27 May 2018, 13:41

No to mention Greb being the only man to defeat the great Gene Tunney.

Abradolf Lincler · Post by **Abradolf Lincler** » 27 May 2018, 16:02

oogiebe wrote: ↑27 May 2018, 13:40
Abradolf Lincler wrote: ↑27 May 2018, 13:37
BoxBuzz wrote: ↑26 May 2018, 00:20 Grebs record is good, even spectacular but he's a bit of a ghost.....all we see is his shadow.....and his shadow is very intimidating....but I'd place him at around 4 or 5. It's intriguing to place him at the top, it adds a mystique to the list. It's got "panache" but this one person's opinion....(.and my opinion is both mighty, and grand.).....is that there is simply not enough information to do anything but imagine that he belongs any higher than 4. He's almost mythological.....

It requires a lot of "faith" to place him at the top.

So count me as a doubter in terms of placing him on the top of this list.

Perhaps...in an "honorary" way it works. Like those degrees that are given to very well known people for what they have done. I'd just like the luxury of having some sort of visual record of the guy.

The idea that he would fare toward the top of a round robin that includes the likes of Monzon, Hagler and Robinson is a very romantic notion. Specifically because he is literally THE UNSEEN........So it's intriguing, it's not impossible, but it's not altogether sound logic.
Depends on your criteria. If a mythological tournament is the basis for your rankings, it just seems far too subjective to come to anything even remotely resembling a consensus. Which is why the fighters' resume/CV or whatever you wanna call it is usually the best we all have to go on, at least when comparing fighters with whom we have a plethora of footage of vs fighters we don't.

It's why I don't really make lists or rankings anymore, honestly. I'll engage for fun here and there, but there are so many variables it ultimately seems like a fruitless endeavor to me.

What I know is that Greb has the most impressive record I've ever seen on paper. Period. There's a reason for that. And it's probably because he was the most impressive fighter ever.
I disagree on this record being the most impressive. Greb was a great fighter and an ATG for sure, but his resume, while he fought everyone of his time, isn't the best. Monzon also fought all the best during his time (a long reign). I'd take Carlos over Harry everyday of the week and twice on the weekends.

Let's compare.

Greb beat: Gene Tunney, Mickey Walker, the Gibbons bros, Tommy Loughran, Tiger Flowers, Kid Norfolk, Jack Dillon, Maxie Rosenbloom, Jeff Smith, Jimmy Slattery, Jack Blackburn, George Chip, Lou Bogash, Leo Houck, Mike McTigue, Battling Levinsky, Billy Miske, Bill Brennan, Willie Meehan, Soldier Bartfield, Eddie McGoorty, Buck Crouse, Jackie Clark, Young Ahearn, etc. Also drew with the great Mike O'Dowd. Most (damn near all) of these men he beat multiple times.

Monzon beat: Rodrigo Valdez, Nino Benvenuti, Bennie Briscoe, Emile Griffith, Jose Napoles, Gratien Tonna, Antonio Aguilar, Tony Mundine, Denny Moyer, Tom Bogs, Jean-Claude Bouttier, Jorge Fernandez, etc. Some of them multiple times.

I'm taking Greb twice per day every day of the week and four times on Sundays.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 27 May 2018, 18:07

I don't blame you for that......but there's an awful lot "mystique, sentiment, mythology, and the soft lens of history there.

Some seem to think the sport evolves.....so newer is better......some say it's static......so the numbers are all you can look out....(wins losses ko's etc) some even say...the older fighters were less distracted, and practiced a more focused version of the sport.

With what I've seen with my own eyes, I give it to Monzon.....but I simply haven't seen Greb fight.....and like I say...his shadow is seriously intimidating.....but we all simply call it as we assess it.

Oh and some have even suggested that "taller is better". When I heard that take, I smiled, and was not overly impressed. But others picked up torches and pitchforks as their intellect was unrepairably scandalized. Leaving deep psychological scars. The counseling bills are probably unimaginable for those most severely damaged.

oogiebe · Post by **oogiebe** » 27 May 2018, 18:56

Abradolf Lincler wrote: ↑27 May 2018, 16:02
oogiebe wrote: ↑27 May 2018, 13:40
Abradolf Lincler wrote: ↑27 May 2018, 13:37

Depends on your criteria. If a mythological tournament is the basis for your rankings, it just seems far too subjective to come to anything even remotely resembling a consensus. Which is why the fighters' resume/CV or whatever you wanna call it is usually the best we all have to go on, at least when comparing fighters with whom we have a plethora of footage of vs fighters we don't.

It's why I don't really make lists or rankings anymore, honestly. I'll engage for fun here and there, but there are so many variables it ultimately seems like a fruitless endeavor to me.

What I know is that Greb has the most impressive record I've ever seen on paper. Period. There's a reason for that. And it's probably because he was the most impressive fighter ever.
I disagree on this record being the most impressive. Greb was a great fighter and an ATG for sure, but his resume, while he fought everyone of his time, isn't the best. Monzon also fought all the best during his time (a long reign). I'd take Carlos over Harry everyday of the week and twice on the weekends.
Let's compare.

Greb beat: Gene Tunney, Mickey Walker, the Gibbons bros, Tommy Loughran, Tiger Flowers, Kid Norfolk, Jack Dillon, Maxie Rosenbloom, Jeff Smith, Jimmy Slattery, Jack Blackburn, George Chip, Lou Bogash, Leo Houck, Mike McTigue, Battling Levinsky, Billy Miske, Bill Brennan, Willie Meehan, Soldier Bartfield, Eddie McGoorty, Buck Crouse, Jackie Clark, Young Ahearn, etc. Also drew with the great Mike O'Dowd. Most (damn near all) of these men he beat multiple times.

Monzon beat: Rodrigo Valdez, Nino Benvenuti, Bennie Briscoe, Emile Griffith, Jose Napoles, Gratien Tonna, Antonio Aguilar, Tony Mundine, Denny Moyer, Tom Bogs, Jean-Claude Bouttier, Jorge Fernandez, etc. Some of them multiple times.

I'm taking Greb twice per day every day of the week and four times on Sundays.

LOL! Great points, but I stand by my statements. Cheers mate!

Abradolf Lincler · Post by **Abradolf Lincler** » 27 May 2018, 19:21

oogiebe wrote: ↑27 May 2018, 18:56
Abradolf Lincler wrote: ↑27 May 2018, 16:02
oogiebe wrote: ↑27 May 2018, 13:40

I disagree on this record being the most impressive. Greb was a great fighter and an ATG for sure, but his resume, while he fought everyone of his time, isn't the best. Monzon also fought all the best during his time (a long reign). I'd take Carlos over Harry everyday of the week and twice on the weekends.
Let's compare.

Greb beat: Gene Tunney, Mickey Walker, the Gibbons bros, Tommy Loughran, Tiger Flowers, Kid Norfolk, Jack Dillon, Maxie Rosenbloom, Jeff Smith, Jimmy Slattery, Jack Blackburn, George Chip, Lou Bogash, Leo Houck, Mike McTigue, Battling Levinsky, Billy Miske, Bill Brennan, Willie Meehan, Soldier Bartfield, Eddie McGoorty, Buck Crouse, Jackie Clark, Young Ahearn, etc. Also drew with the great Mike O'Dowd. Most (damn near all) of these men he beat multiple times.

Monzon beat: Rodrigo Valdez, Nino Benvenuti, Bennie Briscoe, Emile Griffith, Jose Napoles, Gratien Tonna, Antonio Aguilar, Tony Mundine, Denny Moyer, Tom Bogs, Jean-Claude Bouttier, Jorge Fernandez, etc. Some of them multiple times.

I'm taking Greb twice per day every day of the week and four times on Sundays.
LOL! Great points, but I stand by my statements. Cheers mate!

All good. Like I said to BB, all time lists are pretty much impossible. I tend to group fighters of the modern, filmed era (roughly 40s and onward) separately from their counterparts from the past. I love all the eras, but it's tough to enjoy fighters I can only watch limited footage of more than guys I can watch a wealth of. Even tougher to compare their careers.

For what's it's worth, I consider Monzon the best Middleweight of the modern era.

HyacinthusTurnipseed · Post by **HyacinthusTurnipseed** » 28 May 2018, 01:12

Lots of posters made top ten middleweights lists in this old thread FWIW:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=205818

Scores (10 points for being #1, 9 points for #2 etc etc) collected from these 10s produced this result:

FINAL Scoreboard: (23 Members have voted)

1st - 196 pts Harry Greb
2nd - 181 pts Carlos Monzon
3rd - 168 pts Sugar Ray Robinson
4th - 165 pts Marvin Hagler
5th - 100 pts Stanley Ketchel
6th - 62 pts Mickey Walker
7th - 61 pts Bernard Hopkins
8th - 54 pts Bob Fitzsimmons
9th - 41 pts Sam Langford
10th - 26 pts Charley Burley

Tied 11th - 25 pts Roy Jones Jr
Tied 11th - 25 pts Dick Tiger
Tied 11th - 25 pts Gennady Golovkin
14th - 22 pts Jake LaMotta
15th - 21 pts Tiger Flowers
16th - 15 pts Mike Gibbons
17th - 13 pts Nino Benvenuti
Tied 18th - 12 pts James Toney
Tied 18th - 12 pts Tommy Ryan
20th - 9 pts Freddie Steele

Tied 21st - 8 pts Tony Zale
Tied 21st - 8 pts Marcel Cerdan
23rd 7 pts Holman Williams
Tied 24th - 3 pts Kid McCoy
Tied 24th - 3 pts Nonpareil Jack Dempsey
Tied 24th - 3 pts Billy Papke
Tied 24th - 3 pts Gene Fullmer
Tied 24th - 3 pts Billy Papke
28th - 2 pts Mike McCallum
29th - 1 pts Mike O'Dowd

DrDuke · Post by **DrDuke** » 28 May 2018, 12:19

BoxBuzz wrote: ↑27 May 2018, 18:07 Some seem to think the sport evolves.....so newer is better......

That actually has sense in this particular case, in the Greb-Monzon comparing. In Greb's times there was no such level of skillset. Harry logically wasn't able to outclass methodically all those guys like Monzon did to his opposition, instead of this Greb was likely to outfight his opponents. Monzon was near-perfect boxer-puncher of the modern times, he with 99,9% probability showed more class than Greb. So I can't name anyone better than Monzon before or after his times.

Silas1066 · Post by **Silas1066** » 28 May 2018, 12:30

I'm still surprised Cerdan is ranked higher here

In his first 108 fights he lost only twice, and that was because of disqualifications (low blows --and he was ahead on the cards).

By the time he finally lost a decision, he had gone 14 years without being truly beaten, and he then avenged the loss against Dellanoit by beating him in the rematch. Forget Chavez's and Mayweather's records --Cerdan's record was just insane. The guy was invincible in Europe, and then he came to the states and destroyed Zale (only Pep might have a more impressive record, going 62-0 against world-class competition, before finally losing).

Cerdan would have beaten Lamotta in the rematch ...

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 28 May 2018, 12:34

I actually do lean a bit toward the idea that the sport is evolving. But one of the ways it has evolved is that the fighters are actually heavier...within the same divisions. For example...it has become an art to "pare down" for the weighing. Where as fighters used to fight at their walking around weight. Might given a bit of an advantage to the newer fighters. Also I find some sensibility in the nutrition, and supplements that have been discovered and utilized.

However....some will argue quite sensibly that the older era fighter was less distracted, and likely more "Zen" in the pursuit of skills. I can see how the modern age becomes a challenge to stay focused.

You won't believe how many people will virtually come to blows on simple differences of opinions of this nature.

Greb could be the best......But Monzon IS the best of all viewable fighters, and I think 30 people gathered in a jury room forced to watch the fights of all the fighters that are available for viewing...could come to consensus on that. You could take 15 folks off the street, and 15 trainers....and have them watch the films for a week have them discuss what they are seeing, and then poll the group.

Hagler would win some hearts as well....as could quite possibly Golovkin. But I think the biggest plurality would end up in Monzon's camp after fully witnessing the video record. Hopkins would get some attention, but I think he would be sidelined as "too clever by half" in many opinions.

oogiebe · Post by **oogiebe** » 28 May 2018, 12:48

DrDuke wrote: ↑28 May 2018, 12:19
BoxBuzz wrote: ↑27 May 2018, 18:07 Some seem to think the sport evolves.....so newer is better......
That actually has sense in this particular case, in the Greb-Monzon comparing. In Greb's times there was no such level of skillset. Harry logically wasn't able to outclass methodically all those guys like Monzon did to his opposition, instead of this Greb was likely to outfight his opponents. Monzon was near-perfect boxer-puncher of the modern times, he with 99,9% probability showed more class than Greb. So I can't name anyone better than Monzon before or after his times.

Perfect.

TOP 10 middleweights of all time

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Re: TOP 10 middleweights of all time