BoxRec

PredatorHayds wrote:

Tuan_Jim wrote:You can't bear to admit you're wrong.

Your wrong and I've got a feeling your a troll.

Bowe ducked everyone in 96 to fight Golota even though Lewis offered more money.

We all know what happened next. He struggles against Golota and Bye Bye Bowe. Lewis just happens to rule the division the next 8 years.

No one thought Golata was a chump, so if Bowe was runnin' he ran to one of the biggest dangers in the ratings. Also, the money was not that bad for that fight.

Lennox did a lot of good things, you don't need to bash Bowe to make Lennox look good. He does just fine without your manufactured assumptions.

But there is little to genuinely indicate that either of these guys actually ducked the other, they just played for time thinking the numbers were going to be kind, and it backfired on both of them. More happenstance than strategic on either mans part. IMHO.

Why do you need this bit of history to be "your way" so badly? You're just making a mountain of assumptions on one belt that went into a trash can, and pretending it was based on one man's fear of another. It's an easy sell for those who prefer gossip and drama over the more boring realities that life usually serves up.

keithmoonhangover wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:I don't think that anyone says he was. But you were making the point by using a certain parameter, but seemed reluctant to use the same parameter when it did not help make your case.

If anything the styles issue probably works in reverse of the way you have described it. At the very best, they both avoided each other to pursue a timing that would make it more lucrative, and that time never happened. But a clearly better if less advertized/well known case is made that Lewis avoided Bow, than the reverse.

A belt being trashed, does not really indicate a particular fighter being avoided, but many surmise that to be the case. Belt's were more and more under suspicion for their exorbitant fees and that's an additional, shared, or perhaps separate reason for that action. Though that's the one everyone assumes as the cause. But it did set Bowe free from Suliman.....a guy they did not overly admire as I understand it.

I didn't use a parameter. I stated a fact about Lewis and Bowe, not anybody else.

OK, if you say you "didn't use a parameter" I'll believe you, but I could of swore I saw you walkin' around with one in your hand.

BoxBuzz wrote:

PredatorHayds wrote:

Tuan_Jim wrote:You can't bear to admit you're wrong.

Your wrong and I've got a feeling your a troll.

Bowe ducked everyone in 96 to fight Golota even though Lewis offered more money.

We all know what happened next. He struggles against Golota and Bye Bye Bowe. Lewis just happens to rule the division the next 8 years.

No one thought Golata was a chump, so if Bowe was runnin' he ran to one of the biggest dangers in the ratings. Also, the money was not that bad for that fight.

Lennox did a lot of good things, you don't need to bash Bowe to make Lennox look good. He does just fine without your manufactured assumptions.

But there is little to genuinely indicate that either of these guys actually ducked the other, they just played for time thinking the numbers were going to be kind, and it backfired on both of them. More happenstance than strategic on either mans part. IMHO.

Why do you need this bit of history to be "your way" so badly? You're just making a mountain of assumptions on one belt that went into a trash can, and pretending it was based on one man's fear of another. It's an easy sell for those who prefer gossip and drama over the more boring realities that life usually serves up.

?????
You seem to judge my entire view in both fighters from one paragraph.

The truth of the matter is I rate Bowe and I rate Lewis.

Unfortunately there was a never a time when they simply HAD to face each other. There was always a obstacle either a loss or money dispute in the way.

Golota was a good fighter and the money was good, but not in the same league of money as a Lewis fight was.

I can quite easily say both were fantastic fighters shame you can't get off Bowes Johnson and do the same

Probably as close as your ever gonna get to being agreeable.

I don't have any dog in this discussion other than facts.

I think I already mentioned my opinion was positive on both fighters.

And your latest words seem to be acknowledging of things you had earlier reputed.

Your insults aside, looks like your eyes are opening, ever so slightly.


Facts have a way of doing that.

Bowe ballooned up and paid the price against Golota. Nobody ever made the same mistake again versus Andrew Golota.

Very similar to how nobody ever made the same mistake again of getting hit square by that Hasim Rahman right hand.

I don't think anyone can attempt any one-upmanship of Lewis over Bowe without some similar charge being tossed back at them. Personally I'd prefer to lose a razor-thin decision to Evander Holyfield than be KOd by Oliver McCall. I'd rather go down fighting versus a gifted talent like Andrew Golota then get laid clean out by Hasim Rahman. I'd rather outpoint a prime Holyfield in the fight of the decade, and KO him in a rubber match, than scrape a decision over a 37 year old in a turgid affair.

Tuan_Jim wrote:Bowe ballooned up and paid the price against Golota. Nobody ever made the same mistake again versus Andrew Golota.

Very similar to how nobody ever made the same mistake again of getting hit square by that Hasim Rahman right hand.

I don't think anyone can attempt any one-upmanship of Lewis over Bowe without some similar charge being tossed back at them. Personally I'd prefer to lose a razor-thin decision to Evander Holyfield than be KOd by Oliver McCall. I'd rather go down fighting versus a gifted talent like Andrew Golota then get laid clean out by Hasim Rahman. I'd rather outpoint a prime Holyfield in the fight of the decade, and KO him in a rubber match, than scrape a decision over a 37 year old in a turgid affair.

I'd prefer to dominate a division for 8 years.

Tuan_Jim wrote:Bowe ballooned up and paid the price against Golota. Nobody ever made the same mistake again versus Andrew Golota.

Very similar to how nobody ever made the same mistake again of getting hit square by that Hasim Rahman right hand.

I don't think anyone can attempt any one-upmanship of Lewis over Bowe without some similar charge being tossed back at them. Personally I'd prefer to lose a razor-thin decision to Evander Holyfield than be KOd by Oliver McCall. I'd rather go down fighting versus a gifted talent like Andrew Golota then get laid clean out by Hasim Rahman. I'd rather outpoint a prime Holyfield in the fight of the decade, and KO him in a rubber match, than scrape a decision over a 37 year old in a turgid affair.

And let's not get carried away with Golota. Rahman was a better fighter.
Golotas best win was a 98 Witherspoon.
He lost against every world class fighter he faced and Lewis beat him more convincingly in his very next fight after Bowe.

[quote="Tuan_Jim"]Bowe ballooned up and paid the price against Golota. Nobody ever made the same mistake again versus Andrew Golota.

And Bowe was also lucky again in the rematch. So they did make the same mistake against Golota.

Lennox's run is undeniable and well managed.

Golata was one of the most unstable fighters to lace em up.

He had skills, and a fragile psyche. He fought best when he lost. lol.

I mean his "losses" to Bowe, Ruiz and Byrd were his top moments. He destroyed himself.

And yep Bad on Bowe for not taking him seriously.

BoxBuzz wrote:Lennox's run is undeniable and well managed.

Golata was one of the most unstable fighters to lace em up.

He had skills, and a fragile psyche. He fought best when he lost. lol.

I mean his "losses" to Bowe, Ruiz and Byrd were his top moments. He destroyed himself.

And yep Bad on Bowe for not taking him seriously.

Bowe-Golota were fantastic fights.

Golota was as unsteady as they come.

I can remember screaming at the tv to keep them up.
Lou Duva was lost for words for once

At the start of their careers I was convinced Bowe would beat Lewis. But slowly as their careers evolved I moved to the Lewis camp.

Bowe was never scared. It was just one of those cynical things fighters are advised to do to build up an opponent so as to make more money.

Bowe and Lewis wanted to fight one another but they wanted to do it for a lot of money.

In the end Bowe has to take more of the blame because he did drop the belt. But Tuan is right. Pretty much you can throw argument and counter argument with these two.

Can someone plesee tell me when Lennox Lewis dominated the heavyweight division for 8 years? He never had an unbroken 8 year run of victories, and when he unified the title he immediately vacated one belt and was retired 4 years later - a period which included a KO loss.

Tuan_Jim wrote:Can someone plesee tell me when Lennox Lewis dominated the heavyweight division for 8 years? He never had an unbroken 8 year run of victories, and when he unified the title he immediately vacated one belt and was retired 4 years later - a period which included a KO loss.

Apart from the Rahman loss which he avenged there was about a 8 year stretch when he was considered heavyweight number 1 by some people.
Surely you can admit his longevity was impressive?

Holyfield ruined bowe and embarrassed Lewis. The true king of that era.

PredatorHayds wrote:

Tuan_Jim wrote:Can someone plesee tell me when Lennox Lewis dominated the heavyweight division for 8 years? He never had an unbroken 8 year run of victories, and when he unified the title he immediately vacated one belt and was retired 4 years later - a period which included a KO loss.

Apart from the Rahman loss which he avenged there was about a 8 year stretch when he was considered heavyweight number 1 by some people.
Surely you can admit his longevity was impressive?

Well that's completely different to being "dominant", isn't it? You've said "dominant" in several posts now. This 8 year run, which as you concede includes a KO loss, saw him fighting Justin Fortune and Tommy Morrison while Riddick Bowe tackled Jorge Luis Gonzalez and KOd Evander Holyfield. It includes his hugely unpopular decision over Ray Mercer, in a year where Tyson made swift easy work of Bruno and Holyfield crushed Tyson. In fact in 1996 Boxing Monthly, long time Lewis supporters, despaired over whether their man would "ever be ready for Tyson" after he escaped Mercer. Crucially, they didn't like his chances against Tyson (OR Witherspoon), which punches holes in the idea of him being the number 1 heavyweight. He wasn't even number 1 on the MSG bill. In 1997, when Holyfield and Tyson engaged in the Biggest Fight of All Time (up to that point), Lewis was fighting Henry Akinwande. . . When Holyfield - the recognised Man, incidentally - was unifying with Michael Moorer, Lewis fought Golota who, if we are to be consistent with your opinions, is of no merit anyway because he never won any big fights.

No one can logically claim that in narrowly beating Holyfield in November 1999 - a decision widely disputed in the press - Lewis proved that he would always have beaten Holyfield, and therefore he was number 1 all along - because of course Holyfield was 37 and boxing is a sport that physically impairs its combatants. No one has ever argued that the 37 year old Lewis who boxed Klitschko was in his prime, and no one should argue the 37 year old Holyfield who boxed Lewis was in his either. Both men were going down fast.

All that being said, anyone who can claim Lennox lewis was dominant for 8 years and say with a straight face that Hasim Rahman was more talented than Andrew Golota can certainly be crowned number 1 Revisionist Historian.

Rahman was a world champion who had better wins than Golota.
Who's Golotas best win?
I personally feel Lewis was the best heavyweight of a era.
He clearly beat Holyfield it wasn't disputed at all. The second fight was closer than the first that's all.
They both beat Holyfield but Bowe beat a better version.

You obviously don't rate Lewis very highly and I've tried to have a debate but to be honest Tuan I don't rate your opinion on boxing.
I'd also rate Morrison and Mercer higher than Gonzalez.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Holyfield ruined bowe and embarrassed Lewis. The true king of that era.

Good argument to be made here. Lewis had a well managed run. Losses to McCall and Rahman are hard to excuse if your attempting to make him out to be King of that era. I think Bowe was the best of the 3 but he could not maintain that form. So being "best" means little when you can't hold form. Holy was the real Iron Man, never backing down from anyone, giving everyone all they could handle, all the time every time.

PredatorHayds wrote:Rahman was a world champion who had better wins than Golota.
Who's Golotas best win?

What a facile way of grading talent. I'm using the eyes, which capture an Andrew Golota who could move, and throw beautiful combination punches while going backwards or forward. In Hasim Rahman I see a Bruno-style manufactured boxer, a powerhouse with low ring acumen and a very big right hand.

Golota made his name in 16 rounds versus Riddick Bowe. Hasim Rahman made his name with one punch, delivered in a round he was losing, in a fight he was losing.

Oliver McCall has more wins over prime, ATG heavyweights than Larry Holmes. Does that make Oliver McCall better than Larry Holmes?

PredatorHayds wrote: I personally feel Lewis was the best heavyweight of a era.
He clearly beat Holyfield it wasn't disputed at all. The second fight was closer than the first that's all.

Just to be certain - you think those fights weren't disputed? Is this your patchy memory or your ignorance speaking? Just as you were forced to backtrack on your Bowe being scared of Lewis posts, once the pesky media was shared, you will have to backtrack here when the same is done again. The Lewis/Holyfield verdicts, particularly the second, split opinion.

I don't think anyone can rate your opinion on boxing too highly. You deliberately misunderstand posts in order to debate a point no one made. You've had to discreetly shift your position on a couple of arguments here in order to save face.

PredatorHayds wrote:Rahman was a world champion who had better wins than Golota.
Who's Golotas best win?
I personally feel Lewis was the best heavyweight of a era.
He clearly beat Holyfield it wasn't disputed at all. The second fight was closer than the first that's all.
They both beat Holyfield but Bowe beat a better version.

You obviously don't rate Lewis very highly and I've tried to have a debate but to be honest Tuan I don't rate your opinion on boxing.
I'd also rate Morrison and Mercer higher than Gonzalez.

I scored the second fight for Holyfield and so did a lot of people including Larry Holmes and Roy Jones.

There's a whole raft of opinion in favour of Holyfield, which I will be sharing when I can be bothered to do so.

It's absolutely fine to think Lewis won the fight (unless you score it like 83 year old ringside judge Bill Graham, who arrived with a pre-completed scorecard of something like 120-102 in favour of Lewis - that's not all right), but you can't claim there was 'no dispute at all' simply because you have a short term or selective memory.

Interesting thread.

Thought Lewis won a close but easy to score victory in rematch with holy. But I do feel that holy was the best of the generation.

Was he better than Holmes?

I scored the second fight for Holyfield as well.

Evander edged that one.

Ambling Alp II wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:

legacyrecognised wrote:It annoys me when people rate Mike Tyson "prime" more than Lennox even though Lennox was an amateur in Tyson's "prime" from 85-90. Also Tyson paid Lennox $4 million to avoid fighting him. Doesnt this show Tyson was afraid of Lewis just how Riddick Bowe was when he dumped the belt in the bin?

Why are boxers like Tyson and Holyfield constantly ranked better than Lennox Lewis when he was the best Heavyweight of his generation?

Tyson would've avoided Evander too if he'd known Evander wasn't shot.

Lewis's two KO losses to 2nd raters and his struggles vs Bruno, Mercer, Tucker etc. kind of put a dent in the fear factor; whereas Tyson in his prime was hardly ever even buzzed by shots.

I don't think he was feared by the other top guys.
However he was a really good and at times great fighter.
He had less trouble with Tucker than Tyson did.
That really was not a KO loss to McCall; he got up and the fight was stopped prematurely.
.

Less trouble with Tucker? He was buzzed twice and I had Lewis winning 6-4 with Tucker sweeping the final 3 rounds on a tiring Lewis. Tucker vs Tyson won two rounds at most and Tony had to clinch through most of the fight.

Yeah Tyson romped to a UD over a prime Tucker. Lewis had a troublesome night with a heavy, 35 year old Tucker who had emerged from the mist of the crack pipe.

legacyrecognised wrote:It annoys me when people rate Mike Tyson "prime" more than Lennox even though Lennox was an amateur in Tyson's "prime" from 85-90. Also Tyson paid Lennox $4 million to avoid fighting him. Doesnt this show Tyson was afraid of Lewis just how Riddick Bowe was when he dumped the belt in the bin?

Why are boxers like Tyson and Holyfield constantly ranked better than Lennox Lewis when he was the best Heavyweight of his generation?

Because he would come out with all gun's blazing against least dangerous opponent's and look like a monster then as soon as he gets in with someone that will blast back he would revert to his safety first style when you look at the two fighter's you just mentioned Lewis towered over them Lewis had all the physical advantage's Against Holyfield but he still refused to stand with the smaller man and exchange Bowe let it all hang out in his three very entertaining fight's with Holyfield and so did Tyson even his teeth got in on the act Lewis was robbed of victory in the 1st fight with Holyfield in the rematch there is no way in hell
that he [Lewis] won that fight Lewis fought a scarred fight all night long as for Tyson that was a non event Lewis wouldn't risk farting just
in case Tyson tagged him while he was sniffing the air Lewis fought Tyson 6 LONG year's after the 1st Holyfield v Tyson fight that's
6 year's why............Again he fought cautious early then when Tyson couldn't hold his hand's up from fatigue Lewis fought like he could of in 2 fight's with Holyfield let alone the Tyson fight Tyson was so washed up a blind man could see it of cause if your a Lewis fan you'll ignore that won't you......................ps...If you think about this would a prime Lewis Beat a Prime Tyson he would be some sort of chance with like I said before his physical advantage's but my bet is Lewis would be so fearful of Tysons Power that he would be KO'D early because of the negative way he would fight against Tyson waiting for him to tire, Tyson when younger with his head movement and his unpredictable bobbing and weaving that Cus taught him would drive Lewis mad and when we look at the version of Holyfield that met Lewis he was past his best also Remember Oliver and Hasim I don't think either of them would KO Holyfield or Tyson in their life even washed up version's.