BoxRec

BAD INTENTIONS wrote:If Ward beats any top 5 fighter at 168 or 175 in the usual Ward manner, I'd give him back p4p #1.
Rigondeaux is my #2 because he's getting the duck treatment. If he was given better opportunities, I think he'd be #1.

Rigondeaux isn't getting ducked.

***Edited due to anti-Cuban tirade.***

Roman Gonzalez.... P4P #1

44-0 with 38 KOs
Three division world champion
Extremely dominate in each division



Nuff said.... unless you believe he took the paths of least resistance for each title and subsequent defenses.

Black boxers encounter less racism from the boxing industry than Black anything else encounters in any other sector or facet of life. He could be talking about genocide in all sorts of countries in Africa or the fact that American police have carte blanche to unjustifiably murder 1,000 Black people each year and not get convicted for it. He could talk about how the American legal system disproportionately favors police over White civilians, whom they favor over Mexican and Black civilians at every level of the system from traffic stops to arrests to indictments to convictions to whether jail time is included in sentencing to the length of the jail time recommended. Instead, he's talking about the plight of the poor millionaire boxer who can only acquire a #4 p4p ranking in a very important magazine, which can be entirely attributed to inactivity and lack of recent quality opponents. That magazine ranking could negatively impact Ward's earning power, much moreso than the many factors within Ward's direct control -- like activity, choice of opposition, choice of venue, entertainment value (style that most fans hate), persona that nobody likes, and marketing.

reggaereggae wrote:

Tony1244 wrote:

Horse wrote:Are you drunk?

Yeah, not sure what your point here is regaer. Of course I've been in and driven thru various kinds of places. I have never pretended to have lived the life of a Leon Spinks or Mike Tyson. All I said was that there are racists of all colors, even though most people are not racists.

Right.....so you've driven through a couple of difficult places, with the windows up and sh1tting yourself... And now you're an expert on the ghetto! Jaysus this is too funny

You would get torn apart in any majority black area and quickly change your 'liberal' tune.... You are a pussyhole

As a tanzanian living in elephant n castle, i find this possibly the most moronic thing ive read. Where do you live reggaer?

As a white myself i have to admit that most of Wilder's haters are fat white ugly men and classic KKK faces

BAD INTENTIONS wrote:[
I think p4p #1 has to answer two major criteria.
Who would be the best all things even?
Who has accomplished the most?

I believe the main criteria for p4p is simply the first one you listed there.
It's supposed to be a measure of who is the best, in terms of ability right this very moment.
But as you alluded to, the two are linked.
It is impossible to truly tell how good someone is if their level of competition hasn't been good enough, which is why you need to rely on resumes

Ward is arguably the best fighter on the planet.
But he needs to display that as we just can't say for certain on the past 4 years worth of evidence

conty22 wrote:As a white myself i have to admit that most of Wilder's haters are fat white ugly men and classic KKK faces

As a white I'm inclined to agree.
I see the same over here regarding Amir Khan.

But one thing you have to be careful of, is distinguishing legitimate criticism with hate.

The distinction can often be extremely difficult to make as both men are:
a) subject to a disproportionate amount of criticism due to thier skin colour and people who can't stand seeing them succeed
And
b) Deserving of fairly large amounts of legitimate criticism for the way they have managed their careers and the way they conduct themselves at times.

Unfortunately sometimes legit criticism can be mistaken for racism while racist can often hide behind legit sounding criticism.

davie wrote:

BAD INTENTIONS wrote:[
I think p4p #1 has to answer two major criteria.
Who would be the best all things even?
Who has accomplished the most?

I believe the main criteria for p4p is simply the first one you listed there.
It's supposed to be a measure of who is the best, in terms of ability right this very moment.
But as you alluded to, the two are linked.
It is impossible to truly tell how good someone is if their level of competition hasn't been good enough, which is why you need to rely on resumes

Ward is arguably the best fighter on the planet.
But he needs to display that as we just can't say for certain on the past 4 years worth of evidence

I think the above is untrue for several reasons. Sure, if you are looking purely on paper without seeing a boxer in action, it's all that you have to go on. But we all have the ability through the internet to see most fighters in action now to form an opinion. Another reason is that everything is relative. For instance, the uneducated fan grasping at straws to detract from GGG's rise to fame claim that he hasn't fought anyone because he's walked through 21 straight KO's. When in reality, he's just so much better than everyone right now that he makes these world class boxers look elementary. No one was saying that Sergio was ducking people by fighting Martin Murray and barely squeaking by. Murray is world class. Lemieux was knocking everyone out and just won his first world title and no one in the world would consider taking on Lemieux a soft defense but we are talking about GGG here. He's knocked them all out but all of sudden these world class fighters are chumps because of the way he walked through them.

Boxing is so fickle. Mike Tyson walked through easier opposition on his rise to P4P throne but never faced the criticism that GGG has. Who knows why some get knocked for things that others get praised for in the sport? But I definitely put more stock on the eye test and what I see a boxer do in the ring against multiple styles before forming an opinion. And i definitely don't knock a guy for not jumping up or down in weight to challenge the best outside their weight class. That's not how you measure a boxer. You measure them on how they do in the weight class they are in and then consider if everyone weight the exact same, who has the best chance of winning it all.

Ricky_ wrote:

Impractical Poster wrote:I'm sure if Andre had been more active, and still undefeated, he'd be #1. But, he hasn't. His career has been so anticlimactic in every sense... he's lucky to be on a top 10 list.

Indeed. He's had 3 fights in 4 years against poor or drained opposition.

Andre Ward is a has-been.

the mix of races is so very common place in
boxing it doesn't play any role in rankings. for
decades world class boxing was almost as 100m
sprinting and you cannot be a real boxing fan
and racist.

andre ward's situation is so obviously not race
driven, it really says a lot about floyd himself.
no surprise of course. great, great boxer with a
very, very flawed character.

Racism is the most overused word in the human dictionary these days. 90% of the time people bring up racism, it's not even racism. The fact is some people are just assholes, ignorant and shortsighted, not racists.

Also any ethnicity is capable of being a racist, but that's a touchy subject I don't want to go any further into

[quote="NateJR"]Racism is the most overused word in the human dictionary these days. 90% of the time people bring up racism, it's not even racism. The fact is some people are just assholes, ignorant and shortsighted, not racists.

I'm white and every now and then I'm treated poorly or ignored by other whites for God knows what reason. There was a Pep boys in the town I used to live in that refused to serve me.

What's my point? Good question. If I was black, I would have thought it was racism.

man wrote:the mix of races is so very common place in
boxing it doesn't play any role in rankings. for
decades world class boxing was almost as 100m
sprinting and you cannot be a real boxing fan
and racist.

andre ward's situation is so obviously not race
driven, it really says a lot about floyd himself.
no surprise of course. great, great boxer with a
very, very flawed character.

Great boxer, flawed character. You hit the nail on the head.

I think this "racism" that he speaks of is more political than racial but sometimes it can become confusing; P4P rankings are highly subjective but only mean much more to the boxing public who don't follow the sport as closely as the diehard fans here.

So when he speaks about how they (magazines/tv media/newspapers/journalist) seemingly (in his mind) put another fighter ahead of fighters he feel deserve to be ranked higher he somehow deduce that to mean that it is based on racial discrimination (which may or may not necessarily be the case).

There was a time back when Merchant was announcing on HBO that he mostly attacked the fighters who are Black and seemingly never wanted to give them credit, with the exception of Mosley and when they were celebrating Taylor (because they hated Hopkins then) I've never seen him give the nice interviews with fighters who were black than he was with boxers of other persuasions.

Whites do have a tendency to get celebrated (financially and publicly endorsed) more in this country when they accomplish a certain thing, why is it that certain athletes have made it onto the box of Wheaties and you have other athletes who happen to be black that have accomplished more but never make it (and don't blame marketing)??

Hopkins is the oldest champion ever in history, why isn't he being endorsed but Connor McGregor (who isn't even American) is being celebrated more?

Here is an article that conveys some of the same line of thinking: https://sports.vice.com/en_us/article/s ... k-athletes

And that's just one of the many out there that breaks down some of this social racism. The only problem is that you cannot break this cycle of bigotry, hate and racism because it starts in the home being taught by your parents and then you pick up more from your friends who have been taught the same stuff you have from their parents and it is further manipulated by stereotypes in the media and negative statistics which are usually twisted to help perpetuate the bigotry, hate, ignorance and racism.

I don't necessarily agree with Floyd but I don't wholeheartedly disagree with him either because there are stats to back up some of what he has stated.

Undefeated49-0 wrote:Whites do have a tendency to get celebrated (financially and publicly endorsed) more in this country when they accomplish a certain thing, why is it that certain athletes have made it onto the box of Wheaties and you have other athletes who happen to be black that have accomplished more but never make it (and don't blame marketing)??

the top money makers in boxing over decades
have been blacks. the majority of p4p ATGs are
blacks, the top three heavy weights in history
are blacks, the best p4p ever is black. i could go
on for half an hour ... oh, and floyd mayweather
has earned more than anybody else and he was
pretty black last time i checked.

Undefeated49-0 wrote:Hopkins is the oldest champion ever in history, why isn't he being endorsed but Connor McGregor (who isn't even American) is being celebrated more?

because hopkins being old is not terribly exciting
and he was never a household name due to his
style to begin with. whereas this mcgregor guy
goes in all guns blazing. you are comparing apples
with bicycles.

Undefeated49-0 wrote:And that's just one of the many out there that breaks down some of this social racism. The only problem is that you cannot break this cycle of bigotry, hate and racism ...

you could start by not making everything a racial
thing. andre ward has not accomplished anything
seriously over years and ring still has him at fourth.
common, if you want to reduce racism stop using
the race argument like a reflex no matter the context.

man wrote:

Undefeated49-0 wrote:Whites do have a tendency to get celebrated (financially and publicly endorsed) more in this country when they accomplish a certain thing, why is it that certain athletes have made it onto the box of Wheaties and you have other athletes who happen to be black that have accomplished more but never make it (and don't blame marketing)??

the top money makers in boxing over decades
have been blacks. the majority of p4p ATGs are
blacks, the top three heavy weights in history
are blacks, the best p4p ever is black. i could go
on for half an hour ... oh, and floyd mayweather
has earned more than anybody else and he was
pretty black last time i checked.

Undefeated49-0 wrote:Hopkins is the oldest champion ever in history, why isn't he being endorsed but Connor McGregor (who isn't even American) is being celebrated more?

because hopkins being old is not terribly exciting
and he was never a household name due to his
style to begin with. whereas this mcgregor guy
goes in all guns blazing. you are comparing apples
with bicycles.

Undefeated49-0 wrote:And that's just one of the many out there that breaks down some of this social racism. The only problem is that you cannot break this cycle of bigotry, hate and racism ...

you could start by not making everything a racial
thing. andre ward has not accomplished anything
seriously over years and ring still has him at fourth.
common, if you want to reduce racism stop using
the race argument like a reflex no matter the context.

Where are Floyd's commercials?? Manny had them. Where are Hopkins commercials? A company selling a product isn't necessarily concerned with how you looked doing what you did, they're more concerned with your stats, take Wheaties for instance, who gets to be on the cover of their box?

People who achieved a certain something, not one boxer (I'll use Mancini) has been on their box cover because of how he fights and he was always exciting.

Don't act as if I'm making this all about race, I just said I don't necessarily agree or disagree with him on some of the things he said.

He made a perfect statement of that same thing I'm talking about when he mentioned Laila Ali, she's pretty and a champion who never gets into trouble but has no commercial endorsements, she was an undefeated fighter but Rhonda Rousey has all kinds of endorsements.

Keep closing your eyes to the obvious facts in that statement though and claim I'm being racial when it is totally evident.

Undefeated49-0 wrote:Where are Floyd's commercials?? Manny had them. Where are Hopkins commercials? A company selling a product isn't necessarily concerned with how you looked doing what you did, they're more concerned with your stats, take Wheaties for instance, who gets to be on the cover of their box?

People who achieved a certain something, not one boxer (I'll use Mancini) has been on their box cover because of how he fights and he was always exciting.

Don't act as if I'm making this all about race, I just said I don't necessarily agree or disagree with him on some of the things he said.

He made a perfect statement of that same thing I'm talking about when he mentioned Laila Ali, she's pretty and a champion who never gets into trouble but has no commercial endorsements, she was an undefeated fighter but Rhonda Rousey has all kinds of endorsements.

Keep closing your eyes to the obvious facts in that statement though and claim I'm being racial when it is totally evident.

there is many things i cannot comment on,
but i do have an idea about the andre ward
case, which is the subject at hand.

regarding commercials though i think you
got things upside down. american companies
do anything to sell. if they use one person
and not another, this is what make the difference.
ronda rousey kicking ass im MMA like she did was
just way more exciting than beautiful laila boxing
in rather orthodox and civilised ways. if marketers
think you increase sales of their product you can
be green with orange stripes around your hairline.

america adored sugar ray and ali and basket ball
stars have been marketed like crazy. hell the fab
four were not precisely white and neither was mike
tyson.

were the klitschkos not marketed because they were
white? no, they were not, because they were boring.

man wrote:

Undefeated49-0 wrote:Where are Floyd's commercials?? Manny had them. Where are Hopkins commercials? A company selling a product isn't necessarily concerned with how you looked doing what you did, they're more concerned with your stats, take Wheaties for instance, who gets to be on the cover of their box?

People who achieved a certain something, not one boxer (I'll use Mancini) has been on their box cover because of how he fights and he was always exciting.

Don't act as if I'm making this all about race, I just said I don't necessarily agree or disagree with him on some of the things he said.

He made a perfect statement of that same thing I'm talking about when he mentioned Laila Ali, she's pretty and a champion who never gets into trouble but has no commercial endorsements, she was an undefeated fighter but Rhonda Rousey has all kinds of endorsements.

Keep closing your eyes to the obvious facts in that statement though and claim I'm being racial when it is totally evident.

there is many things i cannot comment on,
but i do have an idea about the andre ward
case, which is the subject at hand.

regarding commercials though i think you
got things upside down. american companies
do anything to sell. if they use one person
and not another, this is what make the difference.
ronda rousey kicking ass im MMA like she did was
just way more exciting than beautiful laila boxing
in rather orthodox and civilised ways. if marketers
think you increase sales of their product you can
be green with orange stripes around your hairline.

america adored sugar ray and ali and basket ball
stars have been marketed like crazy. hell the fab
four were not precisely white and neither was mike
tyson.

were the klitschkos not marketed because they were
white? no, they were not, because they were boring.

The irony is Mayweather himself hit the nail on the head a few years ago. I don't remember the exact words but the point was, "White or black doesn't matter, the color that matters is green (money)."

Racism in boxing?

Yep.

You are right, Floyd.

There is an awful lot of work to do before we get to a place
where race is totally irrelevant.

But if you are going to talk about it, tell the whole truth.

Truth is Jack Johnson was heavyweight champ of the world almost 40 years before
Jackie Robinson broke the color barrier in baseball.

Boxing is the one sport that has been proving over and over again for over a century
that we are all the same, that we all are flesh and blood and bone.

You can talk about how superior your race is all you like, but when you climb
between those ropes, you are a man (or woman) and that is all you are.

And no preconceived idiocy about how much better you think you are is going to
stop the other guy from putting you on your ass if you haven't put the work in,
if you haven't taken the time to respect your opponent as someone as capable as you are.

Boxing may still have racism, but it has always led the way towards equality in sports...

Yes, racism is in boxing, but mayweather is hardly qualified to bring it up, he is a racist himself, his comments about Pacman and the fact that he has made more money then anyone else, considering he is not a big ticket seller or the most entertaining.

Anzi wrote:Yes, racism is in boxing, but mayweather is hardly qualified to bring it up, he is a racist himself, his comments about Pacman and the fact that he has made more money then anyone else, considering he is not a big ticket seller or the most entertaining.

Yes, the comments Floyd made about Pac were racist.

That, however, doesn't disqualify him from talking about racism.

And just how did he make all that money without selling lots of tickets or
without being perceived as entertaining is some way?

man wrote:there is many things i cannot comment on,
but i do have an idea about the andre ward
case, which is the subject at hand.

regarding commercials though i think you
got things upside down. american companies
do anything to sell. if they use one person
and not another, this is what make the difference.
ronda rousey kicking ass im MMA like she did was
just way more exciting than beautiful laila boxing
in rather orthodox and civilised ways. if marketers
think you increase sales of their product you can
be green with orange stripes around your hairline.

america adored sugar ray and ali and basket ball
stars have been marketed like crazy. hell the fab
four were not precisely white and neither was mike
tyson.

were the klitschkos not marketed because they were
white? no, they were not, because they were boring.

they're not American which is why they weren't marketed here.

caldo2025 wrote:Mike Tyson walked through easier opposition on his rise to P4P throne but never faced the criticism that GGG has. Who knows why some get knocked for things that others get praised for in the sport?

Before turning age 21, Mike Tyson had already defeated Trevor Berbick, Bonecrusher Smith, and Pinklon Thomas. Tyson did NOT face easier opposition than GGG, unless you're comparing Tyson's opponents at age 18 to Golovkin's opposition at age 33. At equal ages, Tyson always had a superior professional resume. At age 33, Golovkin's best opponents are Daniel Geale, Martin Murray, and David Lemieux. By the same age, Mike Tyson had fought Trevor Berbick, Bonecrusher Smith, Pinkon Thomas, Tony Tucker, Tyrell Biggs, Michael Spinks, Frank Bruno, Larry Holmes, Buster Douglas, Razor Ruddock, Buster Mathis, and Evander Holyfield. Like I mean... are you trying to tell us that David Geale and Martin Murray are better than Evander Holyfield and Larry Holmes? Tyson beat 4 opponents with a boxrec rating of 100+ when he was 19. Golovkin didn't beat 4 opponents with boxrec rating of 100+ until he was 28.

Lackeos wrote:

caldo2025 wrote:Mike Tyson walked through easier opposition on his rise to P4P throne but never faced the criticism that GGG has. Who knows why some get knocked for things that others get praised for in the sport?

Before turning age 21, Mike Tyson had already defeated Trevor Berbick, Bonecrusher Smith, and Pinklon Thomas. Tyson did NOT face easier opposition than GGG, unless you're comparing Tyson's opponents at age 18 to Golovkin's opposition at age 33. At equal ages, Tyson always had a superior professional resume. At age 33, Golovkin's best opponents are Daniel Geale, Martin Murray, and David Lemieux. By the same age, Mike Tyson had fought Trevor Berbick, Bonecrusher Smith, Pinkon Thomas, Tony Tucker, Tyrell Biggs, Michael Spinks, Frank Bruno, Larry Holmes, Buster Douglas, Razor Ruddock, Buster Mathis, and Evander Holyfield. Like I mean... are you trying to tell us that David Geale and Martin Murray are better than Evander Holyfield and Larry Holmes? Tyson beat 4 opponents with a boxrec rating of 100+ when he was 19. Golovkin didn't beat 4 opponents with boxrec rating of 100+ until he was 28.

Mike Tyson fought a string of bums just as Julio Cesar Chavez fought a string of bums before either of them faced anyone legit.

Lackeos wrote:

caldo2025 wrote:Mike Tyson walked through easier opposition on his rise to P4P throne but never faced the criticism that GGG has. Who knows why some get knocked for things that others get praised for in the sport?

Before turning age 21, Mike Tyson had already defeated Trevor Berbick, Bonecrusher Smith, and Pinklon Thomas. Tyson did NOT face easier opposition than GGG, unless you're comparing Tyson's opponents at age 18 to Golovkin's opposition at age 33. At equal ages, Tyson always had a superior professional resume. At age 33, Golovkin's best opponents are Daniel Geale, Martin Murray, and David Lemieux. By the same age, Mike Tyson had fought Trevor Berbick, Bonecrusher Smith, Pinkon Thomas, Tony Tucker, Tyrell Biggs, Michael Spinks, Frank Bruno, Larry Holmes, Buster Douglas, Razor Ruddock, Buster Mathis, and Evander Holyfield. Like I mean... are you trying to tell us that David Geale and Martin Murray are better than Evander Holyfield and Larry Holmes? Tyson beat 4 opponents with a boxrec rating of 100+ when he was 19. Golovkin didn't beat 4 opponents with boxrec rating of 100+ until he was 28.

Golovkin started his professional career at 24 and exactly a year later he stopped Khomitsky who is better than anybody Tyson fought in first couple years of his career.