BoxRec

gil turner. pushed too hard too fast and too young.

Turner is an interesting case. He fought a lot and against some good competition. His career lasted 8 years but he still had over 60 fights.

That does seem to be a bit too ambitious. On the other hand, look at Del Flanagan, a contemporary of his. He started his career before Turner, and fought several years after Turner. Flanagan had over 100 fights. He seemed to have been able to maintain a higher level as he aged than Turner. Like Turner he fought often and often against quality competition. Turner was only 28 when he retired after declining.

When they each fought other twice. One was early in their careers, and Turner won. Six years later Flanagan won.

Neither was able to win a title; though back then their was not 4 champions and the division was loaded.

Would be interesting to know how each did financially from boxing.

AngryGoon38 wrote: i still remember the build up to Holmes-Cooney to this day ... i knew he was still way too inexperienced,way too unrefined with his defensive fundementals and too flat-footed as well. Plus he needed to really work on his jab so he could really utilize his height and reach but Cooney liked to fight inside way too much,and thus basically wasting his height and reach for the most part.

Cooney was 2 fighters. One previously to the Holmes fight and one after. He allowed that loss to destroy him emotionally at 25 and destroy his potential. He never fought well again after that. He fell to cocaine and alcohol abuse and didn't fight for well over 2 years. He damaged his career very badly and didn't seem to care. He was on autopilot with no ambition whatever.

Gerry had great wins over Young, Lyle, and Norton. I would have matched him guys like Page, Berbick, and Coatzee. Guys who were more mid career to polish his skills for Holmes. You can't refine skills against washed up opponents you can run over without even trying. But I put a lot of his problems on Cooney. He didn't do badly versus Holmes and he COULD have learned a ton from that fight: about the jab.. conditioning.. defense.. ring generalship.. and what facing quality world class skills is all about.. He went 13 rounds with the best Heavyweight on the planet and wasn't knocked cold.. He could have come back like anyone else and lived up to his potential. He didn't. He didn't fight for over 2 years. He fought Michael Spinks for the money after being out more than a year. He fought Foreman for the money after being out almost 3 years. He got trashed early in both fights. Compared to the enthusiastic guy who fought Young, Lyle, and Norton, (even though they were done) he had no strength, movement, muscle tone, power, or quickness. What he did have was vastly diminished skills and you don't take those into fights against competitors who are resolutely determined to be the best in the world.

bowe
a garcia
masquev
david reid
many many more

Syntax Error wrote:~ Marvis Frazier - His father mismanaged him IMHO. Marvis was a talented boxer, but Joe tried to turn him into a 'mini-me' & pushed him too fast.

~ Amir Khan - I don't know who is advising Khan at the moment, but they're not doing a very good job. A top fighter in his prime has been lying most idle for the last 3 years chasing glory against ATGs that he has no right to share the ring with, yet turns his nose up at some cracking fights that could be had in the weltwerwight division. I hope for Amir's sake that his prime isn't passing him by.

Couldnt be more of a contrast between a like marvis who was mismanaged....and guys like amir khan and audley harrison....who called all the shots and mismanaged themselves ..harrison and khan did well financially but in the ring their careers have been average and poor (harrison)

Cooney was managed perfectly. Weaver would have knocked him out.

Nile4000 wrote:[ Marvis Frazier had a certain limit to his sucess at Heavyweight. The elites would always beat him.

I don't see it that way because Marvis was well coached and terribly matched.. He had a lot of talent but he was put in way to deep to quickly. If managed right he could have become a very exceptional boxer.

He easily Joe Bugner in his 10th fight, but you don't go for Larry Holmes in your 11th fight.. You had Larry Holmes 44-0 vs Marvis Frazier 10-0... Give me a break... Seriously... Marvis didn't have a Vasyl Lomachenko amateur background so you don't do that. Holmes tried to take it easy on 23-year-old Marvis. He hurt him badly in the 1st round and he furiously waved the referee in to stop it.. But the idiot didn't come in so Larry opened up to finish Marvis off and the ref finally ran in.. So Marvis got some money and it wasn't as big a disaster as it could have been.. So you get Marvis some good opponents and he's coming back very well and he's 16-1.. So who do you have him fight next? Mike Tyson!!! ... freakin' brilliant

So he doesn't fight for a year - okay it was a bad KO. then he takes a couple quick fights, no fights for 14 months and his career Is over at 28 with only 21 fights. WHY? .... Fernando Vargas was another guy who had brilliant talent. He got pushed into a title shot early and who gave him the steroids? A kid doesn't take PED's on his own, and his career was over very early ... Mike Tyson was the best managed fighter ever while D'Amato and Jacobs were alive.. 28 fights in 18 months and you're Heavyweight Champion at 20.. You can't do better than that.. They soon died though.

The worst managed boxers are unknown names because they were the worst managed boxers.

Kalan wrote:

Nile4000 wrote:[ Marvis Frazier had a certain limit to his sucess at Heavyweight. The elites would always beat him.

I don't see it that way because Marvis was well coached and terribly matched.. He had a lot of talent but he was put in way to deep to quickly. If managed right he could have become a very exceptional boxer.

He easily Joe Bugner in his 10th fight, but you don't go for Larry Holmes in your 11th fight.. You had Larry Holmes 44-0 vs Marvis Frazier 10-0... Give me a break... Seriously... Marvis didn't have a Vasyl Lomachenko amateur background so you don't do that. Holmes tried to take it easy on 23-year-old Marvis. He hurt him badly in the 1st round and he furiously waved the referee in to stop it.. But the idiot didn't come in so Larry opened up to finish Marvis off and the ref finally ran in.. So Marvis got some money and it wasn't as big a disaster as it could have been.. So you get Marvis some good opponents and he's coming back very well and he's 16-1.. So who do you have him fight next? Mike Tyson!!! ... freakin' brilliant

So he doesn't fight for a year - okay it was a bad KO. then he takes a couple quick fights, no fights for 14 months and his career Is over at 28 with only 21 fights. WHY? .... Fernando Vargas was another guy who had brilliant talent. He got pushed into a title shot early and who gave him the steroids? A kid doesn't take PED's on his own, and his career was over very early ... Mike Tyson was the best managed fighter ever while D'Amato and Jacobs were alive.. 28 fights in 18 months and you're Heavyweight Champion at 20.. You can't do better than that.. They soon died though.

I see your point,but even at his best, can't see see Marvis beating Witherspoon, Page, Thomas, or even Tubbs.

While having fairly good boxing skills, Marvis Frazier lacked the talent and durability to be a top fighter. Marvis did fine until facing top fighters such as Larry Holmes and Mike Tyson, both of whom beat Marvis in very short order. In retrospect, Marvis probably got the most out of his talent in compiling a record of 19 wins and 2 losses, even if he faced some less than stellar opposition much of the time.

- Chuck Johnston

Old bones Ian wrote:Alex Garcia's handlers turning down $500,000 to fight George Foreman, this is what they said at the time "They offered some money," Jacobs added, "but it wasn't enough. They got up around $500,000. Alex wants a million dollars to do this. Alex would knock George out. No doubt about it. He'd knock George Foreman out in two or three rounds. That's a fact. But against George, there is the possibility that Alex could lose. That is a possibility. The odds would be in George's favor. We don't want to put him in there with George Foreman and get Alex hurt or knocked out or beat for nothing."

in his next fight Garcia was knocked out cold by Mike Dixon and earnt $5000

Jacobs has a funny definition of 'nothing' = $500,000 - wish I was in a position to call that nothing.

badkatt wrote:bowe
a garcia
masquev
david reid
many many more

Maskaev, now that's an interesting case.

Fought a 21-0 fighter in his pro debut, and won by KO!

Was only 6-0 when stopped by 26-6 Oliver McCall.

I don't think anyone can top this. Look at who he fought in his second pro fight!

http://boxrec.com/boxer/2451

Cutman Scabbers wrote:I don't think anyone can top this. Look at who he fought in his second pro fight!

http://boxrec.com/boxer/2451

He got it tough his whole career! They started him hard and kept it going the whole way.

Eubank Jr is definitely working his way up as one of the worst managed..

Tomasino wrote:

Cutman Scabbers wrote:I don't think anyone can top this. Look at who he fought in his second pro fight!

http://boxrec.com/boxer/2451

He got it tough his whole career! They started him hard and kept it going the whole way.

I think he had fought a bunch of patsies in Guyana before he fought Watts and Hagler the wins just haven't been recorded on his Boxrec record. He was a '72 Olympian and then must have fought pro in Guyana 73-76. Not only was this Watts and Hagler they weren't young they had 30+ fights and these were feature bouts so Ford had to have had a record outside the USA.
But yes, crappy way to go :)

DaveyMac wrote:

Tomasino wrote:

Cutman Scabbers wrote:I don't think anyone can top this. Look at who he fought in his second pro fight!

http://boxrec.com/boxer/2451

He got it tough his whole career! They started him hard and kept it going the whole way.

I think he had fought a bunch of patsies in Guyana before he fought Watts and Hagler the wins just haven't been recorded on his Boxrec record. He was a '72 Olympian and then must have fought pro in Guyana 73-76. Not only was this Watts and Hagler they weren't young they had 30+ fights and these were feature bouts so Ford had to have had a record outside the USA.
But yes, crappy way to go :)

Pretty decent wins over Dave Green and Kirkland Laing

Michael olajide jnr imo