BoxRec

davie wrote:

watsupdoc87 wrote:

Boxerbeetle wrote:
I didn't say anything like that, I just asked how you knew Whyte wouldn't beat Fury. For all we know, Whyte could be the second best British heavyweight behind Joshua

so could sprott be by that logic i suppose

Which means Audley goes straight in as a re-entry at no1 if he laces the gloves up again.

Yes he can!

but then price should throw his name in the hat

Loftgroov wrote:AJ will smash the gary out of Martin.

Gary Cornish?

Horse wrote:

Loftgroov wrote:AJ will smash the gary out of Martin.

Gary Cornish?

Gary is a new one on me.

"Smash the Dillian....." perhaps ?

martinmrts wrote:

Horse wrote:

Loftgroov wrote:AJ will smash the gary out of Martin.

Gary Cornish?

Gary is a new one on me.

"Smash the Dillian....." perhaps ?

Rhyming slang. "Gary Glitter".

rd350lc wrote:

Boxerbeetle wrote:

rossij8 wrote:
Would be similar to Fury Chisora 2

Only if Whyte came in with an illness like Chisora did.

was that true ? I thought something looked badly wrong with Chisora that night but didn't hear any more about it and to be honest all of his perfomances sice the first Fury fight have been lucklustre .

Yup. From what I remember, it was leaked out of his camp a few days before the fight and the odds dropped massively on Fury, it was definitely discussed on here in the build-up.

Horse wrote:

gazza8 wrote:What do you base that on?

Joshua is unproven and was hurt by Whyte. Fury is the undisputed champion with a 72% KO rate.

Its embarrassing that novices like josh and martin are fighting for a so called world title. Its also convenient how ibf stripped fury then suddenly camp eddie gets one of his fighters a shot. Paper title..like he got for Quiggy. Bet he gets his missus cubic zirconia instead of diamonds! I really dont know why I keep following boxing,its more of a circus nowadays than ever

watsupdoc87 wrote:

Boxerbeetle wrote:

watsupdoc87 wrote:
your right the guy who just beat the champ for 10 years in his own back garden would get battered by whyte inside 3 rounds probably

I didn't say anything like that, I just asked how you knew Whyte wouldn't beat Fury. For all we know, Whyte could be the second best British heavyweight behind Joshua

so could sprott be by that logic i suppose

Not really. Its pretty obvious that he means that nobody really knows how good Whyte is or isn't, yet. So far he has only fought AJ, who himself is untested too. Can only guess at the minute how far either could go. Joshua could be the best, maybe he isn't. Whyte isn't as good as Josua but perhaps he is not that far behind him?

Sprott? Everybody knows exactly how good he is, was, isn't etc it's been proved time and again.

lillywhite14 wrote:

watsupdoc87 wrote:

Boxerbeetle wrote:
I didn't say anything like that, I just asked how you knew Whyte wouldn't beat Fury. For all we know, Whyte could be the second best British heavyweight behind Joshua

so could sprott be by that logic i suppose

Not really. Its pretty obvious that he means that nobody really knows how good Whyte is or isn't, yet. So far he has only fought AJ, who himself is untested too. Can only guess at the minute how far either could go. Joshua could be the best, maybe he isn't. Whyte isn't as good as Josua but perhaps he is not that far behind him?

Sprott? Everybody knows exactly how good he is, was, isn't etc it's been proved time and again.

That's exactly what I meant, although I was on a bit of a wind-up so didn't bother explaining myself very well

lillywhite14 wrote:

watsupdoc87 wrote:

Boxerbeetle wrote:
I didn't say anything like that, I just asked how you knew Whyte wouldn't beat Fury. For all we know, Whyte could be the second best British heavyweight behind Joshua

so could sprott be by that logic i suppose

Not really. Its pretty obvious that he means that nobody really knows how good Whyte is or isn't, yet. So far he has only fought AJ, who himself is untested too. Can only guess at the minute how far either could go. Joshua could be the best, maybe he isn't. Whyte isn't as good as Josua but perhaps he is not that far behind him?

Sprott? Everybody knows exactly how good he is, was, isn't etc it's been proved time and again.

so we should just reserve judgement on all fighters until theyve hit their peak and only then comment

watsupdoc87 wrote:

lillywhite14 wrote:

watsupdoc87 wrote:
so could sprott be by that logic i suppose

Not really. Its pretty obvious that he means that nobody really knows how good Whyte is or isn't, yet. So far he has only fought AJ, who himself is untested too. Can only guess at the minute how far either could go. Joshua could be the best, maybe he isn't. Whyte isn't as good as Josua but perhaps he is not that far behind him?

Sprott? Everybody knows exactly how good he is, was, isn't etc it's been proved time and again.

so we should just reserve judgement on all fighters until theyve hit their peak and only then comment

Ideally we should wait until 10 years after they retire before properly assessing them

Boxerbeetle wrote:

watsupdoc87 wrote:

lillywhite14 wrote:
Not really. Its pretty obvious that he means that nobody really knows how good Whyte is or isn't, yet. So far he has only fought AJ, who himself is untested too. Can only guess at the minute how far either could go. Joshua could be the best, maybe he isn't. Whyte isn't as good as Josua but perhaps he is not that far behind him?

Sprott? Everybody knows exactly how good he is, was, isn't etc it's been proved time and again.

so we should just reserve judgement on all fighters until theyve hit their peak and only then comment

Ideally we should wait until 10 years after they retire before properly assessing them

It's a good fight but he'll be viewed by most as a paper champion if he wins until he fights Fury. Hopefully he wins but I can just see the IBF churning out poor mandaotories for him to pound for another two years.

blanca wrote:Its embarrassing that novices like josh and martin are fighting for a so called world title. Its also convenient how ibf stripped fury then suddenly camp eddie gets one of his fighters a shot. Paper title..like he got for Quiggy. Bet he gets his missus cubic zirconia instead of diamonds! I really dont know why I keep following boxing,its more of a circus nowadays than ever

If it's such a 'Paper title', why is it so significant that a 'novice' is fighting for it? If anything, Hearn should be lauded for getting a fighter only 15 fights into his career a world title shot, and potentially pave the way for bigger and better fights with better fighters in the not so distant future!

SNG wrote:Lovely work by Eddie, not so sure about Joshua though, think it might be a bit too early.

Still don't understand this viewpoint. Too early for Charles Martin?

I would confidently pick Whyte over Martin.

Rob3_142 wrote:I just cannot see Martin getting close to Joshua. I fully expect it to be knock out in the first 6 rounds.

Charles Martin has found himself as world champion without fighting anyone. I mean he is literally so untested it's embarrassing. At least Joshua has been rocked by someone that we all agree that will probably be a top 20 fighter in the next 18 months, recovered, and gone on to win. Outside of that, Joshua's CV is still limited, just not as limited as Martin's. The south paw element however, will be interesting.

Also as lightweight as the IBF title is, it is perfect for Joshua though as the IBF rankings are generally pretty weak, and there shouldn't be really anyone for AJ to worry about. Good position to learn his trade further before tackling the likes of Fury/Wilder/Klitchko/Haye.

That's a massive assumption to make about Whyte. Glazkov is much better than anyone Joshua or Whyte have faced yet.

Also, and this is just directed at you, why are we all so happy for Joshua to win the title and then have soft defences? We give grief to other champions when they gave soft defences. He's as ready as he's going to be so if he wins the title then after his mandatory why not go on and try to take out Haye, Wilder and Fury in that order. He could be an extremely wealthy guy who has sold 80,000 tickets at wembley with huge ppv numbers, have beaten every contender out there and be considered the no1 fighter on the planet.

Does anybody really think fighting IBF mandatories is anywhere near as thrilling? Remember, we're fans not promoters or managers!

freddydoesdallas wrote:

Rob3_142 wrote:I just cannot see Martin getting close to Joshua. I fully expect it to be knock out in the first 6 rounds.

Charles Martin has found himself as world champion without fighting anyone. I mean he is literally so untested it's embarrassing. At least Joshua has been rocked by someone that we all agree that will probably be a top 20 fighter in the next 18 months, recovered, and gone on to win. Outside of that, Joshua's CV is still limited, just not as limited as Martin's. The south paw element however, will be interesting.

Also as lightweight as the IBF title is, it is perfect for Joshua though as the IBF rankings are generally pretty weak, and there shouldn't be really anyone for AJ to worry about. Good position to learn his trade further before tackling the likes of Fury/Wilder/Klitchko/Haye.

That's a massive assumption to make about Whyte. Glazkov is much better than anyone Joshua or Whyte have faced yet.

Also, and this is just directed at you, why are we all so happy for Joshua to win the title and then have soft defences? We give grief to other champions when they gave soft defences. He's as ready as he's going to be so if he wins the title then after his mandatory why not go on and try to take out Haye, Wilder and Fury in that order. He could be an extremely wealthy guy who has sold 80,000 tickets at wembley with huge ppv numbers, have beaten every contender out there and be considered the no1 fighter on the planet.

Does anybody really think fighting IBF mandatories is anywhere near as thrilling? Remember, we're fans not promoters or managers!

Well first and foremost, I think it's fair to say that I could beat Glazkov if he's going to keel over with a knee injury in the third round, so I'm sorry but he just does not count as a formidable opponent. Had he been uninjured, then I would rightly agree.

Second, obviously the jury is still out on Whyte as to whether he is potentially top 20 material, but I personally think he'll be there and there about in good time. I think he's as good as, if not better than Chisora. Providing he tidies up his technique, and is guided right, then I expect him to be top 15. I'm not the only person who shares this view.

Third. Is this directed towards me? Or everyone? Your English is confusing. Joshua is a fan favourite, he has been since he won the Olympics in 2012, obviously people are going to want him to do well. He quietly goes about his business, doesn't call people names, call people out, just has the sole intention to show his mettle in the ring. So far he's conducted himself well, knocked everyone out, and each fight stepped up the quality of his opponent.

Finally, Anthony Joshua, nor his management team/promoter decide who is in the IBF rankings. I'm not sure there's such thing as a hard mandatory in the IBF (once again, not AJ's fault), but what it does do though is allow Joshua to continue to learn his trade, cut his teeth, and manage his progress at the correct speed. If you think 'he's as ready as he's going to be', you obviously didn't watch the Whyte fight and see he still is quite raw, and has a lot to work on. You need to remember the guy is still 15-0. Not 30-0. This is the perfect opportunity to win a World title, while continuing the journey. The big unification fights will come before too soon.

freddydoesdallas wrote:

Rob3_142 wrote: That's a massive assumption to make about Whyte. Glazkov is much better than anyone Joshua or Whyte have faced yet.

Also, and this is just directed at you, why are we all so happy for Joshua to win the title and then have soft defences? We give grief to other champions when they gave soft defences. He's as ready as he's going to be so if he wins the title then after his mandatory why not go on and try to take out Haye, Wilder and Fury in that order. He could be an extremely wealthy guy who has sold 80,000 tickets at wembley with huge ppv numbers, have beaten every contender out there and be considered the no1 fighter on the planet.

Does anybody really think fighting IBF mandatories is anywhere near as thrilling? Remember, we're fans not promoters or managers!

Well first and foremost, I think it's fair to say that I could beat Glazkov if he's going to keel over with a knee injury in the third round, so I'm sorry but he just does not count as a formidable opponent. Had he been uninjured, then I would rightly agree.

Second, obviously the jury is still out on Whyte as to whether he is potentially top 20 material, but I personally think he'll be there and there about in good time. I think he's as good as, if not better than Chisora. Providing he tidies up his technique, and is guided right, then I expect him to be top 15. I'm not the only person who shares this view.

Third. Is this directed towards me? Or everyone? Your English is confusing. Joshua is a fan favourite, he has been since he won the Olympics in 2012, obviously people are going to want him to do well. He quietly goes about his business, doesn't call people names, call people out, just has the sole intention to show his mettle in the ring. So far he's conducted himself well, knocked everyone out, and each fight stepped up the quality of his opponent.

Finally, Anthony Joshua, nor his management team/promoter decide who is in the IBF rankings. I'm not sure there's such thing as a hard mandatory in the IBF (once again, not AJ's fault), but what it does do though is allow Joshua to continue to learn his trade, cut his teeth, and manage his progress at the correct speed. If you think 'he's as ready as he's going to be', you obviously didn't watch the Whyte fight and see he still is quite raw, and has a lot to work on. You need to remember the guy is still 15-0. Not 30-0. This is the perfect opportunity to win a World title, while continuing the journey. The big unification fights will come before too soon.

Sorry, yes that was my error. It was meant to say 'isn't directed at you'.

Whether you think that or not about Whyte it is still quite an assumption to make about a domestic fighter who hasn't beaten anyone of note in order to give a bit more credit to another fighter. Like you say, he needs work and nothing is guaranteed in boxing. I think most of us thought Price would have a decent career as a heavy and nowhere near the position he is in now!

I've nothing against Joshua at all and agree with what you say about him in that third section. I'll give it a go to buy tickets for his next fight.

I do think he's going to be as ready now as he is in a years time. Fighting soft defences against lesser opponents will continue to reinforce his weaknesses. He's never going to be perfect so he'll just have to adapt based on taking those couple of shots against Whyte. The others have their weaknesses too, Wilder & Fury have shown they can be put down and hurt, Haye will be limited by his size etc etc.

I don't care if he's 15-0 or 30-0. He could be undisputed heavyweight champion of the world by fight 20! Does that not get you excited? Do fights against Fury/Wilder/Haye not get you excited and buzzing at the thought of huge fight nights in the UK? I'm talking as a fan, i know all the politics and safe management stuff are important to the promotional teams but i'm sick of it. If Joshua is going to be the best in the world then he could pretty much prove it in 5 fights:

Martin - IBF Title
Haye - Early Summer
Wilder - September(ish)
Povetkin - Early 2017
Fury - Summer 2017

How brilliant would it be to see him go through a run like that?!?!

freddydoesdallas wrote:

freddydoesdallas wrote:

Rob3_142 wrote: That's a massive assumption to make about Whyte. Glazkov is much better than anyone Joshua or Whyte have faced yet.

Also, and this is just directed at you, why are we all so happy for Joshua to win the title and then have soft defences? We give grief to other champions when they gave soft defences. He's as ready as he's going to be so if he wins the title then after his mandatory why not go on and try to take out Haye, Wilder and Fury in that order. He could be an extremely wealthy guy who has sold 80,000 tickets at wembley with huge ppv numbers, have beaten every contender out there and be considered the no1 fighter on the planet.

Does anybody really think fighting IBF mandatories is anywhere near as thrilling? Remember, we're fans not promoters or managers!

Well first and foremost, I think it's fair to say that I could beat Glazkov if he's going to keel over with a knee injury in the third round, so I'm sorry but he just does not count as a formidable opponent. Had he been uninjured, then I would rightly agree.

Second, obviously the jury is still out on Whyte as to whether he is potentially top 20 material, but I personally think he'll be there and there about in good time. I think he's as good as, if not better than Chisora. Providing he tidies up his technique, and is guided right, then I expect him to be top 15. I'm not the only person who shares this view.

Third. Is this directed towards me? Or everyone? Your English is confusing. Joshua is a fan favourite, he has been since he won the Olympics in 2012, obviously people are going to want him to do well. He quietly goes about his business, doesn't call people names, call people out, just has the sole intention to show his mettle in the ring. So far he's conducted himself well, knocked everyone out, and each fight stepped up the quality of his opponent.

Finally, Anthony Joshua, nor his management team/promoter decide who is in the IBF rankings. I'm not sure there's such thing as a hard mandatory in the IBF (once again, not AJ's fault), but what it does do though is allow Joshua to continue to learn his trade, cut his teeth, and manage his progress at the correct speed. If you think 'he's as ready as he's going to be', you obviously didn't watch the Whyte fight and see he still is quite raw, and has a lot to work on. You need to remember the guy is still 15-0. Not 30-0. This is the perfect opportunity to win a World title, while continuing the journey. The big unification fights will come before too soon.

Sorry, yes that was my error. It was meant to say 'isn't directed at you'.

Whether you think that or not about Whyte it is still quite an assumption to make about a domestic fighter who hasn't beaten anyone of note in order to give a bit more credit to another fighter. Like you say, he needs work and nothing is guaranteed in boxing. I think most of us thought Price would have a decent career as a heavy and nowhere near the position he is in now!

I've nothing against Joshua at all and agree with what you say about him in that third section. I'll give it a go to buy tickets for his next fight.

I do think he's going to be as ready now as he is in a years time. Fighting soft defences against lesser opponents will continue to reinforce his weaknesses. He's never going to be perfect so he'll just have to adapt based on taking those couple of shots against Whyte. The others have their weaknesses too, Wilder & Fury have shown they can be put down and hurt, Haye will be limited by his size etc etc.

I don't care if he's 15-0 or 30-0. He could be undisputed heavyweight champion of the world by fight 20! Does that not get you excited? Do fights against Fury/Wilder/Haye not get you excited and buzzing at the thought of huge fight nights in the UK? I'm talking as a fan, i know all the politics and safe management stuff are important to the promotional teams but i'm sick of it. If Joshua is going to be the best in the world then he could pretty much prove it in 5 fights:

Martin - IBF Title
Haye - Early Summer
Wilder - September(ish)
Povetkin - Early 2017
Fury - Summer 2017

How brilliant would it be to see him go through a run like that?!?!

I'm very excited about Anthony Joshua, have been since he hit the scene, and have watched all his fights with the greatest of interest, but the last thing I'm going to do is wish the world away.

I think 'fighting soft defences against lesser opponents' is a bit of a vague statement. He's not going to go back to fighting British level fights after the Martin fight. Every fight after that will be a world level fight (which by the way he hasn't even done yet). Okay fine, the fighters on the IBF ranking list are not necessarily setting the boxing fraternity alight, but they're solid world level fighters which will continue to aid Joshua in his education. These fights will most certainly not 'reinforce his weaknesses' - that's just ridiculous. Anthony Joshua in his last fight fought Dillian Whyte and learned more in that fight than he had in the previous 14. Where would you rank Whyte in the list of possible opponents? Did that fight turn him into a worse fighter? Will fighting Martin making him a worse fighter?

Joshua will take on your list at one time or another (of course unless Haye retires before that happens), but there is definitely a process which you need to understand. There's a fine balance to picking the right route to success, either be that in winning world championships or earning the biggest purses. I personally believe that Joshua could fight a plastic bag, and they'd still sell out Wembley, so as far as I'm concerned (as I'm sure is the same for his management team) they'll concentrate on winning the world championship belts, and those mega blockbuster fights will come.

The other side of it is that if he holds belts, he will have mandatory defences, and if he's in ranking lists he'll have title eliminator matches, so fighting your wishlist becomes a little bit more tricky. Also Joshua is not the only person after these belts, Joseph Parker is up and coming and in the IBF rankings, Dominic Breazeale is also unbeaten and hungry, while Ortiz is bettering everything in his path. Other people have mandatory shots at Fury which have to be answered.

It's simple. If Joshua blows Martin away in April then there maybe a call for Joshua to call out the likes of Haye or Parker, and it'll rocket him up the rankings also. But if he limps past Martin or even gets beat, then his team will have to reassess, and maybe take an intermediate fight before a big September showdown with someone.

Rob3_142 wrote: I'm very excited about Anthony Joshua, have been since he hit the scene, and have watched all his fights with the greatest of interest, but the last thing I'm going to do is wish the world away.

I think 'fighting soft defences against lesser opponents' is a bit of a vague statement. He's not going to go back to fighting British level fights after the Martin fight. Every fight after that will be a world level fight (which by the way he hasn't even done yet). Okay fine, the fighters on the IBF ranking list are not necessarily setting the boxing fraternity alight, but they're solid world level fighters which will continue to aid Joshua in his education. These fights will most certainly not 'reinforce his weaknesses' - that's just ridiculous. Anthony Joshua in his last fight fought Dillian Whyte and learned more in that fight than he had in the previous 14. Where would you rank Whyte in the list of possible opponents? Did that fight turn him into a worse fighter? Will fighting Martin making him a worse fighter?

Joshua will take on your list at one time or another (of course unless Haye retires before that happens), but there is definitely a process which you need to understand. There's a fine balance to picking the right route to success, either be that in winning world championships or earning the biggest purses. I personally believe that Joshua could fight a plastic bag, and they'd still sell out Wembley, so as far as I'm concerned (as I'm sure is the same for his management team) they'll concentrate on winning the world championship belts, and those mega blockbuster fights will come.

The other side of it is that if he holds belts, he will have mandatory defences, and if he's in ranking lists he'll have title eliminator matches, so fighting your wishlist becomes a little bit more tricky. Also Joshua is not the only person after these belts, Joseph Parker is up and coming and in the IBF rankings, Dominic Breazeale is also unbeaten and hungry, while Ortiz is bettering everything in his path. Other people have mandatory shots at Fury which have to be answered.

It's simple. If Joshua blows Martin away in April then there maybe a call for Joshua to call out the likes of Haye or Parker, and it'll rocket him up the rankings also. But if he limps past Martin or even gets beat, then his team will have to reassess, and maybe take an intermediate fight before a big September showdown with someone.

I get the process but what i don't get is fans wanting to follow it. That's the stuff promoters and managers force feed us to try and keep our expectations in check. The last thing the sport needs is for fans to be declaring that we think fighter X should fight fighter A, B or C before even contemplating a fight with fighter Y or Z.

C'mon man, let's live a little and call for the mega fights one after the other. Do we really want the heavyweight division to go the way of the middleweight division where we have the main champion going one way and then a couple of paper champions more than happy to sit back and defend their belts for a while waiting to see what happens?

BJS & Canelo should be knocking down GGG's door to fight him. Not making ridiculous financial claims to make sure it doesn't happen and protecting their bauble

Quigg or Frampton should be after Rigondeaux once they've had their fight.

Of course their are risks to it and they have things to weigh up but as a fan i want to see them fight asap!!!

Not seen too much of Martin, saw his 'title-winning' fight but it was hard to garner anything from it. End of the day though, looking at his record he does have power, so he is a danger to Joshua! He hasn't really fought anyone but then neither has Joshua really - depends how much credit you actually give to beating old man Kevin Johnson, padded record Gary Cornish and then British level (so far) Dillian Whyte who gave him more than enough problems. This is a good fight, I'm happy they're stepping him up, even if Martin isn't much he's better than most of what he's faced already.

Don't really understand the talk about Martin being an unknown quantity and this implication that he could surprise people, or even that Joshua isn't 'ready' for him.

IMO we've seen enough to know that he isn't very good. And we didn't need much.

The wild swings, the head in the air, the taking ten rounds to dispatch Zumbano Love who Joshua then detonated in 2.

There are also little clues here and there you can glean about these guys who don't look very good shakes on grainy celluloid which isn't deemed comprehensive enough, and you're trying to work out if it's for a reason.

The fact he was put in with a fair few 0-1 guys and extreme novices, or guys with short winning records against total novices that tells you his handlers weren't exactly ready to have him burst out of the traps. The sort of guys for whom, when trying to find a link back to a tough, well known trial horse, a shot name, or ANYONE who can give a reliable gauge of ability, tends to be a six degrees of separation exercise. And then you find someone who looks vaguely familiar on their record and he's been done in one by Joey UnAbell.

Joshua early KO is the outcome here.

Riddick Blowe wrote:Don't really understand the talk about Martin being an unknown quantity and this implication that he could surprise people, or even that Joshua isn't 'ready' for him.

IMO we've seen enough to know that he isn't very good. And we didn't need much.

The wild swings, the head in the air, the taking ten rounds to dispatch Zumbano Love who Joshua then detonated in 2.

There are also little clues here and there you can glean about these guys who don't look very good shakes on grainy celluloid which isn't deemed comprehensive enough, and you're trying to work out if it's for a reason.

The fact he was put in with a fair few 0-1 guys and extreme novices, or guys with short winning records against total novices that tells you his handlers weren't exactly ready to have him burst out of the traps. The sort of guys for whom, when trying to find a link back to a tough, well known trial horse, a shot name, or ANYONE who can give a reliable gauge of ability, tends to be a six degrees of separation exercise. And then you find someone who looks vaguely familiar on their record and he's been done in one by Joey UnAbell.

Joshua early KO is the outcome here.

Sounds like Joshua.

Joshua fight Charles Martin for the IBF Heavyweight title, few points to make on that.

1. Definitely a step up to "elite" level too soon. AJ just is not ready to be fighting the likes of Fury, Klitschko or Povetkin.

2. It's a great opportunity to become a World Heavyweight Champion, and had he refused it - who knows when another crack at a World Title would be coming along, and where he would have to go to get it (eg Germany or USA)

3. Charles Martin? It doesn't come much easier in my mind to attain such a prestigious honour - Martin remind me of a Bermane Stiverne - a fair fighter, but won't have a lengthy title reign and will be quickly forgotten by the average punter on the street.

Joshua will win this with consummate ease, and become just as marked as Martin has been. Still not convinced he's ready for that, but we'll wait and see. Hope I'm proved wrong.