BoxRec

man wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Clearly they are going to try and execute a gameplan that involves Wlad fighting on the inside, and taking the fight to Fury - that isn't really in Wlad's nature, so is going to take tactical adjustments.

Personally I think Wlad is too cautious to achieve that, but obviously, they want him to try doing so against men as big or bigger than Fury.

my naive opinion is that there is one thing
and one thing only that can turn this around
for wlad and that is someone like teddy atlas
who doesn't talk tactics and reach and so on
and so forth, but makes him ... fight. as he
did with michael moorer in his championship
winning bout.

i am not advocating that tactics are not an
important part of boxing but in this one they
are not the crucial thing. he will not get past
fury's reach if he is not willing to get hit. but
this is the very thing he has been successful
in avoiding for more than a decade. so he must
enter a state of mind where being hit is part of
the equation and not the end of it.

i would be very surprised if a series of technical
adjustments would make a difference. wlad has
to find that famous "it" within himself and the
only way to do so is brutal honesty without
tactical sugar coating in camp.

The young beatable Wlad used to just go in there and bust people up, but at 40, and years of being cautious, I can't see it either.

Having said that, if Fury fights like he did, Wlad would not need to land much to win a decision.

Undefeated49-0 wrote:I hope not. Neither of them did much of nothing and it was probably the worse HW fight I've ever seen, a total borefest.

I think that was all Wlad's fault though. His muscle memory is all messed up at this point. He cannot throw more than two punches at a time nowadays without grabbing and hugging his opponent. I think Fury would have been happy to stand there and bang with him but Wlad would not do it.

gregor wrote:Hope the fight won't happen. I can see more action in one round of Ike-Tua than in whole Fury-Wlad fight. I really do not get why the are getting such ridiculous paydays. I mean, I know TV are paying most of it, but that means that either TV management keeps making completely wrong business decisions for years (as this is not the first awful fight by Wlad)... or there are actually somewhere people willing to watch it.

Why are you hating on their pay? This never makes sense to me when people do this. If you think it is so easy get in the ring and try it out. See how easy it is or how it goes for ya. Then talk about the pay. Don't forget that every time a man steps in the ring he is putting his life on the line.

Lancenix wrote:

Undefeated49-0 wrote:I hope not. Neither of them did much of nothing and it was probably the worse HW fight I've ever seen, a total borefest.

I think that was all Wlad's fault though. His muscle memory is all messed up at this point. He cannot throw more than two punches at a time nowadays without grabbing and hugging his opponent. I think Fury would have been happy to stand there and bang with him but Wlad would not do it.

If Fury stood and traded with Wlad, it would be a short fight. Wlad isn't shot, Fury made him hesitate by being unpredictable and using angles.

Stand right in front of Wlad and he'll soon remember where that right hand is.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

Lancenix wrote:

Undefeated49-0 wrote:I hope not. Neither of them did much of nothing and it was probably the worse HW fight I've ever seen, a total borefest.

I think that was all Wlad's fault though. His muscle memory is all messed up at this point. He cannot throw more than two punches at a time nowadays without grabbing and hugging his opponent. I think Fury would have been happy to stand there and bang with him but Wlad would not do it.

If Fury stood and traded with Wlad, it would be a short fight. Wlad isn't shot, Fury made him hesitate by being unpredictable and using angles.

Stand right in front of Wlad and he'll soon remember where that right hand is.

I don't know man. You figure Wlad knew he was way down on the cards and yet still he could not let his hands go at all. Fury was right in front of him and he just wanted to hug. Also, Wlad does not know how to fight on the inside at all. When pressed he hugs and does not throw any punches. Trust me, I would love to see Wlad bounce back but I just cannot see it unless he lands a big one. If it goes to decision again, Fury wins. Late in that fight when Wlad turned his back to Tyson and got blasted I actually felt very sorry for him and his eroded skills.

I said before that after his surprisingly good performance against Pulev the Jennings fights demonstrated that Wlad was on the way out. His performance against Fury was just bizarre.
I didn't follow any news so I don't know what the hold up is about the rematch but the last 2 fights have shown that Wlads isn't ripening like good wine. He needs to get a move on, or call it quits. I kinda suspect that since he became a dad he has too much at stake and to loose to get in the ring and pull the trigger.
So as much as I like Wladimir and was able to live in my fanboy bubble that ignored how depressingly boring snoozefests most of his fights were, I don't see him, nor do I want him to come back. 40 is a good age to retire. He must have earned obscene amounts of money, he a has a good looking young woman, is a father now, he cemented a solid legacy of title fights, defenses, belts held and length of his reign. Like his style or not, he can stay retired as an all time great with nothing left to prove or achieve.

It does the division good though if he stays out of boxing, with the WBC, IBF and regular WBA titles up for grabs now we see some more fights between evenly matched fighters in the future, at least I hope so. I'll admit, some of the title bouts that didn't include the Klitschkos were and now are a little questionable, but with an abundance of title fights, also thanks to the WBA with the the Super, regular and interim title thrown in the mix, there is some serious competition again. I mean even the one trick pony Haye is back as he knows he has good chances to knock largely untested fighters like Browne or Martin out. He wouldn't ever fight Fury or Wilder though, the first would be a repeat of the fight against Wlad and Wilder is too likely to knock him out.

kaiserbill wrote:

gregor wrote:Hope the fight won't happen. I can see more action in one round of Ike-Tua than in whole Fury-Wlad fight. I really do not get why the are getting such ridiculous paydays. I mean, I know TV are paying most of it, but that means that either TV management keeps making completely wrong business decisions for years (as this is not the first awful fight by Wlad)... or there are actually somewhere people willing to watch it.

Jeez. Then don't watch it. Simple.
Nobody is holding a gun to your head.
Other people will want to watch it. I will.

No problem with it, I was not going to watch anyway (maybe highlights next day)... but still I'm just curious what you find interesting there. Unless you are Ukrainian/British/German

Lancenix wrote:Why are you hating on their pay? This never makes sense to me when people do this. If you think it is so easy get in the ring and try it out. See how easy it is or how it goes for ya. Then talk about the pay. Don't forget that every time a man steps in the ring he is putting his life on the line.

There is no need for me to be professional boxer to see if the fight is good or not (and BTW I was an amateur). The fight was neither good technically (one guy just struggling against opponent who turned out to be higher than him), nor exciting (with more "active" fighter landing roughly 7 punches per round). No matter how hard and how long they were training. If you get badly prepared dish in a restaurant, it won't be helped by the number of stars or chef certificates

gregor wrote:

kaiserbill wrote:

gregor wrote:Hope the fight won't happen. I can see more action in one round of Ike-Tua than in whole Fury-Wlad fight. I really do not get why the are getting such ridiculous paydays. I mean, I know TV are paying most of it, but that means that either TV management keeps making completely wrong business decisions for years (as this is not the first awful fight by Wlad)... or there are actually somewhere people willing to watch it.

Jeez. Then don't watch it. Simple.
Nobody is holding a gun to your head.
Other people will want to watch it. I will.

No problem with it, I was not going to watch anyway (maybe highlights next day)... but still I'm just curious what you find interesting there. Unless you are Ukrainian/British/German

Lancenix wrote:Why are you hating on their pay? This never makes sense to me when people do this. If you think it is so easy get in the ring and try it out. See how easy it is or how it goes for ya. Then talk about the pay. Don't forget that every time a man steps in the ring he is putting his life on the line.

There is no need for me to be professional boxer to see if the fight is good or not (and BTW I was an amateur). The fight was neither good technically (one guy just struggling against opponent who turned out to be higher than him), nor exciting (with more "active" fighter landing roughly 7 punches per round). No matter how hard and how long they were training. If you get badly prepared dish in a restaurant, it won't be helped by the number of stars or chef certificates

I sure as hell will not pay to watch these two fight again, it was dull as dishwater last time. Sure, it was surprising Fury won, but as entertainment, it was virtually non-existent.

Nightgaunt wrote:I said before that after his surprisingly good performance against Pulev the Jennings fights demonstrated that Wlad was on the way out. His performance against Fury was just bizarre.
I didn't follow any news so I don't know what the hold up is about the rematch but the last 2 fights have shown that Wlads isn't ripening like good wine. He needs to get a move on, or call it quits. I kinda suspect that since he became a dad he has too much at stake and to loose to get in the ring and pull the trigger.
So as much as I like Wladimir and was able to live in my fanboy bubble that ignored how depressingly boring snoozefests most of his fights were, I don't see him, nor do I want him to come back. 40 is a good age to retire. He must have earned obscene amounts of money, he a has a good looking young woman, is a father now, he cemented a solid legacy of title fights, defenses, belts held and length of his reign. Like his style or not, he can stay retired as an all time great with nothing left to prove or achieve.

It does the division good though if he stays out of boxing, with the WBC, IBF and regular WBA titles up for grabs now we see some more fights between evenly matched fighters in the future, at least I hope so. I'll admit, some of the title bouts that didn't include the Klitschkos were and now are a little questionable, but with an abundance of title fights, also thanks to the WBA with the the Super, regular and interim title thrown in the mix, there is some serious competition again. I mean even the one trick pony Haye is back as he knows he has good chances to knock largely untested fighters like Browne or Martin out. He wouldn't ever fight Fury or Wilder though, the first would be a repeat of the fight against Wlad and Wilder is too likely to knock him out.

Your first two paragraphs is what I have been saying for a while now. His wife was also extremely depressed and in a clinic recently. Someone said to me here that that means nothing. I disagree completely. I agree with you. It means a lot, his priorities have changed and that may be all. This fight should be further along than where it is. I still think it will happen but only 60-40 that it will.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

gregor wrote:

kaiserbill wrote:
Jeez. Then don't watch it. Simple.
Nobody is holding a gun to your head.
Other people will want to watch it. I will.

No problem with it, I was not going to watch anyway (maybe highlights next day)... but still I'm just curious what you find interesting there. Unless you are Ukrainian/British/German

Lancenix wrote:Why are you hating on their pay? This never makes sense to me when people do this. If you think it is so easy get in the ring and try it out. See how easy it is or how it goes for ya. Then talk about the pay. Don't forget that every time a man steps in the ring he is putting his life on the line.

There is no need for me to be professional boxer to see if the fight is good or not (and BTW I was an amateur). The fight was neither good technically (one guy just struggling against opponent who turned out to be higher than him), nor exciting (with more "active" fighter landing roughly 7 punches per round). No matter how hard and how long they were training. If you get badly prepared dish in a restaurant, it won't be helped by the number of stars or chef certificates

I sure as hell will not pay to watch these two fight again, it was dull as dishwater last time. Sure, it was surprising Fury won, but as entertainment, it was virtually non-existent.

Their pay will be based upon a number of factors and whatever they make good for them.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:
I sure as hell will not pay to watch these two fight again, it was dull as dishwater last time. Sure, it was surprising Fury won, but as entertainment, it was virtually non-existent.

I bet the rematch will be the opposite.

x2x wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:
I sure as hell will not pay to watch these two fight again, it was dull as dishwater last time. Sure, it was surprising Fury won, but as entertainment, it was virtually non-existent.

I bet the rematch will be the opposite.

They want the fighters to be paid after the fight based upon its' level of excitement.

gregor wrote:

kaiserbill wrote:

gregor wrote:Hope the fight won't happen. I can see more action in one round of Ike-Tua than in whole Fury-Wlad fight. I really do not get why the are getting such ridiculous paydays. I mean, I know TV are paying most of it, but that means that either TV management keeps making completely wrong business decisions for years (as this is not the first awful fight by Wlad)... or there are actually somewhere people willing to watch it.

Jeez. Then don't watch it. Simple.
Nobody is holding a gun to your head.
Other people will want to watch it. I will.

No problem with it, I was not going to watch anyway (maybe highlights next day)... but still I'm just curious what you find interesting there. Unless you are Ukrainian/British/German

What do I find interesting? And why will I watch it?

For the same reasons I watched when an ageing long term champ Larry Holmes exercised the rematch against Michael Spinks.
Or when Lewis exercised the return against Rahman.
Or when Holyfield exercised the return against Riddick Bowe.
Or when Mike Tyson exercised the return against Holyfield.
Or when Holyfield and Lewis met for the 2nd rematch.
Or when Ruiz exercised the return against Holyfield
Or why Weaver exercised his return against Dokes.
Or when an ageing Ali exercised his rematch against Leon Spinks.

or, before I was born, the reason why I've watched the video of:
Sonny Liston exercising his return match against Cassius Clay
Floyd Patterson exercising his return match against Sonny Liston.
Floyd Patterson exercising his return match against Ingemar Johansson.

etc etc ....stretching back all the way to when Jack Dempsey exercised his rematch against Gene Tunney.



We have a brief moment on this planet before we get shipped off into a wooden box.
I like boxing. I have no particular hate or love for particular fighters that many do here, to the point of bending statistics. I find that a bit weird.
When a long term heavyweight champ has been defeated, and exercises a rematch, of course I'll watch.

Oiky wrote:in my opinion i see joshua as just a knockout waiting to happen
i think parker will surpass him.

What on earth makes you think that Parker will surpass Joshua?

Rob3_142 wrote:

Oiky wrote:in my opinion i see joshua as just a knockout waiting to happen
i think parker will surpass him.

What on earth makes you think that Parker will surpass Joshua?

joshua is a KO waiting to happen

Oiky wrote:

Rob3_142 wrote:

Oiky wrote:in my opinion i see joshua as just a knockout waiting to happen
i think parker will surpass him.

What on earth makes you think that Parker will surpass Joshua?

joshua is a KO waiting to happen

Erm......you know you just repeated your previous message?

Rob3_142 wrote:

Oiky wrote:

Rob3_142 wrote:
What on earth makes you think that Parker will surpass Joshua?

joshua is a KO waiting to happen

Erm......you know you just repeated your previous message?

yup, theres your answer then, twice.

the hype around joshua will eventually end in a "what was all the fuss about" manner in my opinion, some can already see it and many many can't.

fairplay if he does make it i'll give him all the respect and would be great to see another english heavy being a world beater and being at the top but i don't think thats going to happen at all

Oiky wrote:

Rob3_142 wrote:

Oiky wrote:in my opinion i see joshua as just a knockout waiting to happen
i think parker will surpass him.

What on earth makes you think that Parker will surpass Joshua?

joshua is a KO waiting to happen

All boxers are, whats your point?

Oiky wrote:

Rob3_142 wrote:

Oiky wrote: joshua is a KO waiting to happen

Erm......you know you just repeated your previous message?

yup, theres your answer then, twice.

the hype around joshua will eventually end in a "what was all the fuss about" manner in my opinion, some can already see it and many many can't.

fairplay if he does make it i'll give him all the respect and would be great to see another english heavy being a world beater and being at the top but i don't think thats going to happen at all

I don't want to say you sound like a complete moron.......but......

Okay let me start again. My original question was;

What on earth makes you think that Parker will surpass Joshua?

Your answer was;

joshua is a KO waiting to happen

See where you went wrong?

Secondly, there is as much hype surrounding Joshua as there is Parker, but many will agree that Joshua has been tested, and stepped up his level appropriately to his current career status better than Parker. Joshua may well get knocked out one day, there isn't many that have gone through their careers in the HW division who have not. But then I'm not exactly sure what that proves...

Rob3_142 wrote:

Oiky wrote:

Rob3_142 wrote:
Erm......you know you just repeated your previous message?

yup, theres your answer then, twice.

the hype around joshua will eventually end in a "what was all the fuss about" manner in my opinion, some can already see it and many many can't.

fairplay if he does make it i'll give him all the respect and would be great to see another english heavy being a world beater and being at the top but i don't think thats going to happen at all

I don't want to say you sound like a complete moron.......but......

Okay let me start again. My original question was;

What on earth makes you think that Parker will surpass Joshua?

Your answer was;

joshua is a KO waiting to happen

See where you went wrong?

Secondly, there is as much hype surrounding Joshua as there is Parker, but many will agree that Joshua has been tested, and stepped up his level appropriately to his current career status better than Parker. Joshua may well get knocked out one day, there isn't many that have gone through their careers in the HW division who have not. But then I'm not exactly sure what that proves...

feel free to say i sound like a complete moron if you want, its an internet forum, i don't take it seriously and i feel parker will emerge the more complete of the two, i'm not talking about an old once great joshua getting KOed in the future by a young hungry contender im talking about a joshua in the next 2-3year getting KOed and not rising up to where people think he is going to go. i feel parker will be too quick for joshua aswell.

AJ may be a big physical specimen but you can't put musles on the chin, AJ didn't recover well vs Whyte like some are saying. A hungrier more complete fighter would of got him out of there, AJ didn't recover well whyte just didn't/couldln't capitalize on it. i like whyte though. not only is parker quicker than AJ he is also a heavy hitter. a nightmare for someone like AJ who has a gammy chin. i also feel joshua is rather tensed up stiff and a little bit robotic in how he carries himself around the ring, which isn't going to help at all is it. its all speculation isn't it, i've my opinion you've yours

Oiky wrote:

Rob3_142 wrote:

Oiky wrote: yup, theres your answer then, twice.

the hype around joshua will eventually end in a "what was all the fuss about" manner in my opinion, some can already see it and many many can't.

fairplay if he does make it i'll give him all the respect and would be great to see another english heavy being a world beater and being at the top but i don't think thats going to happen at all

I don't want to say you sound like a complete moron.......but......

Okay let me start again. My original question was;

What on earth makes you think that Parker will surpass Joshua?

Your answer was;

joshua is a KO waiting to happen

See where you went wrong?

Secondly, there is as much hype surrounding Joshua as there is Parker, but many will agree that Joshua has been tested, and stepped up his level appropriately to his current career status better than Parker. Joshua may well get knocked out one day, there isn't many that have gone through their careers in the HW division who have not. But then I'm not exactly sure what that proves...

feel free to say i sound like a complete moron if you want, its an internet forum, i don't take it seriously and i feel parker will emerge the more complete of the two, i'm not talking about an old once great joshua getting KOed in the future by a young hungry contender im talking about a joshua in the next 2-3year getting KOed and not rising up to where people think he is going to go. i feel parker will be too quick for joshua aswell.

AJ may be a big physical specimen but you can't put musles on the chin, AJ didn't recover well vs Whyte like some are saying. A hungrier more complete fighter would of got him out of there, AJ didn't recover well whyte just didn't/couldln't capitalize on it. i like whyte though. not only is parker quicker than AJ he is also a heavy hitter. a nightmare for someone like AJ who has a gammy chin. i also feel joshua is rather tensed up stiff and a little bit robotic in how he carries himself around the ring, which isn't going to help at all is it. its all speculation isn't it, i've my opinion you've yours

Who are these hungry and complete fighters you speak of? Whyte was definitely hungry, but he lacked then skills to exploit it, not the hunger.

I admit he looks far from unbeatable, but there's not much in the way of well rounded talent in the division these days.

Oiky wrote:

Rob3_142 wrote:

Oiky wrote: yup, theres your answer then, twice.

the hype around joshua will eventually end in a "what was all the fuss about" manner in my opinion, some can already see it and many many can't.

fairplay if he does make it i'll give him all the respect and would be great to see another english heavy being a world beater and being at the top but i don't think thats going to happen at all

I don't want to say you sound like a complete moron.......but......

Okay let me start again. My original question was;

What on earth makes you think that Parker will surpass Joshua?

Your answer was;

joshua is a KO waiting to happen

See where you went wrong?

Secondly, there is as much hype surrounding Joshua as there is Parker, but many will agree that Joshua has been tested, and stepped up his level appropriately to his current career status better than Parker. Joshua may well get knocked out one day, there isn't many that have gone through their careers in the HW division who have not. But then I'm not exactly sure what that proves...

feel free to say i sound like a complete moron if you want, its an internet forum, i don't take it seriously and i feel parker will emerge the more complete of the two, i'm not talking about an old once great joshua getting KOed in the future by a young hungry contender im talking about a joshua in the next 2-3year getting KOed and not rising up to where people think he is going to go. i feel parker will be too quick for joshua aswell.

AJ may be a big physical specimen but you can't put musles on the chin, AJ didn't recover well vs Whyte like some are saying. A hungrier more complete fighter would of got him out of there, AJ didn't recover well whyte just didn't/couldln't capitalize on it. i like whyte though. not only is parker quicker than AJ he is also a heavy hitter. a nightmare for someone like AJ who has a gammy chin. i also feel joshua is rather tensed up stiff and a little bit robotic in how he carries himself around the ring, which isn't going to help at all is it. its all speculation isn't it, i've my opinion you've yours

Well that's much better! Just be aware if you're going to say slightly outrageous and vague comments they are going to get jumped on by people that do care.

I don't know where you get your assumption that Joshua has a glass chin. I think if you called it an ultimately untested chin, I'd more inclined to agree with you. He's taken one big hit, recovered and gone on to win in convincing fashion. Whyte might not be regarded as a top fighter in the division, but his KO record suggests he can punch. Parker is also a largely unknown quantity as he is yet to fight anyone of note. At least after 17 fights we're going to know a lot more of what Joshua is about as he fights for the world title in April. Whereas it sounds like Parker is going to carry on bumbling along with journeymen.

Rob3_142 wrote:

Oiky wrote:

Rob3_142 wrote:
I don't want to say you sound like a complete moron.......but......

Okay let me start again. My original question was;



Your answer was;



See where you went wrong?

Secondly, there is as much hype surrounding Joshua as there is Parker, but many will agree that Joshua has been tested, and stepped up his level appropriately to his current career status better than Parker. Joshua may well get knocked out one day, there isn't many that have gone through their careers in the HW division who have not. But then I'm not exactly sure what that proves...

feel free to say i sound like a complete moron if you want, its an internet forum, i don't take it seriously and i feel parker will emerge the more complete of the two, i'm not talking about an old once great joshua getting KOed in the future by a young hungry contender im talking about a joshua in the next 2-3year getting KOed and not rising up to where people think he is going to go. i feel parker will be too quick for joshua aswell.

AJ may be a big physical specimen but you can't put musles on the chin, AJ didn't recover well vs Whyte like some are saying. A hungrier more complete fighter would of got him out of there, AJ didn't recover well whyte just didn't/couldln't capitalize on it. i like whyte though. not only is parker quicker than AJ he is also a heavy hitter. a nightmare for someone like AJ who has a gammy chin. i also feel joshua is rather tensed up stiff and a little bit robotic in how he carries himself around the ring, which isn't going to help at all is it. its all speculation isn't it, i've my opinion you've yours

Well that's much better! Just be aware if you're going to say slightly outrageous and vague comments they are going to get jumped on by people that do care.

I don't know where you get your assumption that Joshua has a glass chin. I think if you called it an ultimately untested chin, I'd more inclined to agree with you. He's taken one big hit, recovered and gone on to win in convincing fashion. Whyte might not be regarded as a top fighter in the division, but his KO record suggests he can punch. Parker is also a largely unknown quantity as he is yet to fight anyone of note. At least after 17 fights we're going to know a lot more of what Joshua is about as he fights for the world title in April. Whereas it sounds like Parker is going to carry on bumbling along with journeymen.

my comment was ultimately saying joshua, who is robotic and stiff, will get KOed and become irrelevant whereas parker who is quick and more elusive probably wouldln't in the next 2-3year. and with regards to my comments getting jumped on by people "that do care" you seem to have misunderstood what i meant. you seem to be trying to say that i don't care about boxing, which couldln't be further from the truth it is a huge part of my life and a passion. what i meant was opinions of me on here from other users, i don't take things personally from people that don't know me personally and all that . i care about the boxing discussions but not opinions of other users if they think i'm a moron or not .

when joshua comes up against an opponent who will not let him off the hook and who will capitalize properly you will see that he doesn't have a chin that will allow him to have longevity. joshua was rocked badly in the ams and while you can improve speed and ring IQ you can never improve your chin

parker looks slicker than joshua, is quicker, has better technique, moves around with more grace rather than being stiff, just a bad match up for joshua in my personal opinion, but its also a fight we won't see for a while unfortunately but for me i think parker wins it

Lancenix wrote:Don't forget that every time a man steps in the ring he is putting his life on the line.

i for myself try to never forget that
and as well how very, very difficult
it is in this sport to come close to
the spotlights. we as the comfortable
viewer are always smart from our seats
so far from the ring.

Didn't Wlad come out firing in round 4 of the first fight after his corner told him needed to put it all on Fury? How did that go?

Wlad simply doesn't know how to deal with a tricky fighter who has reach and stamina on him, and who is not at a speed disadvantage. When he tried to engage in the first fight Fury was up to the task. He is not going to turn himself into a proper pressure fighter at 40 years old.

Even in his younger, more offensive-minded incarnation, he beat guys up at a distance using speed and reach, not head movement and inside fighting. Fury is just a bad style for him, much more so now given the age gap. Barring a bomb landing or Fury spending camp at Nando's, the rematch goes the same way.