BoxRec

Kalan wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:Ali just plain mugged Liston in the first fight, even though he was given the liniment gift that should have assured Sonny's victory. Ali beat him so bad, that Liston could never find the will to even attempt put up a struggle in the next go round. And of course the Ali naysayers to this day want desperately twist themselves into knots to convince us that it was some sort of threat, or magic that created these outcomes.

BuzzBox there was no liniment... Neither Liston or his cornermen were ever charged or accused of anything like that...so you're full of it.

Ali didn't beat Liston bad. In fact, though Liston was badly injured when he had to quit---the fight was even on the cards.

Liston got up before Walcott could even start counting over him in the rematch... Only the referee can count you out and Liston never received an official count...so Liston was robbed.. And how can you explain Ali not being disqualified for not going to a neutral corner??? Has any boxer in fistic History more flagrantly disobeyed a referee's orders to go to a neutral corner???? You won't answer that.

And if Liston intended to quit... Why did he get up without a referee's count and square off to fight??? Why didn't he just wait to be counted out??? And how was it that he was easily able to duck and dodge every follow up punch Ali threw at him??? Another question you won't answer.

Ali-Liston 2 was fixed and Sonny didn't know how to lie down. Walcott was clueless as a ref, but Ali shouldn't have been DQd, Jersey should simply not have started the count until Ali was in a neutral corner. Ali did the same thing against Bonavena. Regarding the first fight, the cards may have had it close but the fight wasn't close.The judges couldn't believe nor understand what they were watching.

Ali did very well in the 6th round of the 1st fight... But Liston had a slight edge up to the 6th where the injury really destroyed his game.

And how does Walcott wait for Ali to go to a neutral corner to begin the count when Ali refused to go to a neutral corner for the ENTIRE COUNT???? Liston never received count "1" from the referee because Sonny was on his feet with Ali still not making it to a neutral corner... That kind of repeated disregard for the referee's orders can have only 1 fair consequence -- and that's a DQ... At the very least you let the fight continue because Sonny didn't get a count... I know you won't answer this... Neither will Buzzbox who is oblivious to facts.

anyne know of Sonny Liston and Joe Frazier ever met and particularly a photograph of it ?
They both had the Philadelphia connection of course,but I think Liston had long left Philly
by the time Frazier won the gold medal in the 1964 Olympics.

They had very a funny relationship...distant.. Frazier was scared of Liston, but Liston was Smokin Joe's original boxing hero... Liston had nothing but contempt for Frazier. "I will knock Frazier out anytime he gets ready... I wouldn't have to chase him or look for him... It would be like shooting fish in a barrel."

Why did Liston have difficullty accepting Joe Frazier ?
was he 'too country" or somethin' ?

Surprised Joe was scared of Sonny. Didn't think he was scared of anyone.

He was scared to death of Foreman... He was one of the most intimidated fighters I've ever seen before that fight.

Foreman was 6'3" X 217, trained to the quick, and ripped to the gills for that fight. I've never seen George look that strong. Norton was obviously scared of Foreman too and scared of Cooney. When Frazier got into the ring for Quarry, Ellis, Foster, Chuvalo, even Ali, he was the picture of confidence, but Foreman was such a bad style match-up for Joe it was ridiculous. Boxers almost instinctively know when an opponent is bad news -- or good news.

It's like Floyd Patterson -- actually a somewhat similar style to Frazier in that he bobbed and weaved and applied pressure. A brutal hitter had an open target. Patterson tried to look too casual against Liston, "Just another day at the office. Nothing to be scared of here." But a puncher knows. He can read your fear and it knocks the sh!t out of your game. The other scared Heavyweight Champion was Michael Spinks vs you know who.

Tyson was intimidated when he faced Holyfield. That's why he went bonkers in the rematch. You hate to feel fear if you're a bully. You disrespect weak people. Before the fight Mike said "If he beats me this time he'll be beating me at my best" ... That's one of the most negative comments I've ever heard.

Caractacus wrote:Why did Liston have difficullty accepting Joe Frazier ?

Of course he accepted Frazier. He accepted Patterson. He didn't like them because they had something he wanted ... and he knew he could knock them out.

Kalan wrote: ↑20 Jul 2017, 13:23 They had very a funny relationship...distant.. Frazier was scared of Liston, but Liston was Smokin Joe's original boxing hero... Liston had nothing but contempt for Frazier. "I will knock Frazier out anytime he gets ready... I wouldn't have to chase him or look for him... It would be like shooting fish in a barrel."

Liston's cut-man ,Milt Bailey went from Liston's coner in May 1965(vrs Muhammad Ali) to Joe Frazier's corner in 1966 (vrs Bonavena).

Holmes got off the canvas twice from the hardest puncher in the HW division, Earnie Shavers. Holmes won an absolute war with Kenny Norton. He has the skill, size, heart, and ring IQ to give Sonny a very distasteful evening.

BoxBuzz wrote: ↑20 Mar 2016, 15:37 Ali just plain mugged Liston in the first fight,

You're blind... The fight was DEAD EVEN after 6 rounds and Liston fought almost the entire fight with a terrible injury... Liston was forced to quit over a super well documented injury... Ali suffered a broken jaw in his first Norton Fight... Is that ONE reason that Norton beat the living shitt out of Ali??? I think you should take a moment to think before you go off again.

oogiebe wrote: ↑09 Apr 2018, 19:43 Holmes got off the canvas twice from the hardest puncher in the HW division, Earnie Shavers. Holmes won an absolute war with Kenny Norton. He has the skill, size, heart, and ring IQ to give Sonny a very distasteful evening.

Holmes wins this by my reckoning...

He's too smart and crafty for Liston... Holmes easily had the best of BoneCrusher Smith who was a tall guy with an extraordinary reach and a lot of size and strength.... At 42 Holmes got the best of Ray Mercer who was an Olympic Gold Medal winner and a guy who could outsmart punks like Tommy Morrison.... Mercer had every weapon and a game.

Tim Witherspoon looked enough like Sonny Liston to be his son.... Great jab... great right hand counter... ripping left hook... Holmes wasn't quite able to master Tim but he eventually outfought him in one of the hardest ring wars I've ever seen.

In the Norton Fight, Holmes ripped his left biceps like Liston.. But it wasn't as bad.. Holmes was able to adjust by brawling after the 4th round when the biceps began to unravel... He couldn't retract the jab... Holmes was lucky Norton wasn't a quick right hand puncher because his biceps was completely gone by the 13th... He was in full brawl mode in the 15th.

Holmes was bigger, had a better jab and the rest overall boxing skills. Being too much for Liston as a competitor of the later era.

Holmes becomes completely discombobulated by Liston's telephone pole jab
and thus becomes hesitent to throw his own jab at least as often as he did, and I think Liston would have went for Larry Holmes body early and often and Holmes crumbles to his knees in the 7th round
and looks to the ref for relief and is counted out..

Caractacus wrote: ↑10 Apr 2018, 15:49 Holmes becomes completely discombobulated by Liston's telephone pole jab
and thus becomes hesitent to throw his own jab at least as often as he did, and I think Liston would have went for Larry Holmes body early and often and Holmes crumbles to his knees in the 7th round
and looks to the ref for relief and is counted out..

Then...I awake from my dream to see Holmes standing over a swollen and broken Sonny Liston!

Holmes beats Liston like he owes him money.

No he doesn't... It's not that easy... 50's version of Liston was never floored... Actually until 1965 he was never floored... He was a great puncher and a good boxer... He fought 3 rounds in 3 years at one point and that made him vulnerable.

It would be a little bit like Holmes vs Witherspoon.

BoxBuzz wrote: ↑10 Apr 2018, 23:57 Holmes beats Liston like he owes him money.

I'm going to use that line!

Trevor Berbick didn't even owe Larry Holmes money... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zlQqSCzRrA