BoxRec

yancey wrote:

Syntax Error wrote:

Cygnus475 wrote:Well he lost to frazier pretty decisively but managed to look ok in spurts. Frazier is a more polished version of rocky so it's kind of a toss up.

I guess it depends on where you rate Rocky's power compared to shavers. Personally I have shavers one or two notches higher but given the enormous height and reach difference I see rocky strugglung from start to finish either way.

If I had to guess, rocky via lopsided split decision in a frustrating fight. It might resemble the Tyson vs green fight.

Frazier was coming off being bounced around the ring like a basketball by Foreman & was past it when he fought Bugner.

Although Bugner has the size & skill advantage, he was soo safety first & passive to beat Marciano.

Marciano would probably have struggled with Bugner, but I think Rock's pressure would have been the deciding factor in giving him a close UD.

I acknowledged that Frazier was past prime against Bugner in my earlier post.

But I am glad that you are able to see that Bugner had at least some of the tools (size and skill advantage) to beat Rocky.

My belief is that Bugner would rise to the occasion (like he did against Frazier) and use those tools to beat Rocky.

Yes, Bugner, if he had his greatest night, might just "rise to the occasion" and lose to Marciano on points, getting knocked down in the process.

World wide, headlines on "possible" match such as this... only a dream! Joe Bugner accomplished some good things with his career. Jimmy Ellis vs Joe Bugner is a good "dream fight" too, you know! Then...how does Jimmy Ellis vs ROCKY MARCIANO play out?????
Rocky was a great champion because he ALWAYS CAME THRU; he was "consistent". NO GAPS/ NO HOULS. Joe Bugner has "nice" career. But, he had a few houls, (gaps). YOU TAKE JOE BUGNER at his best against ROCKY on a off night and, you maybe can dream until END OF TIME! : )
Joe Bugner must be proud having people debating him here against someone as "a.t.g." (basically) as "THE ROCK!"
Tell you one more "little que" here..... JOE BUGNER IS LIVING! ROCKY DIED....LONG AGO! SOMEDAY, when YOU ALL, and ME, and JOE are in HEAVEN, you'll SEE....us standing next to Joe Bugner ("juniors")/Joe standing next to ROCKY ("big time JUNIOR"!)

Cygnus475 wrote:Well he lost to frazier pretty decisively but managed to look ok in spurts. Frazier is a more polished version of rocky so it's kind of a toss up.

I guess it depends on where you rate Rocky's power compared to shavers. Personally I have shavers one or two notches higher but given the enormous height and reach difference I see rocky strugglung from start to finish either way.

If I had to guess, rocky via lopsided split decision in a frustrating fight. It might resemble the Tyson vs green fight.

I just don’t know enough about Marciano. Don’t mean to sound too ignorant but were there any black heavies around of the highest calibre?
Normally through all the ages there’s been muscular and athletic black athletes at the weight and it seems strange for a white guy (or anyone for that matter) let alone relatively small to 49-0.
I know Marciano was a force of nature....when was he active? 50s? Somewhere between the Louis and Liston/ Ali eras?....
I’ll check his record....as I say, not too familiar with The Rock, sorry......Jersey Joe Walcott’s name rings a bell....did they fight?

ImranSarwar wrote:World wide, headlines on "possible" match such as this... only a dream! Joe Bugner accomplished some good things with his career. Jimmy Ellis vs Joe Bugner is a good "dream fight" too, you know! Then...how does Jimmy Ellis vs ROCKY MARCIANO play out?????
Rocky was a great champion because he ALWAYS CAME THRU; he was "consistent". NO GAPS/ NO HOULS. Joe Bugner has "nice" career. But, he had a few houls, (gaps). YOU TAKE JOE BUGNER at his best against ROCKY on a off night and, you maybe can dream until END OF TIME! : )
Joe Bugner must be proud having people debating him here against someone as "a.t.g." (basically) as "THE ROCK!"
Tell you one more "little que" here..... JOE BUGNER IS LIVING! ROCKY DIED....LONG AGO! SOMEDAY, when YOU ALL, and ME, and JOE are in HEAVEN, you'll SEE....us standing next to Joe Bugner ("juniors")/Joe standing next to ROCKY ("big time JUNIOR"!)

Man, I love a succinct post.

magwitch wrote:

Cygnus475 wrote:Well he lost to frazier pretty decisively but managed to look ok in spurts. Frazier is a more polished version of rocky so it's kind of a toss up.

I guess it depends on where you rate Rocky's power compared to shavers. Personally I have shavers one or two notches higher but given the enormous height and reach difference I see rocky strugglung from start to finish either way.

If I had to guess, rocky via lopsided split decision in a frustrating fight. It might resemble the Tyson vs green fight.

I just don’t know enough about Marciano. Don’t mean to sound too ignorant but were there any black heavies around of the highest calibre?
Normally through all the ages there’s been muscular and athletic black athletes at the weight and it seems strange for a white guy (or anyone for that matter) let alone relatively small to 49-0.
I know Marciano was a force of nature....when was he active? 50s? Somewhere between the Louis and Liston/ Ali eras?....
I’ll check his record....as I say, not too familiar with The Rock, sorry......Jersey Joe Walcott’s name rings a bell....did they fight?

Marciano beat blacks of the very highest calibre, Magwitch old boy.

Tuan_Jim wrote:

magwitch wrote:

Cygnus475 wrote:Well he lost to frazier pretty decisively but managed to look ok in spurts. Frazier is a more polished version of rocky so it's kind of a toss up.

I guess it depends on where you rate Rocky's power compared to shavers. Personally I have shavers one or two notches higher but given the enormous height and reach difference I see rocky strugglung from start to finish either way.

If I had to guess, rocky via lopsided split decision in a frustrating fight. It might resemble the Tyson vs green fight.

I just don’t know enough about Marciano. Don’t mean to sound too ignorant but were there any black heavies around of the highest calibre?
Normally through all the ages there’s been muscular and athletic black athletes at the weight and it seems strange for a white guy (or anyone for that matter) let alone relatively small to 49-0.
I know Marciano was a force of nature....when was he active? 50s? Somewhere between the Louis and Liston/ Ali eras?....
I’ll check his record....as I say, not too familiar with The Rock, sorry......Jersey Joe Walcott’s name rings a bell....did they fight?

Marciano beat blacks of the very highest calibre, Magwitch old boy.

I knew I was walking a tightrope, don’t worry.

I’ve had a little look and you sure are correct. Would it be accurate to say Joe Louis was at the end of his career? Surely a prime Joe Louis would have had the beating of him.
Archie Moore I’ve heard of but don’t know enough about.
Would these fine fellers have had the same sort of access (as well as free time) to training, as say the Alis Foremans Tysons Lewises etc...
It seems an unlikely thing to do in the 1950s for any man to go 49-0, let alone a white man at heavyweight..

or to paraphrase it, where do Moore, Walcott and the version of Louis that Marciano beat, stand in the rankings.
They are the only names I’m familiar with on his record. Sure there were other good fighters.

The idea of any man of any creed racking up a half century of wins back then really surprises me.
Didn’t Marciano make some film or some exhibition with Ali...not long before he died?

magwitch wrote:or to paraphrase it, where do Moore, Walcott and the version of Louis that Marciano beat, stand in the rankings.
They are the only names I’m familiar with on his record. Sure there were other good fighters.

The idea of any man of any creed racking up a half century of wins back then really surprises me.
Didn’t Marciano make some film or some exhibition with Ali...not long before he died?

Walcott, Charles and Moore were beautiful fighters. You might enjoy watching some of the highlight videos of the various Walcott/Charles fights on YouTube. It's like ballet, but with blood. And it reminds you that heavyweight boxing was once the purest example of the Sweet Science, and not the sordid WWF-style pantomime of the Klitschko, Fury, Wilder and Joshua debacles.

magwitch wrote:

Tuan_Jim wrote:

magwitch wrote:

I just don’t know enough about Marciano. Don’t mean to sound too ignorant but were there any black heavies around of the highest calibre?
Normally through all the ages there’s been muscular and athletic black athletes at the weight and it seems strange for a white guy (or anyone for that matter) let alone relatively small to 49-0.
I know Marciano was a force of nature....when was he active? 50s? Somewhere between the Louis and Liston/ Ali eras?....
I’ll check his record....as I say, not too familiar with The Rock, sorry......Jersey Joe Walcott’s name rings a bell....did they fight?

Marciano beat blacks of the very highest calibre, Magwitch old boy.

I knew I was walking a tightrope, don’t worry.

I’ve had a little look and you sure are correct. Would it be accurate to say Joe Louis was at the end of his career? Surely a prime Joe Louis would have had the beating of him.
Archie Moore I’ve heard of but don’t know enough about.
Would these fine fellers have had the same sort of access (as well as free time) to training, as say the Alis Foremans Tysons Lewises etc...
It seems an unlikely thing to do in the 1950s for any man to go 49-0, let alone a white man at heavyweight..

Yes Marchand fought some black fighters but the majority of then were cerebral technicians.

The reason most don't put Rocky in the #1 spot is

-his best wins were against men a few years shy of 40.

-2 of them were light heavyweights moving up and naturally smaller men (moore, charles)

-Joe Louis (his biggest name on paper) was past his prime and desperate for a paycheck to get the IRS off his back.

-rumors of a a mafia connection and fighting as a pro then going back to amateurs leaves a few asterisks. He fought his own brother under fake aliases. Moore claims he threw his fight.

There are very, very few men on Rock's record who were bona-fide heavies (6'1 range or higher and 210+ lbs). There were actually several avaiklable whom he didn't fight. Marciano also retired at a relatively young age and had a handful of top contenders he never fought (although many of them weren't very relevant to be fair).

On the other hand:

-Rocky never "ducked" anyone. Any significant heavy that could generate revenue or a challenge he fought and beat convincingly for the most part. That's all you can ask of a champ and more modern fighters should follow his example.

-regarding "black" fighters, again, the color line had been broken years ago and the best at the time were indeed walcott, charles, moore, and Louis and rocky beat all of them. You could make an argument that he should have fought either johanson (not black but young and deadly) or patterson but you could say that about almost any champ that they missed 1 or 2 rising young contender. Besides, even if he did wait on Patterson he would not be the same Patterson we know today with all his experience and technique, he'd be very raw. If he waited for Liston he'd be near 40 and not able to generate the same insane power, work rate, and cardio. A lose lose situation.

Rocky Marciano vs Boone Kirkman; Rocky Marciano vs Jimmy Ellis; Rocky vs Oscar Bonevena! Rocky Marciano vs Jimmy Young; Rocky vs Joe Frazier..you know Joe Frazier got LOT MORE "gumption" than JOE BUGNER!

Bob Foster vs Joe Bugner! Bob Foster - Rocky!

Cygnus475 wrote:

magwitch wrote:

Tuan_Jim wrote:
Marciano beat blacks of the very highest calibre, Magwitch old boy.

I knew I was walking a tightrope, don’t worry.

I’ve had a little look and you sure are correct. Would it be accurate to say Joe Louis was at the end of his career? Surely a prime Joe Louis would have had the beating of him.
Archie Moore I’ve heard of but don’t know enough about.
Would these fine fellers have had the same sort of access (as well as free time) to training, as say the Alis Foremans Tysons Lewises etc...
It seems an unlikely thing to do in the 1950s for any man to go 49-0, let alone a white man at heavyweight..

Yes Marchand fought some black fighters but the majority of then were cerebral technicians.

The reason most don't put Rocky in the #1 spot is

-his best wins were against men a few years shy of 40.

-2 of them were light heavyweights moving up and naturally smaller men (moore, charles)

-Joe Louis (his biggest name on paper) was past his prime and desperate for a paycheck to get the IRS off his back.

-rumors of a a mafia connection and fighting as a pro then going back to amateurs leaves a few asterisks. He fought his own brother under fake aliases. Moore claims he threw his fight.

There are very, very few men on Rock's record who were bona-fide heavies (6'1 range or higher and 210+ lbs). There were actually several avaiklable whom he didn't fight. Marciano also retired at a relatively young age and had a handful of top contenders he never fought (although many of them weren't very relevant to be fair).

On the other hand:

-Rocky never "ducked" anyone. Any significant heavy that could generate revenue or a challenge he fought and beat convincingly for the most part. That's all you can ask of a champ and more modern fighters should follow his example.

-regarding "black" fighters, again, the color line had been broken years ago and the best at the time were indeed walcott, charles, moore, and Louis and rocky beat all of them. You could make an argument that he should have fought either johanson (not black but young and deadly) or patterson but you could say that about almost any champ that they missed 1 or 2 rising young contender. Besides, even if he did wait on Patterson he would not be the same Patterson we know today with all his experience and technique, he'd be very raw. If he waited for Liston he'd be near 40 and not able to generate the same insane power, work rate, and cardio. A lose lose situation.

Charles had been heavyweight champ with 10 or so defences. He was hardly a 'light heavy moving up' by the time he fought Rocky.

Why you would give any credence to a Moore claim he 'threw the fight' is beyond me. Moore was bludgeoned.

ImranSarwar wrote:Rocky Marciano vs Boone Kirkman; Rocky Marciano vs Jimmy Ellis; Rocky vs Oscar Bonevena! Rocky Marciano vs Jimmy Young; Rocky vs Joe Frazier..you know Joe Frazier got LOT MORE "gumption" than JOE BUGNER!

Is Jimmy Ellis the Jamaican who passed away about two years ago? Muhammad Ali's sparring partner. I think he was a middleweight but he went up and became a world champion himself..

Cygnus475 wrote:

magwitch wrote:

Tuan_Jim wrote:
Marciano beat blacks of the very highest calibre, Magwitch old boy.

I knew I was walking a tightrope, don’t worry.

I’ve had a little look and you sure are correct. Would it be accurate to say Joe Louis was at the end of his career? Surely a prime Joe Louis would have had the beating of him.
Archie Moore I’ve heard of but don’t know enough about.
Would these fine fellers have had the same sort of access (as well as free time) to training, as say the Alis Foremans Tysons Lewises etc...
It seems an unlikely thing to do in the 1950s for any man to go 49-0, let alone a white man at heavyweight..

Yes Marchand fought some black fighters but the majority of then were cerebral technicians.

The reason most don't put Rocky in the #1 spot is

-his best wins were against men a few years shy of 40.

-2 of them were light heavyweights moving up and naturally smaller men (moore, charles)

-Joe Louis (his biggest name on paper) was past his prime and desperate for a paycheck to get the IRS off his back.

-rumors of a a mafia connection and fighting as a pro then going back to amateurs leaves a few asterisks. He fought his own brother under fake aliases. Moore claims he threw his fight.

There are very, very few men on Rock's record who were bona-fide heavies (6'1 range or higher and 210+ lbs). There were actually several avaiklable whom he didn't fight. Marciano also retired at a relatively young age and had a handful of top contenders he never fought (although many of them weren't very relevant to be fair).

On the other hand:

-Rocky never "ducked" anyone. Any significant heavy that could generate revenue or a challenge he fought and beat convincingly for the most part. That's all you can ask of a champ and more modern fighters should follow his example.

-regarding "black" fighters, again, the color line had been broken years ago and the best at the time were indeed walcott, charles, moore, and Louis and rocky beat all of them. You could make an argument that he should have fought either johanson (not black but young and deadly) or patterson but you could say that about almost any champ that they missed 1 or 2 rising young contender. Besides, even if he did wait on Patterson he would not be the same Patterson we know today with all his experience and technique, he'd be very raw. If he waited for Liston he'd be near 40 and not able to generate the same insane power, work rate, and cardio. A lose lose situation.

interesting post, thanks

so it sounds like he was born at a good time, a good time for him anyway. Would that be fair?
But then if he'd been born a few years before or after he'd have had some serious hombres to fight. Would that have made his career better or worse financially I wonder?

The likes of Norton, Foreman, Shavers and Ali all sound to big for him to me....but I could be wrong. It sounds like he wouldn't have ducked them.

magwitch wrote:

Cygnus475 wrote:

magwitch wrote:


I knew I was walking a tightrope, don’t worry.

I’ve had a little look and you sure are correct. Would it be accurate to say Joe Louis was at the end of his career? Surely a prime Joe Louis would have had the beating of him.
Archie Moore I’ve heard of but don’t know enough about.
Would these fine fellers have had the same sort of access (as well as free time) to training, as say the Alis Foremans Tysons Lewises etc...
It seems an unlikely thing to do in the 1950s for any man to go 49-0, let alone a white man at heavyweight..

Yes Marchand fought some black fighters but the majority of then were cerebral technicians.

The reason most don't put Rocky in the #1 spot is

-his best wins were against men a few years shy of 40.

-2 of them were light heavyweights moving up and naturally smaller men (moore, charles)

-Joe Louis (his biggest name on paper) was past his prime and desperate for a paycheck to get the IRS off his back.

-rumors of a a mafia connection and fighting as a pro then going back to amateurs leaves a few asterisks. He fought his own brother under fake aliases. Moore claims he threw his fight.

There are very, very few men on Rock's record who were bona-fide heavies (6'1 range or higher and 210+ lbs). There were actually several avaiklable whom he didn't fight. Marciano also retired at a relatively young age and had a handful of top contenders he never fought (although many of them weren't very relevant to be fair).

On the other hand:

-Rocky never "ducked" anyone. Any significant heavy that could generate revenue or a challenge he fought and beat convincingly for the most part. That's all you can ask of a champ and more modern fighters should follow his example.

-regarding "black" fighters, again, the color line had been broken years ago and the best at the time were indeed walcott, charles, moore, and Louis and rocky beat all of them. You could make an argument that he should have fought either johanson (not black but young and deadly) or patterson but you could say that about almost any champ that they missed 1 or 2 rising young contender. Besides, even if he did wait on Patterson he would not be the same Patterson we know today with all his experience and technique, he'd be very raw. If he waited for Liston he'd be near 40 and not able to generate the same insane power, work rate, and cardio. A lose lose situation.

interesting post, thanks

so it sounds like he was born at a good time, a good time for him anyway. Would that be fair?
But then if he'd been born a few years before or after he'd have had some serious hombres to fight. Would that have made his career better or worse financially I wonder?

The likes of Norton, Foreman, Shavers and Ali all sound to big for him to me....but I could be wrong. It sounds like he wouldn't have ducked them.

He was a short chunky powerhouse who went into isolation to train and spent months whittling his body down to its rock hard cut. The idea that Foreman and Ali etc would be too big for him is a fairly common one, and based on the faulty assumption the intelligent Marciano wouldn't look at what he was fighting and adapt his camp accordingly.

Much faster men than Foreman, Norton and Shavers struggled to land much square on him, whereas he could land regularly on quick, fleet footed types. I think larger heavyweights who came looking for you would suit Marciano down to the ground. He was relentless and obviously punishing to fight, a ruiner of men.

magwitch,

Study the films and think for yourself.

ImranSarwar wrote:Rocky Marciano vs Boone Kirkman; Rocky Marciano vs Jimmy Ellis; Rocky vs Oscar Bonevena! Rocky Marciano vs Jimmy Young; Rocky vs Joe Frazier..you know Joe Frazier got LOT MORE "gumption" than JOE BUGNER!

And your point is?

Or is there a point?

Tuan_Jim wrote:

magwitch wrote:

Cygnus475 wrote:
Yes Marchand fought some black fighters but the majority of then were cerebral technicians.

The reason most don't put Rocky in the #1 spot is

-his best wins were against men a few years shy of 40.

-2 of them were light heavyweights moving up and naturally smaller men (moore, charles)

-Joe Louis (his biggest name on paper) was past his prime and desperate for a paycheck to get the IRS off his back.

-rumors of a a mafia connection and fighting as a pro then going back to amateurs leaves a few asterisks. He fought his own brother under fake aliases. Moore claims he threw his fight.

There are very, very few men on Rock's record who were bona-fide heavies (6'1 range or higher and 210+ lbs). There were actually several avaiklable whom he didn't fight. Marciano also retired at a relatively young age and had a handful of top contenders he never fought (although many of them weren't very relevant to be fair).

On the other hand:

-Rocky never "ducked" anyone. Any significant heavy that could generate revenue or a challenge he fought and beat convincingly for the most part. That's all you can ask of a champ and more modern fighters should follow his example.

-regarding "black" fighters, again, the color line had been broken years ago and the best at the time were indeed walcott, charles, moore, and Louis and rocky beat all of them. You could make an argument that he should have fought either johanson (not black but young and deadly) or patterson but you could say that about almost any champ that they missed 1 or 2 rising young contender. Besides, even if he did wait on Patterson he would not be the same Patterson we know today with all his experience and technique, he'd be very raw. If he waited for Liston he'd be near 40 and not able to generate the same insane power, work rate, and cardio. A lose lose situation.

interesting post, thanks

so it sounds like he was born at a good time, a good time for him anyway. Would that be fair?
But then if he'd been born a few years before or after he'd have had some serious hombres to fight. Would that have made his career better or worse financially I wonder?

The likes of Norton, Foreman, Shavers and Ali all sound to big for him to me....but I could be wrong. It sounds like he wouldn't have ducked them.

He was a short chunky powerhouse who went into isolation to train and spent months whittling his body down to its rock hard cut. The idea that Foreman and Ali etc would be too big for him is a fairly common one, and based on the faulty assumption the intelligent Marciano wouldn't look at what he was fighting and adapt his camp accordingly.

Much faster men than Foreman, Norton and Shavers struggled to land much square on him, whereas he could land regularly on quick, fleet footed types. I think larger heavyweights who came looking for you would suit Marciano down to the ground. He was relentless and obviously punishing to fight, a ruiner of men.

Lol ali was the fastest heavyweight in the world bar none and foreman, shavers, and norton landed on him rather frequently.

Please tell me you're not insinuating Marciano was faster than ali?

No, Marciano would not be suited to fight the sluggers of the 70's. He'd be giving up nearly half a foot in height, over ten inches in reach and over 30 lbs in weight. That's an uphill battle for any fighter
Even bonavena would give Marciano problems.

As for charles, I know he had been a heavyweight for a while but his natural build and weight was very small and lanky compared to most heavies of the 70's onwards. Very few of Marcianos opponents were huge natural heavies.

As for moore throwing the fight, not my claim, it was proposed by the author of the devil and sonny liston. Apparently the reporter who interviewed him shortly after the fight thought so because moore was balling.

yancey wrote:

ImranSarwar wrote:Rocky Marciano vs Boone Kirkman; Rocky Marciano vs Jimmy Ellis; Rocky vs Oscar Bonevena! Rocky Marciano vs Jimmy Young; Rocky vs Joe Frazier..you know Joe Frazier got LOT MORE "gumption" than JOE BUGNER!

And your point is?

Or is there a point?

Yeah..you got it right! That IS the point! : )
Names are "dictionary" in my private world! : )
[I am still trying to find PEOPLE to play my "game", -shows me if they KNOW PROPERLY?- looking for a 1-2-3 rating between ERNIE SHAVERS, KEN NORTON, RON LYLE a.t., only one correct answer! You can play?????? : )]

Cygnus475 wrote:

Tuan_Jim wrote:

magwitch wrote:
interesting post, thanks

so it sounds like he was born at a good time, a good time for him anyway. Would that be fair?
But then if he'd been born a few years before or after he'd have had some serious hombres to fight. Would that have made his career better or worse financially I wonder?

The likes of Norton, Foreman, Shavers and Ali all sound to big for him to me....but I could be wrong. It sounds like he wouldn't have ducked them.

He was a short chunky powerhouse who went into isolation to train and spent months whittling his body down to its rock hard cut. The idea that Foreman and Ali etc would be too big for him is a fairly common one, and based on the faulty assumption the intelligent Marciano wouldn't look at what he was fighting and adapt his camp accordingly.

Much faster men than Foreman, Norton and Shavers struggled to land much square on him, whereas he could land regularly on quick, fleet footed types. I think larger heavyweights who came looking for you would suit Marciano down to the ground. He was relentless and obviously punishing to fight, a ruiner of men.

Lol ali was the fastest heavyweight in the world bar none and foreman, shavers, and norton landed on him rather frequently.

Please tell me you're not insinuating Marciano was faster than ali?

No, Marciano would not be suited to fight the sluggers of the 70's. He'd be giving up nearly half a foot in height, over ten inches in reach and over 30 lbs in weight. That's an uphill battle for any fighter
Even bonavena would give Marciano problems.

As for charles, I know he had been a heavyweight for a while but his natural build and weight was very small and lanky compared to most heavies of the 70's onwards. Very few of Marcianos opponents were huge natural heavies.

As for moore throwing the fight, not my claim, it was proposed by the author of the devil and sonny liston. Apparently the reporter who interviewed him shortly after the fight thought so because moore was balling.

Mmm size isn't everything. Rocky did love fighting larger guys, I've seen him say it in interviews. In fact a case could be made that the guys around Rocky's era were box-fighters that wouldn't be suited to him. Rocky's problem I think would be against large fighters who stay away - like Ali or holmes. Those that come at him are likely to have some serious problems. Rocky was an enormous puncher of that there is no doubt - Louis said he hit harder than anyone he'd fought. He was also a very very clever fighter - his whole training regime and tactic was to use his lack of height and reach to his advantage. Yes he'd be giving away height and weight but the man hit hard and had an incredible will to win. Don't get me wrong, I still don't place Rocky up there with the very best heavys of all time (hes prob 6-12 all time) but he'd defo give anyone in history a serious test and a lot of the bigger/slower guys from the 70s onwards - he would bust them up badly.

Cygnus475 wrote:Lol ali was the fastest heavyweight in the world bar none and foreman, shavers, and norton landed on him rather frequently.

Please tell me you're not insinuating Marciano was faster than ali?

No, Marciano would not be suited to fight the sluggers of the 70's. He'd be giving up nearly half a foot in height, over ten inches in reach and over 30 lbs in weight. That's an uphill battle for any fighter
Even bonavena would give Marciano problems.

As for charles, I know he had been a heavyweight for a while but his natural build and weight was very small and lanky compared to most heavies of the 70's onwards. Very few of Marcianos opponents were huge natural heavies.

As for moore throwing the fight, not my claim, it was proposed by the author of the devil and sonny liston. Apparently the reporter who interviewed him shortly after the fight thought so because moore was balling.

Whenever a poster opens a reply with 'lol' you know a tedious chain of blunders & misunderstandings will follow - as it did here.

Ali was in his 30s and had lost his prime 60s mobility when he boxed Foreman, Norton and Shavers. For Christ's sake, he was a 35 year old man when he fought Shavers. I made no comparison between the prime Ali and Rocky Marciano. All I said was Marciano could catch fleet footed movers, which he did, repeatedly. The tapes are emphatic here. Based on that, we can be confident he could connect on Foreman, Norton and Shavers et al.

To reiterate my point, Marciano pared his body down in order to catch movers. My view is that he would adapt his training to tackle larger fellows who don't move so fast. I doubt he would willingly give up that much in weight to men he knows won't be dancing.

Ultimately, whatever the disparity in dimensions, we have Dempsey/Willard, Bear/Carnera, Louis/Carnera, B.Baer I & II and Simon I & II, Spinks/Cooney, Tyson/Tucker, RJJ/Ruiz, Holyfield & Haye/Valuev and so many more examples of talent & greatness trumping size. Marciano proved a great deal of greatness.

Why you would ignore the tape of Marciano/Moore, or the hundred or so Moore interviews, and suggest the fight was a fix because Nick Tosches said so defeats all logic & reason.

It was the Patterson-Moore fight for the heavyweight title,that its believed Archie Moore threw on purpose for possible various reasons.
There was a whole thread on this several years ago.

ImranSarwar wrote:

yancey wrote:

ImranSarwar wrote:Rocky Marciano vs Boone Kirkman; Rocky Marciano vs Jimmy Ellis; Rocky vs Oscar Bonevena! Rocky Marciano vs Jimmy Young; Rocky vs Joe Frazier..you know Joe Frazier got LOT MORE "gumption" than JOE BUGNER!

And your point is?

Or is there a point?

Yeah..you got it right! That IS the point! : )
Names are "dictionary" in my private world! : )
[I am still trying to find PEOPLE to play my "game", -shows me if they KNOW PROPERLY?- looking for a 1-2-3 rating between ERNIE SHAVERS, KEN NORTON, RON LYLE a.t., only one correct answer! You can play?????? : )]

delete.

Tuan_Jim wrote:

Cygnus475 wrote:Lol ali was the fastest heavyweight in the world bar none and foreman, shavers, and norton landed on him rather frequently.

Please tell me you're not insinuating Marciano was faster than ali?

No, Marciano would not be suited to fight the sluggers of the 70's. He'd be giving up nearly half a foot in height, over ten inches in reach and over 30 lbs in weight. That's an uphill battle for any fighter
Even bonavena would give Marciano problems.

As for charles, I know he had been a heavyweight for a while but his natural build and weight was very small and lanky compared to most heavies of the 70's onwards. Very few of Marcianos opponents were huge natural heavies.

As for moore throwing the fight, not my claim, it was proposed by the author of the devil and sonny liston. Apparently the reporter who interviewed him shortly after the fight thought so because moore was balling.

Whenever a poster opens a reply with 'lol' you know a tedious chain of blunders & misunderstandings will follow - as it did here.

Ali was in his 30s and had lost his prime 60s mobility when he boxed Foreman, Norton and Shavers. For Christ's sake, he was a 35 year old man when he fought Shavers. I made no comparison between the prime Ali and Rocky Marciano. All I said was Marciano could catch fleet footed movers, which he did, repeatedly. The tapes are emphatic here. Based on that, we can be confident he could connect on Foreman, Norton and Shavers et al.

To reiterate my point, Marciano pared his body down in order to catch movers. My view is that he would adapt his training to tackle larger fellows who don't move so fast. I doubt he would willingly give up that much in weight to men he knows won't be dancing.

Ultimately, whatever the disparity in dimensions, we have Dempsey/Willard, Bear/Carnera, Louis/Carnera, B.Baer I & II and Simon I & II, Spinks/Cooney, Tyson/Tucker, RJJ/Ruiz, Holyfield & Haye/Valuev and so many more examples of talent & greatness trumping size. Marciano proved a great deal of greatness.

Why you would ignore the tape of Marciano/Moore, or the hundred or so Moore interviews, and suggest the fight was a fix because Nick Tosches said so defeats all logic & reason.

"Confident he would connect on Foreman", huh?



Prime Foreman would freaking manhandle Rocky.