BoxRec

Wilder is typically only about 5-10 pounds heavier than Ali was for much of his championship career.

jezzamundo wrote:

Chepppaaa wrote:

jezzamundo wrote:
Again, you're completely wrong about the Ali-Norton matchup - the reason Ali struggled with him is because Norton was a highly skilled guy whose style gave Ali fits. Norton's strength and athleticism played a part, but were far less of a factor than the Norton's skills and the strategy he employed. I was impressed by Ortiz against Jennings, but I think it's a close call as to who the more skilled fighter is and Norton was definitely more athletic than Ortiz. I certainly haven't seen any evidence to suggest that Joshua is more skilled than Norton either - just bigger, stronger and more powerful.

Toney is an excellent example of how a naturally smaller guy without great athleticism but with great skills can have success against much larger fighters - Toney was a legit top 10 heavyweight for a while, probably peaking around the time of the Holyfield fight. By the time he fought Browne and Lebedev he was completely shot. The first Peter fight was a split decision - it was the rematch where Peter battered him, which probably contributed a lot to his demise. I'm not saying that Toney would beat Joshua or Ortiz - he wouldn't - but the fact that he was able to be competitive with much bigger, stronger guys, despite being out of shape and not a great athlete himself, show how much of a difference boxing skills can make.

correct skills will always play a big role, no doubt about that.

but the final point is. size does matter. weight and height do matter. i say it again, comparing ali to josh or wilder, is like comparing a welterweight to an super middleweight. its like thurman boxing degale. just to much difference at the end. whatever skilllevel you may have, it is to much. as much better floyds skill level would be compared to badou jack o george groves, they still would break floyd. they would have reach advantages, power advantages etc.

you simply dont want to accept that fact. to you it destroys ali being the goat. which isnt true, cause in a p4p he is part of the group who could be called goat.

I agree that a top welterweight fighting a top super middleweight is too big a gap to breach, I disagree that the same applies when comparing a 212lb heavyweight to a 245lb heavyweight. Mathematically it may be the same, but it doesn't work out that way in real life. Take the following example:

Holyfield was a naturally smaller guy than Ali (he said himself that he could have comfortably boxed his whole career at 190lb) yet he was able to go to war with Riddick Bowe and beat him in their second fight. A post-prime Holyfield was also competitive with a prime Lennox Lewis in their rematch. Bowe and Lewis were roughly Joshua's size, highly skilled and athletic for big men, yet a blown-up cruiserweight was able to hang with them. Ali's chin was on the same level as Evander's yet he had far better handspeed, footspeed and stamina.

to me it is the same. comparing a ww-sm, with the old heavyweights and the new.

okay. i give you that, the smaller holyfield was competetive in the bowe and lewis fghts.

yet still, do not forget he fought 3 times against bowe, 2 times against lewis and he lost 4 out of these 5 fights. technicly he was equaly to lewis and bowe, so what were the favouring points why lewis and bowe beat holyfield? height? weight? reach?

this is the end, it has been fun talking to you.

Chepppaaa wrote:

jezzamundo wrote:

Chepppaaa wrote:

correct skills will always play a big role, no doubt about that.

but the final point is. size does matter. weight and height do matter. i say it again, comparing ali to josh or wilder, is like comparing a welterweight to an super middleweight. its like thurman boxing degale. just to much difference at the end. whatever skilllevel you may have, it is to much. as much better floyds skill level would be compared to badou jack o george groves, they still would break floyd. they would have reach advantages, power advantages etc.

you simply dont want to accept that fact. to you it destroys ali being the goat. which isnt true, cause in a p4p he is part of the group who could be called goat.

I agree that a top welterweight fighting a top super middleweight is too big a gap to breach, I disagree that the same applies when comparing a 212lb heavyweight to a 245lb heavyweight. Mathematically it may be the same, but it doesn't work out that way in real life. Take the following example:

Holyfield was a naturally smaller guy than Ali (he said himself that he could have comfortably boxed his whole career at 190lb) yet he was able to go to war with Riddick Bowe and beat him in their second fight. A post-prime Holyfield was also competitive with a prime Lennox Lewis in their rematch. Bowe and Lewis were roughly Joshua's size, highly skilled and athletic for big men, yet a blown-up cruiserweight was able to hang with them. Ali's chin was on the same level as Evander's yet he had far better handspeed, footspeed and stamina.

to me it is the same. comparing a ww-sm, with the old heavyweights and the new.

okay. i give you that, the smaller holyfield was competetive in the bowe and lewis fghts.

yet still, do not forget he fought 3 times against bowe, 2 times against lewis and he lost 4 out of these 5 fights. technicly he was equaly to lewis and bowe, so what were the favouring points why lewis and bowe beat holyfield? height? weight? reach?

this is the end, it has been fun talking to you.

How can it be the same when results in the ring consistently show that small heavyweights can beat big heavyweights? I'm not arguing that size doesn't make a difference at heavyweight - it does - but it doesn't to the extent that it does at lower weights. To discount someone as physically gifted and as tough as Ali, against the likes of Wilder, Joshua and Ortiz, simply because of size makes no sense whatsoever. None of Wilder, Joshua or Ortiz have proven themselves to be in the class of Bowe and Lewis, yet Bowe and Lewis were both pushed and in Bowe's case beaten, by someone smaller, slower, with worse stamina and not appreciably stronger than Ali.

I would actually argue that Holyfield is technically superior to Lewis and in particular Bowe so yes, the gap in size made a big difference in those fights, but that was largely because Holyfield is a very physical fighter who gets into exchanges. When he used his speed and boxed from a distance against Bowe, he won rounds, when he got in close and mixed it up, he took damage. A prime Ali's foot and handspeed would mean he wouldn't often have to mix it up and trade punches. Any deficits in height and reach can be offset by superior speed and timing. I'm not saying that today's giants couldn't possibly beat Ali and I'm not saying that their size wouldn't be a factor - but based on all the available evidence, I think Ali beats them all more often than not.

jezzamundo wrote:

Chepppaaa wrote:

koolkc107 wrote:
Thanks, Jezzamundo.

At least one person got it.

They are heavyweights. A decent, well-timed blow from even
the lightest punching guy over 200 lbs is potential trouble for
any man of any weight. Once you get that size, physics takes
over.

Ali was no powder puncher either. He always had legit power. What the hell
do you think they meant by "Sting like a bee"? Couple that legit power with the
speed of a middleweight and he is a bad, bad dream for anyone, nevermind
a 250 lb guy who is a lumbering hulk in comparison, athletic or no.

Ali plays with them for 7 or 8 rounds then takes them out. Death by a thousand cuts.

he struggled against big guys, guys who would be considered small compared to wilder and josh.

you dont seem to get the point. i doubt you even fully read what i wrote down, cause you making no commments about it. but thats no problem, i work with non experts who are frozen on their mindset and dont want to evolve.

Again, Ali didn't struggle against big guys - he had far more difficulty with small, fast, highly skilled heavyweights. He excelled against bigger, slower men.

Stop trying to convince him, Jezz.

He don't know and he dont wanna know.

Show him the Jimmy Young fight tho.

koolkc107 wrote:

jezzamundo wrote:

Chepppaaa wrote:

he struggled against big guys, guys who would be considered small compared to wilder and josh.

you dont seem to get the point. i doubt you even fully read what i wrote down, cause you making no commments about it. but thats no problem, i work with non experts who are frozen on their mindset and dont want to evolve.

Again, Ali didn't struggle against big guys - he had far more difficulty with small, fast, highly skilled heavyweights. He excelled against bigger, slower men.

Stop trying to convince him, Jezz.

He don't know and he dont wanna know.

Show him the Jimmy Young fight tho.

I did think of the Young fight, but decided not to mention it because Ali was clearly past his best - still it's a good example of how Ali had more difficulty with speed, skill and tactics, rather than size and strength.

davie wrote:

Jaywheel wrote:
Considering this, it's safe to say that the next HW to rule the division for years is:

http://boxrec.com/boxer/703794

L-E-W-A-N-D-O-W-S-K-I. Damn right. That's 11 letters bitches. Record of 9-0. You read it here first.

Guy's got a total padded record mate,
His last 2 opponents only had 5 and 6 letters respectively.

I'll get on the hype train when he faces a fringe contender like Washington or Dimitrenko, someone with a good solid 10 letter to take him rounds

High risk Low reward like they say. Bound to happen though.